Russian Turtle Tanks

Bolo Mark III)

P.S. According to available data, the "tsar-mangal" (rus. "tsar grill", first turtle tank prototype) withstood 40 hits with FPV drones without any significant damage. Seems that tank architecture should be re-thinked...
 
Their Idea is to put there tanks and troop carrier inside protective hull
That absorb RPG and shells impact
It will be interesting to see, how the Ukraine forces adapt to this.
 
Except those "turtles" now are almost completely blind, with poor situational awareness, very narrow field of fire. And that's not even mentioning degraded mobility, suspension wear, maintenance issues, cumbersomeness especially in build-up areas...
Some of those shortcomings may be alleviated (360°cameras, remotely operated turret), but I can't see any real use (I mean efficient vs perceived protection) beside some specialized path clearing vehicles.
 
Manuducati said:
Except those "turtles" now are almost completely blind, with poor situational awareness,
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With quad drones overhead? Modern tank never got blind, even if it literally have no observation systems left.

Manuducati said:
Some of those shortcomings may be alleviated (360°cameras, remotely operated turret), but I can't see any real use (I mean efficient vs perceived protection) beside some specialized path clearing vehicles.
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Well, at least we are trying to solve the problem of crossing no-man land for tanks) Not that NATO or anyone else have any better solution...
 
A solution is to lure them into a minefield... If you have a road or a piece that offers a faster way through, then people are more likely to go that way. It is hard to resist the road of least resistance.
Another way would be small remote powered cars, just low enough to drive underneath a tank. The bottomside is very thin compared to the other sides.... What you need is to have a lot of them ( they are cheaper then copters)
And some kind of sensor network ( a balloon high in the sky is the cheapest)
Then you need a AI to drive the cars ( relatively cheap, can be trained with games these days. Each car doesn't need its own AI, but it is better and harder to intercept.) The AI never sleeps and depending on the sensors, you have 24 hours coverage.
 
BAROBA said:
A solution is to lure them into a minefield...
Click to expand...
yes that there biggest weak point, they can't pass a dense minefield

Manuducati said:
Except those "turtles" now are almost completely blind, with poor situational awareness, very narrow field of fire.
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another weak point they can't see what happen left, right, behind the Turtle Tank.

BAROBA said:
Another way would be small remote powered cars,
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odd the Germans had try that during ww2 with Leichte Ladungsträger (Sd.Kfz. 302 bzw. 303) Goliath
Bundesarchiv_Bild_101III-Ahrens-026-12%2C_Russland%2C_Sprengpanzer_%22Goliath%22.jpg


What ever the Solution will be, it will have implication of future warfare...
 
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Michel Van said:
yes that there biggest weak point, they can't pass a dense minefield
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Well, no tank could pass a dense minefields. The summer 2023 Ukrainian attempts to charge Russian minefields on Leopard-2 tanks ended... rather badly. Essentially no one currently have any idea how to breach minefields; existing mine removal equipment from both sides demonstrated itself totally inadequate.
 
@Michel Van
Those are the 'cars' I was thinking of.
Shaped charge on top, mini-pc somewhere bolted onto them. Maybe even a smartphone can run some crude AI. The AI waits for a signal from a balloon or other (automated) source, jumps into action and drives underneath a tank.
 
Transitional periods of war reveal rapid development of ad hoc stuff like this. In a way tanks themselves were built by necessity during great technological changes in the battlefield. APS is good but recent events in Israel show they still have weaknesses and are very expensive. Relatively cheap fixes like this thin encasement or tanks skirts in ww2 will always develop on the battlefield.

The problem of drones is massive. I have my theories and a couple people here have made good posts on the protection from drones thread. This tsars barbeque grill is already showing more sophisticated iterations. It certainly is only a very small and jerry rigged part of the solution, though, imo.
 
Well, personally, I give the Russian Army full credit for their initiative....an initiative that can only be derived through actual experiance of combat.

I remember everyone taking the piss out of the Russian's for their employment of Cope cages....and who's using them these days - probably the most revered Armoured warfare experts Post-WW2 - Israel.....

Regards
Pioneer
 
BAROBA said:
@Michel Van
Those are the 'cars' I was thinking of.
Shaped charge on top, mini-pc somewhere bolted onto them.
Click to expand...

Probably a better idea would be dedicated quadcopters. Carrying a single powerful shaped charge underneath the drone pointing *up* through the drone. When it can, it lands right in front of the Blyatmobile and kerplodes from underneath. When that's not practical, it drops the shaped charge, which deploys a parachute or even just a string to re-orient it downwards and then explodes on command. Might not trash the tank that way but it'll sure as hell rattle it but good.
 
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Russian turtle tanks are specifically built to assault densely defended positions, clearing the corridors in front of them (they are practically all equipped with KMT-5s) and must provide fire support, maintaining protection against drones and anti-tank weapons. They are specialized vehicles such as the assault vehicles of the engineers, or the assault guns of the Second World War. All the other ratings don't make much sense.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Probably a better idea would be dedicated quadcopters. Carrying a single powerful shaped charge underneath the drone pointing *up* through the drone. When it can, it lands right in front of the Blyatmobile and kerplodes from underneath.
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yes that more likely to happen
since you can use the quadcopter also as low cost cruise missile on other targets
 
It'll be quite interesting if there are ever factor built anti-drone cage kits. One could definitely see this approach being developed in such a way that it doesn't impact situational awareness (or even interfere with turret movement - although the need for a turret in an assault gun is more limited).

I also can't help but wonder if some kind of casemate tank might make a comeback... it could save money, be developed faster, and allow for more top attack protection (in theory). It'd be a pretty fascinating development.
 
