Russian X Engine Development

HalfACupOfRice

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Heya yall

I'm sure that many of you are aware of the ongoing debate regarding the origin of the Russian A-85-A3 (or 2A12-3 or 12N360) X-12 engine, notable for being the engine for the Armata universal platform.
For those out of the loop, there are many claims that refer to the engine being "based", "copied", or "modified from" a 'German WWII tank engine', likely referring to the SGP Sla 16 (or Porsche Type 203) X-16 engine. Yet most of these claims seem to reference only a few articles and blog posts that don't provide documentation or further sources to support the idea.

I was hoping if anyone could provide any information that could further elaborate on the development of the A-85-A3 and in turn perhaps shed some light on what was the design philosophy behind the Russians opting to adopt a X configuration engine for the Armata series.

Thanks
HalfACupOfRice
 
Heya yall

I'm sure that many of you are aware of the ongoing debate regarding the origin of the Russian A-85-A3 (or 2A12-3 or 12N360) X-12 engine, notable for being the engine for the Armata universal platform.
For those out of the loop, there are many claims that refer to the engine being "based", "copied", or "modified from" a 'German WWII tank engine', likely referring to the SGP Sla 16 (or Porsche Type 203) X-16 engine. Yet most of these claims seem to reference only a few articles and blog posts that don't provide documentation or further sources to support the idea.

I was hoping if anyone could provide any information that could further elaborate on the development of the A-85-A3 and in turn perhaps shed some light on what was the design philosophy behind the Russians opting to adopt a X configuration engine for the Armata series.

Thanks
HalfACupOfRice
The design philosophy was definitely driven by packaging thoughts. That engine is very compact if you can find a picture of it outside the Armata. Unfortunately, the compact design also makes it very hard to work on, lots of stuff to remove to get to split the case.
 
I have seen claims that the Armata powerplant is related to the earlier German unit but I have also seen claims that the L60 is a knockoff of the Ju-87 Stuka engine too.

IMHO, apart from layout and perhaps a little design phylosophy, nothing in the way of proof has come to light.

In other words, the claims are just vapid gas (Hot air).
 
The design philosophy was definitely driven by packaging thoughts. That engine is very compact if you can find a picture of it outside the Armata. Unfortunately, the compact design also makes it very hard to work on, lots of stuff to remove to get to split the case.

X-block the final boss of boxers. 50 years of R&D has yet to break this stallion.

1691250629217.png

Roughly the size of the V-84/V-92 if it were a cube, which isn't say much given they're both V-12s, but he's pretty powerful. It's substantially lower in height, but is about as wide as V-2 block is tall, which isn't a big deal because height is the most important dimension to control for a battle tank.
 
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The Khlopotov photo shown here is the 12ChN 15/16 developed around 1974-77 and first tested on a T-72. Here's some other views when it was displayed at the Yekaterinburg/Nizhni-Tagil show in 2000. 12ChN 15~16.jpg
 
A-85 has absolutely no real link to Sla 16 aside from them both being X type diesels. The dimensions, number of cylinders, angles and accessories are completely different.

A-85 started as the 2V program started under ChTZ in 1970, with the first 2V-16-1 delivered for trials in 1976. 2V-16 is designed as two V8s connected together and 2V-12 as two V6 connected together, the idea being to provide compact X engines in the 1200-1500hp class for future tanks, and common V6 and V8s for lighter platforms. However, the tooling and technology required to mass produce such compact engines came from the West, and due to a lack of interest from tank design bureaus and the Soviet government, this technology was not acquired until 1990. Eventually 2V-12 evolved into the 2V-12-3, and was also named A-85-3. With different intercooler and turbocharger configurations, this engine could have the following characteristics:
1691262138180.png
Rows from top to bottom: power (hp), rpm at max power (rpm), specific fuel consumption (g/hp/hr), volumic power density (hp/m3), massic power density (kg/hp), and configuration. Armata's A-85-3 is set for 1500hp.

