Some Automotive Fun...

Ferrari makes a four-door now, but it's an SUV. Back in 1980, Pininfarina designed the Pinin, which was seriously considered for production.
 

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Just a local Sunday morning story from Sweden:

Obviously, it's gonna be a hard one for drivers not accustomed to Sweden road regulations (I'll let the Swede among us decipher the enigma for the benefit of all*).

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(E45 is a national road, motorway like in some parts that run across Sweden from tip to tip).

carup.se

A-traktor prejade polisen och flydde i 170 km/h | Carup.se

En 16-årig epa-förare försökte smita ifrån polisen. Genom att preja polisen och köra i hastigheter upp till 170 kilometer i timmen. Men jakten fick ett våldsamt slut. Det började en eftermiddag i mars när en polispatrull i Asarum i Blekinge noterade en A-traktor som körde betydligt snabbare än...
carup.se carup.se


*a tax-free drop of Cognac in your Fika drink!
 
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Grey Havoc said:
www.bbc.com

Citroen owners left stranded over airbag safety risk

An estimated 120,000 drivers have been told not to use their vehicles following a fatal accident in France.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
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Yeah, a heavy blow for Citroën. Hopefully they'll recall all vehicles and fix them, so that it will not damage their image too much, but the financial loss will be consequent. A similar story happened to Renault circa 2009 when a driver suddenly lost control of the speed regulator and couldn't slow his vehicle down on the motorway. Renault reacted quickly when thousands of Scenic III vans were sent back to the factory to be fixed, and the problem never reappeared later.
 
Stargazer said:
Yeah, a heavy blow for Citroën. Hopefully they'll recall all vehicles and fix them, so that it will not damage their image too much, but the financial loss will be consequent. A similar story happened to Renault circa 2009 when a driver suddenly lost control of the speed regulator and couldn't slow his vehicle down on the motorway. Renault reacted quickly when thousands of Scenic III vans were sent back to the factory to be fixed, and the problem never reappeared later.
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Citroen has an “image?” That’s news to me as the brand seems to be just a downmarket alternative to Peugeot in a jumble of confusing and overlapping Stellantis brands. You can literally buy what is essentially the same car rebadged as a Fiat, Jeep, Opel/Vauxhall, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, DS or Citroen, all with the same depressing 1.2 liter former PSA three cylinder. Stellantis truly has recreated the badge engineering insanity of 1980s GM but with loathsome and underpowered French petrol engines. Most of us will never understand why PSA bought GM’s ailing European subsidiary or why the Stellantis merger did anything to bolster FCA. In reality, all of Stellantis’ profits essentially come from the RAM and Jeep, and the rest of the operation is essentially a hopeless burden, drawing investment and attention into a terminal European fiasco. There are a few bright spots outside of North America, like Fiat in Brazil and perhaps a few other markets, but the former PSA brands just seem totally dispensable. To put it another way, the new style Citroen C3 sells for 19k and the Jeep Avenger for 26k in the UK, essentially with the same power train and packaging. Why bother with both? The reality is that Stellantis can’t compete with Dacia on price and the limited drivetrain options can’t compete with any of VW’s brands like Skoda. And don’t even get me started on the failure of the youth based “upmarket” DS brand. Every British news article about the airbag recall features an octogenarian granny standing next to a DS3.

Personally, I used to like PSA diesels but even at the 1990s peak of Peugeot for handling and styling, the petrol engines were total rubbish and the steel sprung Citroens were just uglier, softer, worse handling Peugeots. Now that the diesels are dead, there’s no upside to buying a Citroen, DS, Peugeot or Opel/Vauxhall. In North America, there has been a lot of public, and perhaps Stellantis employee/dealer, backlash against the use of a French designed EB based 1.6 liter in the upcoming Jeep Compass and Cherokee hybrid. The current 2.0 Turbo is well thought of and the general public sentiment, right or wrong, is that FCA era engineering was far superior to what is coming out of the former PSA. There is a general loathing of French management and a perhaps incorrect sense blame for choices that lead to underinvestment in North America. The appearance of Citroen Ami electric clown cars on the streets of Washington DC hasn’t helped.
 
TinWing said:
Most of us will never understand why PSA bought GM’s ailing European subsidiary
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Because GM used Opel/Vauxhall as a development centre, spreading expertise gained over GM operations worldwide but charging development costs to Opel/Vauxhall alone. PSA bought the production facilities, which in less than a year were profitable after a decade or so of financial losses according to GM book keeping.
 