When Vulcan Phalanx with a shotgun instead of a cannon appear on board combat vehicles, then the "sheds" on tanks will disappear
 
paralay said:
When Vulcan Phalanx with a shotgun instead of a cannon appear on board combat vehicles, then the "sheds" on tanks will disappear
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That's effectively already happened. The 25mm autocannon on the Bradley seems like it would strip the Blyatmobile down to the bare armor. The rate of fire isn't as high as a Vulcan of course, but it's high enough. In this case, armor piercing rounds probably aren't what you want (they're unlikely to get through an MBT's frontal armor anyway), but high explosive ones to shred and remove anything *outside* the armor.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyx9myLaiqM
 
Turtle tanks are well documented for an active frontline,
tank-barn-t-80-v0-gpggdhgne80d1.jpg

tank-barn-t-80-v0-dktktegne80d1.jpg

As seen on Top Gear, never,
a-t-72b3-tank-is-turned-into-a-turtle-tank-v0-fejtt3hipc0d1.jpg
a-t-72b3-tank-is-turned-into-a-turtle-tank-v0-5yzvfh6ipc0d1.jpg
 
Orionblamblam said:
That's effectively already happened. The 25mm autocannon on the Bradley seems like it would strip the Blyatmobile down to the bare armor. The rate of fire isn't as high as a Vulcan of course, but it's high enough. In this case, armor piercing rounds probably aren't what you want (they're unlikely to get through an MBT's frontal armor anyway), but high explosive ones to shred and remove anything *outside* the armor.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyx9myLaiqM
Click to expand...

A similar thing happened at the start of the Yugoslav Civil War. A Serbian tank approached a Slovenian border crossing, intent on going through. All the Slovenians had to defend themselves with was one of those twin 23mm cannon things (ZSU-23? The ones they put on the back of trucks). The Slovenians opened fire until the tank stopped and was abandoned by it's crew. The tank's armour was never penetrated, but all the sights, vision blocks, etc. were destroyed, rendering the tank blind, and hence useless . . .

cheers,
Robin.
 
Dilandu said:
Frankly, I'm skeptical about any non-laser based defense against small drones.
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Given that soon enough drones won't come in ones and twos but in swarms of hundreds or thousands, even the zappiest zapgun in the world likely won't be enough. You'll need something akin to a WMD to deal with them: clouds of bugbots, or electromagnetic fields of incredible power, or outright EMP bursts or fuel-air explosions.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/i3XQOFfWU1g
 
While perhaps a defence against light FPV drones, surely these arrangements seriously degrade situational awareness and combat effectiveness against other, more traditional threats. If nothing else, they certainly make the tanks a easier spotted target.
 
This War become some thing like WW1, testing ground for New Weapon system and new combat doctrine...
 
One possible advantage this sort of engineering presents: all you need is a drivable chassis and a pile of scrap, and now you have a target as important to the enemy as a full-fledged main battle tank. If the Russians are smart, they'll have a bunch of crappy T-80's being retrofitted right now with a shed on top and a fake barrel sticking out the front. Added armor on top to protect what little there is to protect (driver, engine, fuel) and to make sure the things weigh and perform right, and flesh out the front lines with whole squadrons of ersatz Blyatmobiles. They'll serve as drone-sponges, taking the heat off the *actual* Blyatmobiles.
 
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They can also use inflatable tanks as the Ukrainians are doing or trucks disguised as tanks as the Israelis are doing.
 

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Modern Schürzen.
(which sounds like a band name)
Interesting that the German development of it in WW2 was instigated by Soviet/Russian anti-tank rifles & here we are now decades later where the Russians are adopting an evolution of the practice due to non-main-gun anti-tank weapons being employed against their tanks.
Isn't there an old supposedly French origin saying going something like "The more things change the more they remain the same"?
 
Pioneer said:
Well, personally, I give the Russian Army full credit for their initiative....an initiative that can only be derived through actual experiance of combat.

I remember everyone taking the piss out of the Russian's for their employment of Cope cages....and who's using them these days - probably the most revered Armoured warfare experts Post-WW2 - Israel.....

Regards
Pioneer
Click to expand...
Before jumping to praise, I would suggest you have a watch of the Perun video I posted above.
 
Dilandu said:
Well, if you started wishing for magic solution, then the situation is truly complicated.
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NATO already has optical invisibility systems to camouflage aircraft, but with tanks it is more complicated because of the dust they raise in their path.

In the mid 90s, the advances achieved in Computer Generated Holography, wavelength computation with Fourier transform method and Point Source Holograms, allowed the creation of holographic images in 3D around an object to hide it. But the system just worked with static objects and the Phased Array Optics required a considerable amount of electronic equipment.

In 2003, researchers at the University of Tokyo developed an active camouflage system with video cameras that registered the background to project it against the object that should be camouflaged.

In 2004, the discovery of the graphene made possible the manufacturing of curve video screens and adapts them to any surface. An aircraft with a coat of grapheme screens and equipped with video cameras that register the background from any angle and project it on the screens at the other side, may become practically invisible.

The layers of grapheme are super-thin and several of them, with different properties, may be superimposed. Under the optical screen, it is possible to locate a layer formed by hexagonal elements of grapheme that may be heated or cooled down in a selective way, thanks to the ‘Adaptiv’ system, developed by BAE systems in 2011. This layer would very efficiently act as IR camouflage.
 
With regard to these turtles' vision blocks, don't some training rounds have a bright paint fill ??

Splash-over would also highlight the target ...
 

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