Two powerpacks were designed and tested in tanks, MTU-1 (with 2V12) and MTU-2:

1691262390197.png
MTU-1 had a volume of 4m3, MTU-2 of 3.6-3.7 m3 (yes, even with the longer engine due to different accessories/packaging). Both quite small, respectively similar volume and slightly smaller volume than Europowerpack. Armata's powerpack is bigger than both however. MTU-2 had a hydromechanical transmission and hydrovolumetric steering elements, similar to Leo 2's transmission for example, and quite unusual in Soviet and Russian production tanks.

These powerpacks were tested in Object 186 (a welded turret T-72B with MTU-1), Object 785 (a T-80 with a 130mm rifled gun and MTU-1/2), some Object 187 prototypes, and Object 219RD (T-80UD with MTU-1/2).

 
X-block the final boss of boxers. 50 years of R&D has yet to break this stallion.

View attachment 705443

Roughly the size of the V-84/V-92 if it were a cube, which isn't say much given they're both V-12s, but he's pretty powerful. It's substantially lower in height, but is about as wide as V-2 block is tall, which isn't a big deal because height is the most important dimension to control for a battle tank.
The problem is that with an X configuration, you need to either pull the cylinder heads or pull intake and exhaust manifolds to split the crankcase.

With a boxer engine, you don't have to pull the cylinders or cylinder heads to split the crankcase.

Yes, in either case it's a major repair to split the crankcase, so the combat repair is to pull the entire power pack out and replace with a fresh engine. But at the higher maintenance level (I'm not sure what organization level overhauls engines in the Army), that X engine adds a lot more labor hours to disassemble.

If I was building a piston engine for a tank, I'd use the 2-stroke opposed piston type, as used in the T-64 or the new Cummins engine for the M88A2 recovery vehicle. Or like "Old Reliable" Fairbanks-Morse 38D 8 1/8"s as used in subs. Those are very compact for their power output.
 
Yeah that's fair cop, I was mostly trying to be alliterative.

A-85/12N360's main issue is catching on fire and being hard to manufacture from what I've read. Maintenance is a more distant problem.

From a tank's perspective, the best option is to transverse mount a rotated V (so a <? a >?), but the 12N360/A-85 series has a substantially higher power density than the relatively anemic V-2 and friends. Which is how it manages to be almost twice as powerful in the same cube package (not a particularly amazing feat, V-2 is a very low HP per cylinder to achieve absurd reliability) and its main purpose for existing.

A pair of V-84s wouldn't really be the same and require more internal cube to be devoted to engines anyway.
 
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A-85 has absolutely no real link to Sla 16 aside from them both being X type diesels. The dimensions, number of cylinders, angles and accessories are completely different.

A-85 started as the 2V program started under ChTZ in 1970, with the first 2V-16-1 delivered for trials in 1976. 2V-16 is designed as two V8s connected together and 2V-12 as two V6 connected together, the idea being to provide compact X engines in the 1200-1500hp class for future tanks, and common V6 and V8s for lighter platforms. However, the tooling and technology required to mass produce such compact engines came from the West, and due to a lack of interest from tank design bureaus and the Soviet government, this technology was not acquired until 1990. Eventually 2V-12 evolved into the 2V-12-3, and was also named A-85-3. With different intercooler and turbocharger configurations, this engine could have the following characteristics:
View attachment 705454
Rows from top to bottom: power (hp), rpm at max power (rpm), specific fuel consumption (g/hp/hr), volumic power density (hp/m3), massic power density (kg/hp), and configuration. Armata's A-85-3 is set for 1500hp.

Two powerpacks were designed and tested in tanks, MTU-1 (with 2V12) and MTU-2:

View attachment 705455
MTU-1 had a volume of 4m3, MTU-2 of 3.6-3.7 m3 (yes, even with the longer engine due to different accessories/packaging). Both quite small, respectively similar volume and slightly smaller volume than Europowerpack. Armata's powerpack is bigger than both however. MTU-2 had a hydromechanical transmission and hydrovolumetric steering elements, similar to Leo 2's transmission for example, and quite unusual in Soviet and Russian production tanks.

