Saab Viggen for the RAF?

[Hood]

Isn't Viggen way more expensive than Jaguar though? So numbers would be much less

Is that by production cost or due to the imported avionics etc. or R&D amortisation? Viggen had a pretty respectable production run (329).

The point I was trying to make is that in an ideal situation (governments are backing up the development 100% all the times), the cooperation will indeed produce aircraft that will cost less per piece. Unfortunately, these ideal situations were few and far between. Eg. AFVG fisaco - there is no way that respective governments can return the clock and start anew, but they will start with now greater prices of everything. Or the MRCA program, that saw Belgium and Canada withdraw early on, followed by Nehterlands.
Eurofighter - French being the part of it, then retreating, Germans being in, then wanting the smaller and cheaper A/C, forcing UK to make their own delta-canard prototype, etc.
Time = money, and, boy, were they wasting it or what.

Political priorities change, but even if a nation withdraws the project might still survive - a home grown is often cancelled and then all the work is sidelined. Saying that a lot of multinational projects, especially armoured vehicles, in this period got to prototype stage but still floundered and were cancelled.
The rampant inflation of the 60s and 70s didn't help, if you started again the base cost was always going to be higher and the new technology that came along since you started the original project and can now incorporate into the second design means more costs too.

The big bonus is that you don't need to pay the hefty upfront R&D costs and can share the load - that's really what was most attractive. Winning a decent workshare was a negative reaction that had to be overcome but if you were a big player like the UK or France then usually they could carve themselves a decent share.

Even Hawk at one point might have been Anglo-Italian or Anglo-Australian or Anglo-Italian-Australian. All combinations were followed, I think its notable that Sweden is about the only Western European nation that was never invited into a collaboration - presumably due to political considerations for neutrality etc. despite having acquired some advanced British kit (Bloodhound, Skyflash) and of course Bulldog and Britain investigating the S-Tank and buying Carl Gustavs etc.

I wonder, if Sweden could produce sufficient number of Viggens for UK, even with cooperation with British companies. Other SAAB jets have been produced mostly for the small airforces, which activities are not as extensive, as RAF.

I think politically SAAB would find it too difficult to sell Viggen to a NATO nation directly, hence why licence-production is more likely. In any event we know that SAAB looked at three potential versions tailored to the RAF so we know the idea of cooperation with a NATO member was deemed feasible.

I thought Viggen could use sky flash?!

Yes it could, my comment was more that it could use Skyflash from the off, unlike Phantom for example. There would be a lot of Phantom-Viggen overlap with an UK AJ37, which is probably why it wouldn't be done, but the addition of a multi-role radar would make it much more formidable that the historical Jaguar GR.1/3 in ground attack - though again at risk of duplicating Tornado in some roles.

 

[tomo pauk]

Yes it could, my comment was more that it could use Skyflash from the off, unlike Phantom for example. There would be a lot of Phantom-Viggen overlap with an UK AJ37, which is probably why it wouldn't be done, but the addition of a multi-role radar would make it much more formidable that the historical Jaguar GR.1/3 in ground attack - though again at risk of duplicating Tornado in some roles.

With Viggen licence-produced in the UK (with some parts shipped from Sweden?), there is no need to go with MRCA/Tornado.
Go with delta-canard by late 1970s instead, so it is in service by late 1980s at least? In the meantime, adopt the JA-37 (fighter radar, Skyflash, cannon etc.).

 

[zen]

Arguably the Viggen ought to be cheaper to run and thus a natural successor to QRA Lightnings.

Flexibility for the MRI missions makes it more ideal than Jaguar.

Navalisation might be more vexing.

The more radical twin 'double barrel' would be instead of MRCA and likely ADV as well. But potentially a better platform for AI.24.....which ever version of that comes about.

 

[uk 75]

The Viggen served the Swedes in strike, air defence and maritime strike versions. These would have been adaptable to UK requirements.
If British Aerospace had replaced BAC and HS in the 1960s Viggen would have been an ideal big programme.
Losing AFVG and Jaguar and turning to Viggen would have made sense to a Labour Government for whom Sweden was a model state.
Though France might have been annoyed the Belgians, Danes, Dutch and Norwegians in NATO might have bought the resulting aircraft.
Even France might have been glad to build Jaguar as an Alpha Jet precursor and focus on Mirage for the AdA..
Collaboration with France on Concorde and Airbus could have been offered as a substitute.

