Small UAS / Drones and related general thread - NOT Swarming ones.

TomcatViP said:
And Ukraine armies lack mobility. (Good luck flying thousand of quadcopters/FPS drones each day with a FLOT moving several dozen of Km every days)
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Do keep in mind that the Ukrainians are fighting a defensive war with the goal of forcing out the Russians and restoring their internationally agreed upon 1991 borders.
 
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Well the point is that the current drone evolved across a relatively static front, and that a lot of the practices of that style of warfare would not carry over well to a more fluid situation.

IMO, the biggest issue is preventing opponent UAVs from killing your units, not mirroring the same attack mechanisms. So long as howitzers can survive, throwing artillery is always going to be a far more time sensitive way to hit targets rather than waiting for FPV drones. The key goal of US drones should be IMO ISR and counter ISR, because the main enabler of artillery and FPV swarms (and in the near future fully autonomous one way UAVs/loitering munitions) is group2/3 drones acting as spotters. If you can protect yourself against ISR and your vehicles have some kind of point defense along with dedicated C-UAV air defense escort vehicles, I would argue artillery is still the far more efficient mechanism for engaging targets rather than using millions of commercial grade UAVs (and if they are fully autonomous I question whether they are still sold at commercial prices).

So to my mind the focus should be staying left of UAV boom defensively (although that will also involve aggressive ISR and targeting of opposing UAV forces) and just let long range precision fires do their thing. FPVs have a role to play too, but iMO the goal should not be equality with opponent systems but rather synergy with own fire capabilities: what targets are hard for direct fire to engage, due to cover, range, or other considerations? Build enough loitering munition those engagement scenarios. But that probably will be nothing like 1::1 with what Ukraine and Russia are doing, and it will probably involve more sophisticated platforms with a higher cost point but far more automation.
 
In regards to artillery in Ukraine, the Ukrainian army has been systematically locating and destroying Russian artillery units (They've developed specialised munitions for destroying the gun barrels) and their associated logistics infrastructure.
 
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Colonial-Marine said:
I can't help but feel the media analysis that the US is behind in Ukraine in drone production is missing a lot of points. The vast majority of those FPV drones are of the trashfire spam variety which are expended in massive numbers in Ukraine. Similarly huge numbers of such drones would not be very useful in the conflict with Iran and they don't have a particularly long shelf-life anyway so it wouldn't make sense to stockpile millions of them versus producing as needed.
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Disagree. If Ukraine was to point <10% of its FP-1 drones to Iran's refineries and power stations, Iran would want a ceasefire very quickly indeed. Iran's air defences are nowhere near as good as Russia's, certainly not now. They would be far more effective. I think China has likely advised Iran not to respond to the Caspian Sea incident under any circumstances because of this.
 
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Forest Green said:
Disagree. If Ukraine was to point <10% of its FP-1 drones to Iran's refineries and power stations, Iran would want a ceasefire very quickly indeed. Iran's air defences are nowhere near as good as Russia's, certainly not now. They would be far more effective. I thing China has likely advised Iran not to respond to the Caspian Sea incident under any circumstances because of this.
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The same refineries, power stations, and infrastructure targets the US has been hesitant to attack (despite Trump's threats) due to the politics of this war? I don't see why Ukraine would be allowed to do so.
The original unrealistic goal of deposing of Iran's regime through airpower and stand-off weapons alone is still not feasible even with countless drones.

I'd have to echo a lot of Josh_TN's sentiment about where the US focus in this sector should be. Trying to duplicate the scale of Ukrainian mass production efforts would only be useful so far as if we were actively fighting a defensive war of attrition.
 
The saudi backed yemeni forces have unveiled their own hybrid Shahed/Geran/Lucas type OWA drone called the Eiban.
The mass produced version appears to use 2 control surfaces instead of the usual 4.
In terms of both its size & its 2 cyl engine it looks closer to the Shahed-131/Lucas.
https://twitter.com/x/status/2082521108448780659
 

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Via BBC World News:

Bethany Bell said:
A drone carrying an explosive device has been found at a German airport, police say.

A robot was deployed at Leipzig/Halle Airport after the device was spotted by an employee near Ukrainian cargo planes overnight, according to Saxony police.