These powerpacks were tested in Object 186 (a welded turret T-72B with MTU-1), Object 785 (a T-80 with a 130mm rifled gun and MTU-1/2), some Object 187 prototypes, and Object 219RD (T-80UD with MTU-1/2).

Thanks for the insight! Do you know if ChTZ's plan was to always pursue a X configuration design for a new high power engine or if there were other options considered during the development process?
My understanding is that the Soviets always preferred having a compact powerpack in their MBTs, but was such a utmost design consideration to warrant going with a X configuration? Or were they willing to compromise with a more conventional parallel mounted high displacement V-12?

Also from what I've mostly seen, most people who seem to be referencing this article as proof of a link between the A-85-3A and the SGP Sla 16:
https://topwar.ru/207749-armaty-ne-budet-mozhno-rashoditsja.html
In which the article also states that the original A-85-3A was:
"created by the Transdiesel Design Bureau in the early 90s as a unit for compressor oil and gas pumping stations based on the German X-shaped Simmering SLA 16 engine"
This claim has seemed to go so far that even the Tank Museum in its T-14 Armata video paraphrased the original wording of the article above.
 
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My understanding is that the Soviets always preferred having a compact powerpack in their MBTs, but was such a utmost design consideration to warrant going with a X configuration? Or were they willing to compromise with a more conventional parallel mounted high displacement V-12?
Remember that the T-14 is supposed to share a chassis with the T-15 IFV. So there's a need to have a fairly compact engine to make space for troops in the back, or to leave space for the troops to exit the back.
 
Remember that the T-14 is supposed to share a chassis with the T-15 IFV. So there's a need to have a fairly compact engine to make space for troops in the back, or to leave space for the troops to exit the back.

I'd think a "compact engine" would make less, not more, space for troops if you're putting troops in the engine bay. Regardless, they aren't installing seats in the engine bay of a T-14 hull and T-15's engine is front mounted...

It's compact because having a small engine is a good thing, for somewhat obvious reasons, just like how having small crew spaces and small amounts of ammunition are good things. Armor is heavy and protecting smaller areas makes the tank lighter. The GATBU was somewhat obsessed with fitting the maximum protection in a 40-ton hull due to bridging, maintenance, and tank transporter requirements not changing much between T-54A and T-72B.

The design concerns for the A-85 series and the driving factors of then-futuristic tanks like T-72BU/Object 188 and T-84/Object 219 were primarily keeping the vehicle under 50 tons, making it more mobile with more powerful engines, and retaining the same cube of armored volume (or less) for the powerpack so that more armor can be crammed into a bigger hull.

It wasn't until the early 80's that the GATBU felt comfortable enough to push for a >50-tons MBT in the Object 195, -477, etc. Object 148 being a redo of Object 195 with a simplified fire control system and 2A82 gun retains the same powerpack. Thus, modern Russian armor is heavier, larger, and better protected through greater compartmentalization than that of the T-72 and its V-2 powered ancestors.

My understanding is that the Soviets always preferred having a compact powerpack in their MBTs, but was such a utmost design consideration to warrant going with a X configuration? Or were they willing to compromise with a more conventional parallel mounted high displacement V-12?

The 2V series were parallel V-12 and V-16 I think? The designation may simply have been disinformation to hide it was an X though.

Ultimately they were required to be X because it was one of the few ways, barring new metallurgy or improved FADECs which were still futuristic in 1970, that the T-80 series tank would be able to get new power within the same volumetric cube. The A-85/2V16 were originally designed for a futuristic modification of the T-80/T-72 pair to dieselize the -80B and double the power output of the V-84 engine.

As Elan Vital noted, the engines would be mated into the MTU series powerpacks by ChTZ, and the LKZ -219RD ended up a bit too heavy for the GATBU's liking. So, whereas a more powerful V or H engine would require a larger hull to fit in the T-80/T-72, an X-block could be fit in the V-block's cube. Barely.


tl;dr I don't think the 2V series began as a "T-95" engine considering the future tank of the USSR was going to be the T-80, it was probably slated for some then-notional incremental upgrade of the T-80, one that would hopefully slot in at around the 40 tons range. The X configuration was just the easiest way to get more power without significant modifications to the hull.
 