TinWing said:
Citroen has an “image?” That’s news to me as the brand seems to be just a downmarket alternative to Peugeot in a jumble of confusing and overlapping Stellantis brands. (...) And don’t even get me started on the failure of the youth based “upmarket” DS brand. (...) The appearance of Citroen Ami electric clown cars on the streets of Washington DC hasn’t helped.
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I didn't have to "get you started" on anything, you seem to have gotten there all by yourself... Gosh, it feels like this whole thing is of quintessential importance to you. Are you in the car business or something? If not, you ought to take a deep breath and refocus on stuff that REALLY matters. No-one is forced to buy a car they don't like. End of story!

So let it be clear that 1°) I was in no way defending or even remotely speaking favorably of Citroën; 2°) I'm a Renault/Dacia/Alpine guy, have always been, and couldn't care less about Stellantis brands on the whole; 3°) this is a "fun" thread first and foremost, and I wish it would remain that way... @Grey Havoc opened Pandora's box with his post, and I regretfully replied to it, which I shouldn't have done. So let's keep it at that!
 

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for the
Graham1973 said:
A tale of tragedy, despair and ultimate triumph in three parts...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I32DfqbGl2Y


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUsI0ypD52k


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wmwkLHTKZY
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I think this illustrates the sort of heartache and expense associated with buying a used car. Just imagine the overall cost if billed at $150/hr plus dealership labor rates.
Arjen said:
Because GM used Opel/Vauxhall as a development centre, spreading expertise gained over GM operations worldwide but charging development costs to Opel/Vauxhall alone. PSA bought the production facilities, which in less than a year were profitable after a decade or so of financial losses according to GM book keeping.
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As it turned out those Opel developed GM products were incredibly unsuccessful - the Cadillac Catera, Saturn LS, Astra, Aura, Holden brand killing ZB Commodore and Buick Regal and Cascada. Not a single success in that long list. Similarly, Opel designed engines seem to have high warranty costs and failure rates, like the Family 0 1.4 turbo. Overall, Opel’s development and unit production costs were just as high as VWs but the unit volumes were much smaller and the brand wasn’t particularly well regarded.

PSA cynically rebadged their own products as Opels. That’s not to suggest that the cars were unattractive, just that PSA products were engineered and built to a lower standard than typical mainstream German cars, hence the lower production costs than the preceding Opels. To put it another way, the joint venture PSA Prince/BMW N13 was probably the finest petrol engine ever produced by PSA but was generally despised in North America in the Mini and was thought to be unreliable.

After all of the layoffs and factory closures, all Opel/Vauxhall amounted to was another dealer network, with nearly the same market positioning as PSAs other brands and no meaningful differentiation. Basically, the same thing happened when PSA took over Chrysler’s former Rootes/Simca operation and rebadged it Talbot. This time around, the product planning was lazier and investment was even lower. On the other hand, PSA products back then were proportionately better cars by the standards of the 1980s and the company actually started off with good intentions towards Talbot. Most people don’t know that the Peugeot 309 was originally developed for the Talbot brand, as was the Citroen AX and the higher performance Peugeot 205 models were engineered by Talbot Sport. Flash forward to our era and there are no performance models left, just endless cookie cutter 3-cylinder products.
 
If anything, GM is one of the leaders of badge engineering. PSA, later Stellantis is another.

"why PSA bought GM’s ailing European subsidiary"

GM milked Opel/Vauxhall for small cars tech with production and sales in Latin America, South Korea, Japan. Big GM cars and pickups never caught on in Europe. GM's Cadillac was repeatedly put forward as a premium brand in Europe but failed on build quality and incompatability with what European consumers went for, meanwhile possible premium brand Saab was left to wither.
European GM may have had quality issues, but big money was spent on car and engine development anyway.
Synergy with GM-US bigger cars for the European market was always a dot on the horizon, but those big cars found few buyers in Europe. Tech transfer between the European plants and GM worldwide was effectively a one-way street, paid for by the European operations.
PSA saw an opportunity to gain factories to churn out its own cars, and an expanded dealer network to sell them. Some of those factories have now been closed, not all.
 
