Russian Air Campaign in Syria

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AeroFranz said:
I'm sure this was not the first incident...that being said, a less drastic solution would have been to use said F-16s to exert some "gentle persuasion" and in no uncertain terms tell the Russians to follow them to an airport on Turkish soil.

Why would the Russians follow them? Russian aircraft have been intercepted several times already and been told to leave. We don't know the details at this point, but at some point one has to show that your airspace needs to be respected or it won't be. Just sayin'.
 
I agree it's not easy to enforce the air space without recurring to "kinetic" effects (for lack of a better term). I was thinking that there may have been another couple of possible steps before resorting to the rather terminal one of an AMRAAM up the a$$ (or was it an AIM-9?). I dunno, maybe good 'ole M61 tracers across the nose?

I don't argue with your point, just that there are ways of getting the message across that let both players save face. Now of course Putin (marvelous example of rationality and restraint that we know) is going to escalate further. He's not going to sit at the same table as the Turks out of principle, now. I choose to believe that was not the goal all along...
 
AeroFranz said:
I choose to believe that was not the goal all along...

I would like to believe that. However they haven't really been showing much respect to Turkish airspace. I doubt it was out of incompetence so that doesn't really leave a lot of alternatives. Unfortunately I think now the real "game" of chicken will begin. Who will blink first? I think there is a lot going on that the public doesn't seem to be putting together. We've got Russia testing many nuclear capable missiles recently, the "leak" of the Russian Doomsday Torpedo, two VERY public D-5 launches, an unheard of release of video footage of US air-launched ballistic missile target launches and their shoot down, video of a US carrier battle group sailing with Japanese forces in the South China Sea released yesterday, etc. . .
 
US confirms the Turks warned the Russians repeatedly - from the BBC's live blog http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469 :
A spokesman for the US-led coalition against Islamic State, Col Steve Warren says it can confirm that the Turks warned the Russian plane 10 times before shooting down the jet.
Maybe the Turks did actually try to force the Sukhoi down. The Guardian reports the Turks claiming ten warnings in five minutes.
 
If that's the case, then i'm a bit relieved that this was not a callous, unnecessary escalation. I hope there are tapes out there to put the issue to rest.
It is regrettable that the flyers were shot down under their parachutes. Besides the obvious crime of war situation (which in that region at this point nobody gives a hoot), if the Turks had sent a CSAR mission to get the pilots back, or gotten the rebels to hand them over, they would have had a major mediatic coup.
 
AeroFranz said:
If that's the case, then i'm a bit relieved that this was not a callous, unnecessary escalation. I hope there are tapes out there to put the issue to rest.
It is regrettable that the flyers were shot down under their parachutes. Besides the obvious crime of war situation (which in that region at this point nobody gives a hoot), if the Turks had sent a CSAR mission to get the pilots back, or gotten the rebels to hand them over, they would have had a major mediatic coup.

There is video of a (apparently) Mi-17 CSAR helicopter being hit by a TOW as well. Don't know if it was part of the crew recovery operation or something separate.
 
Latest from Reuters: Turkish official says Sukhoi crew still alive.
“Our units, who received the information that the two pilots were alive, are working to get them from opposition rebels safely,” the official said.
 
Arjen said:
Latest from Reuters: Turkish official says Sukhoi crew still alive.
“Our units, who received the information that the two pilots were alive, are working to get them from opposition rebels safely,” the official said.

That's good to hear.
 
Arjen said:
Latest from Reuters: Turkish official says Sukhoi crew still alive.
“Our units, who received the information that the two pilots were alive, are working to get them from opposition rebels safely,” the official said.

Hard to credit, since there is video showing one Russian aircrew very definitely dead.
 
Waiting for the dust to settle.
 
From the Guardian's live blog:
White House: 'Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted seconds'

Russia’s operation in Syria will continue despite the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force, the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov has said. Meanwhile, a US official has said that initial indications are that the Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted a matter of seconds.
 
Arjen said:
From the Guardian's live blog:
White House: 'Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted seconds'

Russia’s operation in Syria will continue despite the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force, the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov has said. Meanwhile, a US official has said that initial indications are that the Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted a matter of seconds.

I wonder if this is where Turkey gets thrown under the bus. ??? Sounds like multiple "US officials" are giving seemingly contradictory statements. How did they warn the aircraft 10 times if it were "mere seconds"? Questions, questions. . .
 
sferrin said:
Arjen said:
From the Guardian's live blog:
White House: 'Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted seconds'

Russia’s operation in Syria will continue despite the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force, the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov has said. Meanwhile, a US official has said that initial indications are that the Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted a matter of seconds.

I wonder if this is where Turkey gets thrown under the bus. ??? Sounds like multiple "US officials" are giving seemingly contradictory statements. How did they warn the aircraft 10 times if it were "mere seconds"? Questions, questions. . .