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I'd think a "compact engine" would make less, not more, space for troops if you're putting troops in the engine bay. Regardless, they aren't installing seats in the engine bay of a T-14 hull and T-15's engine is front mounted...
Didn't realize that they'd made that big a change between the two, I thought they were more like Merkava with the engine up front.
 
Didn't realize that they'd made that big a change between the two, I thought they were more like Merkava with the engine up front.

T-15 "shares" a "hull" with T-14 in the same sense that Merkava shares one with Namer. The requirements of an IFV are so radically different from a tank that all cost savings vanish due to labor hours needed to make the modifications necessary to perform the duties.

Regardless, the 12N360 is not compact in any real sense of the word, like Achzarit's Detroit Diesel, it's merely compact relative to a V12 like the V-2, which it approximates about two of. It's a very similar volumetric cube to the V-84 series but is wider than it is tall rather than tall than it is wide. The complete power unit is still comparable in size to the Europowerpack or whatever Merkava uses. A-85 is an attempt to get the V-2's fairly absurd reliability metrics into a normal size diesel. The V-2 and its descendants, being a 40 liter displacement engines, are just gigantic for what they put out.
 
T-15 "shares" a "hull" with T-14 in the same sense that Merkava shares one with Namer. The requirements of an IFV are so radically different from a tank that all cost savings vanish due to labor hours needed to make the modifications necessary to perform
I had thought that they'd put the engine up front in both T-14 and T-15, same way the Merkava and Namer are built. My bad.
 
As Elan Vital noted, the engines would be mated into the MTU series powerpacks by ChTZ, and the LKZ -219RD ended up a bit too heavy for the GATBU's liking. So, whereas a more powerful V or H engine would require a larger hull to fit in the T-80/T-72, an X-block could be fit in the V-block's cube. Barely.
So from what I'm getting:
The Soviet reluctance for implementing a larger powerpack was largely influenced by their concerns of weight not only for the weight of a larger powerpack itself up also for the additional armour construction it may entail to increase the internal volume. Correct or somewhat correct?

A-85 is an attempt to get the V-2's fairly absurd reliability metrics into a normal size diesel. The V-2 and its descendants, being a 40 liter displacement engines, are just gigantic for what they put out.
How does the V-2 compare as a engine going into the 2020s and it still being the choice for the T-90M series? There's also a ton of discussion regarding the V-2 as well (least of which includes ridiculing it for being a WWII descended engine being used in the 21st century). Obviously for a high displacement diesel V-12, its power output is comparatively less than the other high displacement diesel V-12 fitted onto other tanks but is it really as much of a design handicap as some people claim for it to be or is it a reasonably fine engine when put in the context of the overall engineering of a vehicle like the T-90M?
 
So from what I'm getting:
The Soviet reluctance for implementing a larger powerpack was largely influenced by their concerns of weight not only for the weight of a larger powerpack itself up also for the additional armour construction it may entail to increase the internal volume. Correct or somewhat correct?
Mostly correct. Their larger concern was powerpack volume, as the larger the volume you need to armor the heavier it gets. I mean, 1m^3 has a surface area of 6m^2, 2m^3 has a surface area of about 10m^2 (might be optimizable, but I went for the quick answer of a box 1x1x2m).

How does the V-2 compare as a engine going into the 2020s and it still being the choice for the T-90M series? There's also a ton of discussion regarding the V-2 as well (least of which includes ridiculing it for being a WWII descended engine being used in the 21st century). Obviously for a high displacement diesel V-12, its power output is comparatively less than the other high displacement diesel V-12 fitted onto other tanks but is it really as much of a design handicap as some people claim for it to be or is it a reasonably fine engine when put in the context of the overall engineering of a vehicle like the T-90M?
The major handicap is the sheer size of the old V-2 versus a more modern design, which gets back to the surface area to be armored thing.
 
Are you telling me the tank museum used a topwar.ru article as a source?
 