 

[zen]

Would be interesting as part of a wider package, such as S-Tank, and reciprocal Sea Dart for the Swedes. Possibly Sea Wolf or a Land Wolf variant could result as well.

Possibility if using variant of Pegasus that a limited number of Harriers are purchased.

And an 'under the table' deal on nuclear cleared Viggen......

A UK-Swedish Viggen package might sway India.

Would be ironic if benefited Airbus.

 

[red admiral]

Is that by production cost or due to the imported avionics etc. or R&D amortisation? Viggen had a pretty respectable production run (329).

Viggen is quite a lot bigger, more complex (flight envelope, radar etc) and produced in fewer numbers than Jaguar. I'd be amazed if production or operational costs weren't significantly higher.

The R&D costs from Saab for the UK modded Viggens aren't non-trivial

It's not that Viggen isn't "better" than Jaguar but it would have sacrificed numbers (and defence industry). If there was more money then just buy more Tornados instead that are "better" again

 

[zen]

I don't think the Swedes or SEPCAT had any real running cost data until the 1970's.
But the choice for Viggen is really either instead of P.1154 or the F4M, as the shift to turn the supersonic trainer into a MRI platform is later on.
Strictly the ideal moment is at yhe point of cancellation if the P.1154.

And in terms of numbers, like with the Jaguar. The MRI mission set dictates about 175 single seater and 25 dual seat trainers.
Some 200 as a minimum figure this is likely to be added to as being cheaper to run than a Lightning or an F4. Hence why I suggest something like a 400 airframe total for the UK.

So local production and a figure slightly higher than Swedish orders. The result is not likely to be as bad as some are trying to suggest.

 

[Silencer1]

Could we imagine such a situation, that UK withdaw from MRCA project just after first "Tornado" made a maiden flight? So, UK have all experience in design/cooperation/prodcution of this aircraft.
But, instead of continue to participate in Panavia Gmbh' efforts, it decided to purchase "Viggen" or built it in cooperation with SAAB. So, Germany and Italy could use Tornado IDS in its dedicated role in Europe.
However, Great Britain uses SAAB Viggen in the same theatre as interdictor/strike and, domestically, as interceptor - instead of Tornado ADV, which has been in real life produced only for UK.
So, I wonder, if the fixed-wing "Viggen" could perform same missions as variable-geometry "Tornado" as strike aircraft, with the low-level penetration capabilities and good take-off/landing characteristics?
This is just my "what if" version, based on limited knowledge.
P.S. Curiously, both "Tornado" and "Viggen" have a rare common feature - thrust reversers. Honestly, I couldn't remeber any modern combat jet with such feature.

 

[Archibald]

Better to throw the Jaguar under the Viggen bus, than the Tornado. Viggen is right between the two, performance wise. Can't replace the Tornado, but buries the Jaguar for sure.

 

[blockhaj]

Saab 37XE − Export, England

Not to be confused with the later Saab 37E − Eurofighter project.

I just came by to show the Aussie variant, Saab 37AU: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/saab-37au-fighter-viggen-a21-−-australian-ja-37-derivative-1970-−-1976.42066/#post-617750

 

[blockhaj]

Here, from some book.

 

[Scott Kenny]

For engine, if at all possible, get the straight-through Pegasus variant. IIRC 28klbs thrust dry, and with that huge bypass ratio it made 56klbs in afterburner(!)

 

[Scott Kenny]

More recent read-through.

Whilst that square root of number of partners is often quoted it doesn't give a great match to available data. There are other better methods.

But broadly, total combined programme costs are higher, but still less than two separate programmes. This advantage reduces for more partners, but generally some partners are bigger than others so it is complicated.

That's a convenient rule of thumb to use, however.

Any luck finding those references for better cost models?

probably a good rough estimate could be made using multiplying the percentage of labor cost represented by management by the number of partners as each will have their own management teams..just as a floor

This, but number of countries participating +1, for the overall manglement team.