A second unidentified object then collided with a cargo aircraft near the same airport. Minor damage was detected on the aircraft after it landed in Hanover.

German airports are on high alert following a series of unauthorised drone flights in recent months over sensitive sites including military bases, airports, energy terminals, seaports and logistics companies. Police have warned that the overflights could have been organised by Russian agents.

Leipzig/Halle Airport in eastern Germany is used by the Germany military and Nato allies for the transport of military goods and also serves as a base for Ukraine's Antonov Airlines - which carry most of the country's aerial cargo.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvlg4q48l3o
 
A lot of these drones spotted intruding in German airspace I understand are being launched from Russian shadow-fleet ships in the Baltic Sea, something has got to be done to interdict them.
 
I suspect plenty of USVs are launched by local drone enthusiasts paid in crypto. But the ships probably contributed as well.
 
Josh_TN said:
I suspect plenty of USVs are launched by local drone enthusiasts paid in crypto. But the ships probably contributed as well.
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I'd say that it's both, one thing that can be done is to closely monitor these shadow-vessels so if they launch something it can be intercepted.
 
Josh_TN said:
the biggest issue is preventing opponent UAVs from killing your units, not mirroring the same attack mechanisms. So long as howitzers can survive, throwing artillery is always going to be a far more time sensitive way to hit targets rather than waiting for FPV drones. The key goal of US drones should be IMO ISR and counter ISR
So to my mind the focus should be staying left of UAV boom defensively (although that will also involve aggressive ISR and targeting of opposing UAV forces) and just let long range precision fires do their thing. FPVs have a role to play too
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I agree, but this dynamic is precisely what makes FPVs economically attractive and UAVs militarily revolutionary. Suppose an enemy with some howitzers, tanks, infantry, and FPV launch posts; and a friendly with the same library of weapons.

Only your own aerial drones can effectively search for and suppress the enemy's key long range scouting and fires. The optimal split between artillery+midrange drones vs FPVs vs midrange FPVs is debatable, but in the current Russo-Ukrainian war, the non-UAV units disperse and become economically unattractive for artillery shells, so they're serviced with FPVs which artillery is reserved for the fortified posts where FPV pilots and supplies are based.

So FPVs become the entry-level minimum to wage war, and they have a low barrier to entry and a high marginal benefit. The higher capital investments are significant, but not exactly required.
 
Josh_TN said:
But that probably will be nothing like 1::1 with what Ukraine and Russia are doing, and it will probably involve more sophisticated platforms with a higher cost point but far more automation.
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With the United "land forces is disaster" States, the right drone logic is USAF with tiny planes and robot airborne.

Drone power is air power, if the middle/long strike campaign have not illustrated heavily already.

Drones can provide mass, persistence, density, robustness, precision and closeness to air power.

Instead of bombing a tunnel entrance only to see opponent dig it out when you fly out. Have swarms tag team to persist, and drop robots to deny the land.

There is a lot of interesting stuff possible with integrating different scales in air vehicles. Consider an 5th gen as AWACs directing a drone swarm to air superiority another swarm, all sort of motherships and drone search and air strike destroy concepts.

Personally, I'd invest in the following, beyond what has been announced, from a USAF centric view:
1. Counter-Micro air vehicle sensor and combat battle management systems. Need to detect and defeat, by interception and launch site destruction.
2. Reusable micro turbojets vehicles, including aerial refueling/recovery. A high efficiency mothership can launch a swarm and clear out the air space against any mass-swarm based tactic.
3. Develop landing to persist drones, as well as sensors, mines, missile launchers, and support complexes that can be delivered like munitions (not transport aircraft dependent). Basically robo airborne that can disrupt opponent supply line anywhere anytime. "CAS" drones outside of this context on the other hand is not very useful.
4. Develop air resupplied, robust forward basing for drone forces. When fully developed, it should be able to serve as FARP for larger aircraft.
5. Develop air dropped anti-tunnel robotics. Clearly useful in the current campaign.

Josh_TN said:
Well the point is that the current drone evolved across a relatively static front, and that a lot of the practices of that style of warfare would not carry over well to a more fluid situation.
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It seems like the implication is that the US should conduct land maneuver warfare, when it is the least used and perhaps the least useful option given its strategic location and political structure.