Are you telling me the tank museum used a topwar.ru article as a source?
Here's the original tank chat video referring to the T-14:
Tank Chats #171

At 12:30 David Wiley states:
"UVZ, Russia's main tank manufacturer, in a much hyped action took an engine called the A-85-3, that was a copy of a German X-shaped engine from the war years. The trans diesel design bureau had originally offered the engine as a unit for compressor oil and gas pumping stations."

The Tank Museum doesn't list any sources in their description or comments sections but due to how they reference both the engine being related (whether it be based or copied) from a German WWII engine and that it was originally a commercial product meant for the oil and gas industry, it is quite likely that the topwar.ru article was at least one of the sources they looked at. Most other articles that perpetuate the same or paraphrased version of the idea usually source the topwar.ru article.
 
So from what I'm getting:
The Soviet reluctance for implementing a larger powerpack was largely influenced by their concerns of weight not only for the weight of a larger powerpack itself up also for the additional armour construction it may entail to increase the internal volume. Correct or somewhat correct?

I think the Object 219RD's 2V-16-2 was, and 12N360 is, just too novel.

The GABTU shot down a lot of LKZ's ideas in general, not just 219RD, but also Object 299 universal combat platform. Putting the X-block into the T-80 wasn't seen as particularly viable, and then Leningrad folded less than a decade after the 219RD was shown to the Armor Directorate and got rolled into Kharkiv Morozov, for unrelated reasons, and the engineers worked on what became T-84.

The main problem was Chelyabinsk had only supplied something like four prototypes and they didn't really know how, and still don't know how, to really mass produce them. The GABTU report recommended the 2V-16-2 be prepared for mass production and this be studied. This is where 12N360 comes from: it's the 2V-12-2, which is a smaller version of the 2V-16, with a transmission in a powerpack.

How does the V-2 compare as a engine going into the 2020s and it still being the choice for the T-90M series?

It's fine I guess. It's a dead reliable two-stroke diesel with a cast iron block. Don't let it near emissions test centers? Internal combustion engines haven't changed much as a technology since the 1940's to really require entirely new mobility solutions or anything like that. L3Harris makes a 1,500 HP AVDS1790 but no one has bought it.

It's not like airplane engines or anything. Tank engines are just pretty boring in general.

There's also a ton of discussion regarding the V-2 as well (least of which includes ridiculing it for being a WWII descended engine being used in the 21st century). Obviously for a high displacement diesel V-12, its power output is comparatively less than the other high displacement diesel V-12 fitted onto other tanks but is it really as much of a design handicap as some people claim for it to be or is it a reasonably fine engine when put in the context of the overall engineering of a vehicle like the T-90M?

V-92 and V-2 are not the same engine. They share the same engine block but they are rather different.

The lack of horsepower per cylinder improves the engine's overall reliability, tbf. The engine is less stressed, it can run on crummy fuels, and it will work without maintenance, even if components on it are somewhat flimsy or difficult to access and subject to fewer maintenance checks as a result. There are anecdotes of V-2s running with broken crankshafts at speed. The block is pretty solid and could probably comfortably output 1,000-1,200 HP if you really wanted to press it, as the -B3 does, because it's a very large displacement block.

It's fine for tanks up to about 50-55 tons I suppose. More than that and it will show its weakness since it's "only" a 1,000 horsepower engine at most. You'd need to give it a pair of electric motors in the sprocket, and a very high performance transmission, to make it equate larger engines like MTU 873 and AGT-1500.

The main reason for using the 12N360 is 1) Chelyabinsk demanded it probably, they want the money; 2) it lets you have a lower hull if the engine is the tallest component in the vehicle because X-blocks are wider than they are tall, while the opposite is true of a V-block. Russia could literally just put a V-92S2F, rotated 90 degrees and mounted transversely, into the Armata and call it a day. It would make the tank producible albeit somewhat underpowered, comparable to a T-72A or something, rather than the T-80U they actually want.

Then the only problem is the gun, armor, and electronics fit. So the rest of the tank.
 
Yeah that's fair cop, I was mostly trying to be alliterative.