Graham1973 said:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT5pkGt0QcI
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You’d assume that a Miata competitor would have an easy operating convertible top that you could put down with one hand while never leaving the drivers seat. You would be very wrong. GM really engineered a lousy convertible top on the Solstice/Sky. I don’t know if the reputation for leaks is warranted but the top was quirky to operate and very space inefficient, taking up the entire rear hinged trunk. In contrast, the contemporary Miata had the option of a clever folding hardtop that fit into the same space as the softtop.

Amazingly, despite under engineering the top, GM over engineered the structure along the same lines as a Corvette and basic chassis could have easily taken the LS3 V8. Oddly for a traditionally accountant lead company like GM, the numbers never made sense for this car. Basically, it cost $30,000 to manufacture a car with a base MSRP of $20,000. Those losses could never have been mitigated by economies of scales, even if the unrealistic sales targets had been consistently maintained.
 
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targetpractice said:
Saw my first Roma today and it is a GORGEOUS thing, it has a ton of presence. Amalfi looks lovely, as well.
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I'm very fond of the Roma, it is very elegant and yet it has the distinct Ferrari touch. The Amalfi however, just like the 12cilindri and the F80 looks too technical, too clinical and the Ferrari touch is missing. Especially compared to the individual predecessors (Roma, 812 and LaFerrari)
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EmoBirb said:
I'm very fond of the Roma, it is very elegant and yet it has the distinct Ferrari touch. The Amalfi however, just like the 12cilindri and the F80 looks too technical, too clinical and the Ferrari touch is missing. Especially compared to the individual predecessors (Roma, 812 and LaFerrari)
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I read somewhere that the Ferrari design boss doesn't think cars should have faces, which explains the recent trend.
 
Grey Havoc said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Driver charged over electric Jaguar that ‘went rogue’ on motorway

The vehicle was surrounded by police cars for 35 minutes before it was finally boxed in and brought to a safe stop
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
(Registration or subscription may be required)

www.independent.co.uk

Driver who claimed electric car ‘went rogue’ at 100mph charged with fraud

Nathan Owen claimed the £80k car suffered an ‘electrical fault’, causing its brakes to fail
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
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I love the fact that he was "charged" with fraud...
 
targetpractice said:
I read somewhere that the Ferrari design boss doesn't think cars should have faces, which explains the recent trend.
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Then he's an idiot. No-one wants to spend hundreds of thousands of bucks on a car with no personality. And what best expresses personality, besides one's face? It's what sets you apart from the rest, and in such a competitive market as the automotive one, it's important to have an identity that is recognized right away. When I'm on the motorway, I like being able to tell at a quick glance in the view mirror what car model is behind me. If all cars look the same, what's the point? Those new Ferraris are stylish, but they are also bland, unremarkable... I call that the "Tesla syndrome"—trying so hard to create a car that will appeal to a maximum of people that the final product, though elegant, is pretty dull...
 
Stargazer said:
Then he's an idiot. No-one wants to spend hundreds of thousands of bucks on a car with no personality. And what best expresses personality, besides one's face? It's what sets you apart from the rest, and in such a competitive market as the automotive one, it's important to have an identity that is recognized right away. When I'm on the motorway, I like being able to tell at a quick glance in the view mirror what car model is behind me. If all cars look the same, what's the point? Those new Ferraris are stylish, but they are also bland, unremarkable... I call that the "Tesla syndrome"—trying so hard to create a car that will appeal to a maximum of people that the final product, though elegant, is pretty dull...
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There's also something to be said about striking a balance between this and whatever the poopEmoji.jpg Lexus are doing at the extreme with their scowling faces. To be fair, it's the selling point for that car make. I actually prefer the Over Nine Thousand Imperial Stormtrooper Variants car design aesthetic to that, so I'll just chalk it up to personality differences.
 
Automotive fun in that the interior's nice and sitting in it, you can't see the exterior.

Bentley EXP 15 Concept, just revealed today. From the front it looks like a Kia EV crossed with a cheese grater, from the rear it looks like a Polestar, and overall it's lit like a Christmas tree. Take the wheels off and it could be cruising the skies of Coruscant in Andor.

It must be emphasised that this is a concept, not a prototype. As such it's meant to introduce ideas and gauge the reactions of likely customers.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLhd7s7TkF0&t=7s&ab_channel=TopGear
 
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