It is fun when you can just summon howitzers with a stock of shells or Merkava just by driving an hour. It is a completely different story when it comes out of a C-17, when the plane could be something with far more combat power to mass ratio.
 
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The Trouw piece mostly says 'we don't know how many of the purported drone sightings involve drones, nor to which extent Russia is involved'.

Absence of proof =/= proof of absence.
There is proof of Russian drone operations over Eastern Europe:
Een uitzondering vormen incidenten in Polen, Roemenië en Moldavië, waar afgelopen maanden wel degelijk Russische drones het luchtruim binnendrongen. Er werden bijvoorbeeld brokstukken gevonden en in Polen schoten Nederlandse F-35’s Russische drones uit de lucht.
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Translation:
Incidents in Poland, Romania, and Moldova constitute an exception, where Russian drones did indeed enter airspace in recent months. For example, debris was found, and in Poland, Dutch F-35s shot down Russian drones.
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Arjen said:
The Trouw piece mostly says 'we don't know how many of the purported drone sightings involve drones, nor to which extent Russia is involved'.

Absence of proof =/= proof of absence.
There is proof of Russian drone operations over Eastern Europe:

Translation:
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Given with certainty its being paroted by MSM and politicians one would expect at least a shred of proof. But nothing 'trust us Bro'

Anyone rember the whole drone hysteria in US , turned out to be absolute BS , but was at the time hyped up



https://www.dronewatch.eu/after-mon...o-evidence-of-drones-over-copenhagen-airport/
https://www.dronewatch.eu/61-european-drone-sightings-analysed-heres-what-we-know/
https://uavcoach.com/europe-drone-sightings/


Maybe this false flag Ukraine is staging in Germany could do with a HD picture

Means, motive, and opportunity , a drone they threw down on tarmac next to Ukrainan cargo lifter , easyest stage ever

HPGYkmjXsAAhBDg.jpg
 
Mr.T said:
Maybe this false flag Ukraine is staging in Germany could do with a HD picture

Means, motive, and opportunity , a drone they threw down on tarmac next to Ukrainan cargo lifter , easyest stage ever
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No proof of that either :confused:
Thank you for alerting me to Wiebe de Jager's dronewatch.eu site.
What is the source of the selfie/drone pic?
 
Arjen said:
No proof of that either :confused:
Thank you for alerting me to Wiebe de Jager's dronewatch.eu site.
What is the source of the selfie/drone pic?
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Actual published photo by German outlet Bild. I imagine above photo by the Sun is after AI worked it over.

''It was hovering between two Ukrainian An-124 cargo planes which led to the workers rushing to try and bring it down.
One employee managed to get close enough so he could bravely kick the drone as it was flying near him, according to DPA, Germany‘s largest news agency.''
* note the kung fu kicking action happened 4 hours after drone was first seen lying about the tarmac ;)

eff99675be5374db5b684fe0c7b5ea8b.jpg
 
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As if logistics work wasn't hellish enough, what a mess that is to deal with.

The first vehicle in the column ought to have a mine flail just for flaying drones on the road at this point.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
As if logistics work wasn't hellish enough, what a mess that is to deal with.

The first vehicle in the column ought to have a mine flail just for flaying drones on the road at this point.
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Sounds like a job for artillery. If the drones are so cheap that artillery isn't cost efficient.....oh that'd really be something.

edit: saw the extended footage..... flamethrower drone to the rescue
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1vlvs51/russian_drone_records_ukrainian_waiterambush
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1vlvs51/russian_drone_records_ukrainian_waiterambush/
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1vp4plb/ru_pov_russian_drone_hides_outside_the_field_of
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1vp4plb/ru_pov_russian_drone_hides_outside_the_field_of/


So now much better hiding positions are used, and pinhole visual plus acoustic sensors are used.

Personally I've always found the "sit near/on road" ambush locations are pretty bad in terms of stealth. I thought off route mines are the way because I'm too cheap and wanted minimum parts, but this probably is much better from a command and control perspective.
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Perhaps soon there'd be drone noise makers to jam the acoustic information channel.
 
I gather that Ukraine has recently rendered a Tu-95MS unflyable at the Engels-2 airbase using a MICH-2000 strike drone (Apparently based on the reverse-engineered Chinese ZTK-150 drone).
 

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