A-85/12N360's main issue is catching on fire and being hard to manufacture from what I've read. Maintenance is a more distant problem.

From a tank's perspective, the best option is to transverse mount a rotated V (so a <? a >?), but the 12N360/A-85 series has a substantially higher power density than the relatively anemic V-2 and friends. Which is how it manages to be almost twice as powerful in the same cube package (not a particularly amazing feat, V-2 is a very low HP per cylinder to achieve absurd reliability) and its main purpose for existing.

A pair of V-84s wouldn't really be the same and require more internal cube to be devoted to engines anyway.
Where have you heard of the A-85 catching fire? First time I hear of this especially given that very few intel gets out regarding Armata's trials.
Thanks for the insight! Do you know if ChTZ's plan was to always pursue a X configuration design for a new high power engine or if there were other options considered during the development process?
My understanding is that the Soviets always preferred having a compact powerpack in their MBTs, but was such a utmost design consideration to warrant going with a X configuration? Or were they willing to compromise with a more conventional parallel mounted high displacement V-12?

Also from what I've mostly seen, most people who seem to be referencing this article as proof of a link between the A-85-3A and the SGP Sla 16:
https://topwar.ru/207749-armaty-ne-budet-mozhno-rashoditsja.html
In which the article also states that the original A-85-3A was:
"created by the Transdiesel Design Bureau in the early 90s as a unit for compressor oil and gas pumping stations based on the German X-shaped Simmering SLA 16 engine"
This claim has seemed to go so far that even the Tank Museum in its T-14 Armata video paraphrased the original wording of the article above.
No idea about whether they had other options before choosing an X, it wouldn't surprise me that they would look at everything. Once development was started the only tank engines then in development at ChTz were various improved V-XX series, mainly with twin turbochargers instead of superchargers or a single turbo. Usually in the 850-1000hp range so obviously they were meant as upgrades rather than full on future engines for a new tank.

The author of the topwar.ru article is notorious for putting many blatant errors in his articles and being kinda crazy, and this can be seen in that article too so I wouldn't give much credence to it. The A-85 is so different from the Sla 16 that it's ridiculous. Different bore, stroke, bank angle, number of cylinders, construction, turbocharging, and it's liquid cooled instead of aircooled which already indicates it's completely different because changing the cooling medium requires extreme levels of modifications. Moreoever, the USSR had already worked on many X engines before and ChTz had designed one in the 60s (air cooled X16 so a bit closer, but it was in reaction to air-cooled Western engines like the AVDS-1790, not the Sla 16). The Sla 16 was just one example among many the Soviets could draw from, so this obsession with a "Sla 16" origin of A-85 is strange.​
The 2V series were parallel V-12 and V-16 I think? The designation may simply have been disinformation to hide it was an X though.

Ultimately they were required to be X because it was one of the few ways, barring new metallurgy or improved FADECs which were still futuristic in 1970, that the T-80 series tank would be able to get new power within the same volumetric cube. The A-85/2V16 were originally designed for a futuristic modification of the T-80/T-72 pair to dieselize the -80B and double the power output of the V-84 engine.

As Elan Vital noted, the engines would be mated into the MTU series powerpacks by ChTZ, and the LKZ -219RD ended up a bit too heavy for the GATBU's liking. So, whereas a more powerful V or H engine would require a larger hull to fit in the T-80/T-72, an X-block could be fit in the V-block's cube. Barely.
They were V-6 and V-8s connected together in an X (with appropriate mods, not just duct-taped together)
So from what I'm getting:
The Soviet reluctance for implementing a larger powerpack was largely influenced by their concerns of weight not only for the weight of a larger powerpack itself up also for the additional armour construction it may entail to increase the internal volume. Correct or somewhat correct?


How does the V-2 compare as a engine going into the 2020s and it still being the choice for the T-90M series? There's also a ton of discussion regarding the V-2 as well (least of which includes ridiculing it for being a WWII descended engine being used in the 21st century). Obviously for a high displacement diesel V-12, its power output is comparatively less than the other high displacement diesel V-12 fitted onto other tanks but is it really as much of a design handicap as some people claim for it to be or is it a reasonably fine engine when put in the context of the overall engineering of a vehicle like the T-90M?
Correct for the first question. They had extremely stringent weight requirements.

It's a fine engine. The current power limitations come not from the engine itself, but from UVZ's obsession of doing no serious modifications of T-72's engine bay, which prevent the use of twin turbochargers and more powerful turbocharging in general. In 1990, the Yugoslavs had got 1250hp out of a V-46 with twin turbos at the cost of changes to the engine deck and exhaust, while the 1130hp single turbo V-92 from T-90 required only a small mod to the deck. A V-92 block would have no issue getting 1500hp or even more as long as accomodations are made for proper turbocharging. The European diesels in the 26L range (FIAT MTCA, CV12) are a good example of this as they can be uprated to 1500hp and more. The main limitation in engine power today is turbocharging, not the block itself.​
Here's the original tank chat video referring to the T-14:
Tank Chats #171

At 12:30 David Wiley states:
"UVZ, Russia's main tank manufacturer, in a much hyped action took an engine called the A-85-3, that was a copy of a German X-shaped engine from the war years. The trans diesel design bureau had originally offered the engine as a unit for compressor oil and gas pumping stations."

The Tank Museum doesn't list any sources in their description or comments sections but due to how they reference both the engine being related (whether it be based or copied) from a German WWII engine and that it was originally a commercial product meant for the oil and gas industry, it is quite likely that the topwar.ru article was at least one of the sources they looked at. Most other articles that perpetuate the same or paraphrased version of the idea usually source the topwar.ru article.
Yep.
I think the Object 219RD's 2V-16-2 was, and 12N360 is, just too novel.

The GABTU shot down a lot of LKZ's ideas in general, not just 219RD, but also Object 299 universal combat platform. Putting the X-block into the T-80 wasn't seen as particularly viable, and then Leningrad folded less than a decade after the 219RD was shown to the Armor Directorate and got rolled into Kharkiv Morozov, for unrelated reasons, and the engineers worked on what became T-84.

The main problem was Chelyabinsk had only supplied something like four prototypes and they didn't really know how, and still don't know how, to really mass produce them. The GABTU report recommended the 2V-16-2 be prepared for mass production and this be studied. This is where 12N360 comes from: it's the 2V-12-2, which is a smaller version of the 2V-16, with a transmission in a powerpack.



It's fine I guess. It's a dead reliable two-stroke diesel with a cast iron block. Don't let it near emissions test centers? Internal combustion engines haven't changed much as a technology since the 1940's to really require entirely new mobility solutions or anything like that. L3Harris makes a 1,500 HP AVDS1790 but no one has bought it.

It's not like airplane engines or anything. Tank engines are just pretty boring in general.



V-92 and V-2 are not the same engine. They share the same engine block but they are rather different.

The lack of horsepower per cylinder improves the engine's overall reliability, tbf. The engine is less stressed, it can run on crummy fuels, and it will work without maintenance, even if components on it are somewhat flimsy or difficult to access and subject to fewer maintenance checks as a result. There are anecdotes of V-2s running with broken crankshafts at speed. The block is pretty solid and could probably comfortably output 1,000-1,200 HP if you really wanted to press it, as the -B3 does, because it's a very large displacement block.

It's fine for tanks up to about 50-55 tons I suppose. More than that and it will show its weakness since it's "only" a 1,000 horsepower engine at most. You'd need to give it a pair of electric motors in the sprocket, and a very high performance transmission, to make it equate larger engines like MTU 873 and AGT-1500.

The main reason for using the 12N360 is 1) Chelyabinsk demanded it probably, they want the money; 2) it lets you have a lower hull if the engine is the tallest component in the vehicle because X-blocks are wider than they are tall, while the opposite is true of a V-block. Russia could literally just put a V-92S2F, rotated 90 degrees and mounted transversely, into the Armata and call it a day. It would make the tank producible albeit somewhat underpowered, comparable to a T-72A or something, rather than the T-80U they actually want.

Then the only problem is the gun, armor, and electronics fit. So the rest of the tank.
As said above, the V-92 currently outputs 1130hp and more could be done if UVZ finally stopped shooting itself in the foot with its "no engine bay change" rule. When you mean V-92SF rotated 90°, you mean sitting on one bank or just mounted transversely? The latter is already done and the former would require a major redesign of the engine for proper lubrication/oil management at that angle (and the angle was 45° anyway, 90 wouldn't save any height).
 
Where have you heard of the A-85 catching fire? First time I hear of this especially given that very few intel gets out regarding Armata's trials.

There was an Armata that caught on fire prior to one of the Victory Day parades.

The only real issue seems to be manufacturing though tbf.

As said above, the V-92 currently outputs 1130hp and more could be done if UVZ finally stopped shooting itself in the foot with its "no engine bay change" rule. When you mean V-92SF rotated 90°, you mean sitting on one bank or just mounted transversely? The latter is already done and the former would require a major redesign of the engine for proper lubrication/oil management at that angle (and the angle was 45° anyway, 90 wouldn't save any height).

Oh yeah that's fair then, my bad. TIL.
 
Ok, some corrections/additions to what I said before first.

I said that the 2V series were essentially V6 and V8s "connected" together and that V6 and V8s for other vehicles were made out of it. My error is that I implied this was the case all along, when actually the V6 and V8s (boxer btw, aka flat 6 and flat 8) were post-Soviet developments. However, it is absolutely true that the 2V series are kinematically comparable to boxer 6s and boxer 8s crossed together. I will provide pictures later when I can.

The addition is about the likely reason the X was chosen. Transversely mounted Vees are inherently capped by the width of the vehicle, and therefore the length of the engine is important. Increasing cylinder size will affect length too, so hard to improve on that front. X engines are very interesting here because at the cost of an increase in width (not an issue) and maybe small increase in height (also not a severe issue given the very height-efficient Soviet powerpack and cooling system design), they can fit double the amount of cylinders in the same length as a Vee (An X16 is 4 cylinders "long", so similar in length to a V8 which has half the cylinders, assuming same cylinder dimensions). It is therefore logical that a X can be a very viable option once transverse Vees have used up the maximum width available in the tank.

The other reason a X was chosen is that ChTz wanted an engine that could be easily fitted either in front of or behind a transmission as a powerpack without having to change the tanks themselves much. This was particularly useful since prospective Soviet tank designs studied both front and rear powerpacked tanks (indeed the Object 299 that Kat Tsun mentionned was front engined).


Was this largely influenced by infrastructure limitations similar to the JSGDF's Type 90/Type 10 situation or because of some other reason?
Yes, albeit in a slightly different way*. Of course there were railroad limitations, but other factors were the fact that Soviet tank transporter trucks were not as developped as Western ones (or I should say, insufficiently powered, with just 520hp instead of I believe over 700 in the German Leo 2 transporter), and that Soviet tank units had fewer organic recovery capacity than Western counterparts.
Moreover, Soviet tanks were very optimized for the "Last War" (WW3), where it was expected that most road surfaces Soviet tanks would traverse would be at best heavily damaged dirt roads, coupled with massive tacnuke usage. Therefore the supply situation was expected to be very complicated and the Soviet Army was kinda engineered to function with minimal supply/engineering requirements (which might also be why they have units with a high tooth-to-tail ratio, but it's kind of an egg and hen situation, not sure if that ratio was chosen in response to the age of tacnukes).

So making especially "light" tanks made sense. I don't recall them being all that much narrower than Western ones at the edge of the tracks however. Length and height weren't too important for transportation here and are more the natural result of weight reduction measures and steering ratio requirement.


*Japan differs in that the country inherently sucks for heavy tank use, regardless of the type of war that was going to be fought on it.
 
*Japan differs in that the country inherently sucks for heavy tank use, regardless of the type of war that was going to be fought on it.
Basically, only Hokkaido, the farthest north island, is good for tanks to run around on. Everywhere else is either flat and full of cities, or near vertical mountains where you're not going to get a tank anyways.
 

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