I fully expect the Obama administration to become world experts in the subtle nuances of Article 5 of the NATO charter in the next couple of hours.
 
IMHO this is a stupid move on the part of the Turks which will not help anyone's cause here...except the likes of ISIL
 
If the ten warnings in five minutes and the incursion in seconds are both taken at face value, most, if not all of the warnings were issued with the Sukhoi in Syrian airspace. The incursion in seconds is consistent with the radar tracking picture.
 
Arjen said:
If the ten warnings in five minutes and the incursion in seconds are both taken at face value, most, if not all of the warnings were issued with the Sukhoi in Syrian airspace. The incursion in seconds is consistent with the radar tracking picture.

Saw another source that said 5 minutes. Don't know how many miles it is across that little tip of Turkey. (Don't have Google Earth handy.)
 
"Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any target posing danger"
Published time: 24 Nov, 2015 18:16
Edited time: 24 Nov, 2015 18:56

Source:
https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/

Moscow plans to suspend military cooperation with Ankara after the downing of a Russian bomber by Turkish air forces, Russian General Staff representatives said on Tuesday. Further measures to beef up Russian air base security in Syria will also be taken.

Sergey Rudskoy, a top official with the Russian General Staff, condemned the attack on the Russian bomber in Syrian airspace by a Turkish fighter jet as “a severe violation of international law”. He stressed that the Su-24 was downed over the Syrian territory. The crash site was four kilometers away from the Turkish border, he said.

Rudskoy said the Russian warplane did not violate Turkish airspace. Additionally, according to the Hmeymim airfield radar, it was the Turkish fighter jet that actually entered Syrian airspace as it attacked the Russian bomber.

The Turkish fighter jet made no attempts to contact Russian pilots before attacking the bomber, Rudskoy added.

“We assume the strike was carried out with a close range missile with an infra-red seeker,” he said. “The Turkish jet made no attempts to communicate or establish visual contact with our crew that our equipment would have registered. The Su-24 was hit by the missile over Syria’s territory.”

Russia now plans to implement new measures aimed at strengthening the security of the country’s air base in Syria and in particular to bolster air defense.

Russian missile cruiser Moskva equipped with the Fort air defense system similar to S-300 will be deployed off Latakia province's coast.

"We warn that every target posing a potential threat will be destroyed,” lieutenant general Sergey Rudskoy said during the briefing.
 
Don't know how they can put up an arbitrarily large bubble of "you can't fly here or we'll shoot you down" space in international waters.
 
On the lighter side the FLANKER even looks pretty when its been shot down.

Edit: After reading more of this thread it looks like the plane shot down was a FENCER. The Australian newspaper clearly shows a FLANKER burning. Maybe they committed the all to common news art editor's mistake of just using a file photo for a current event?

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2015/11/25/1227622/004646-8a0def60-92ad-11e5-a909-1c5168f7bee5.jpg
 
GTX said:
IMHO this is a stupid move on the part of the Turks which will not help anyone's cause here...except the likes of ISIL

Its not so simple. The Russian air campaign has been mostly directed against the good guy rebels in Syria not ISIS. And in this case against ethnic Turkish rebels in the north west of the country. The Russians are fighting to keep the Assad regime in place not to destroy ISIS. Turkey just took a big bite out of that campaign.
 
sferrin said:
Don't know how they can put up an arbitrarily large bubble of "you can't fly here or we'll shoot you down" space in international waters.

Maritime exclusion zones as part of an ongoing conflict are quite common.
 
Russian Defense Ministry claims the Sukhoi Su-24 never entered Turkish airspace.


"Russian Defense Ministry Video Proves Su-24 Never Entered Turkish Airspace"
Military & Intelligence
23:40 24.11.2015(updated 00:09 25.11.2015

Source:
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-path.html#ixzz3sRnUbpzM

While authorities in Ankara have insisted that it shot down the Russian Su-24 bomber after the aircraft entered Turkish airspace, the Russian Defense Ministry has released video proving that the plane never left Syrian airspace.

According to a leaked letter written to the UN Security Council by the Turkish Ambassador, Turkey’s military justified the shooting down of a Russian bomber by claiming that the aircraft had entered Turkish airspace for 17 seconds.

But flight data released by Russian Ministry of Defense shows that the Su-24s never entered Turkey, and were attacked while performing legitimate maneuvers over Syria.

On Tuesday, Turkish F-16s shot down a Russian Su-24M Fencer bomber. One of the pilots has been confirmed dead by Russian authorities, shot by rebel ground units after ejecting.

Russian President Vladimir Putin described the incident as a "stab in the back, carried out against us by accomplices of terrorists."

https://youtu.be/9Cs8jdJKSGo
 
Triton said:
Russian Defense Ministry claims the Sukhoi Su-24 never entered Turkish airspace.

Is this the same clown who said a Russian GADFLY missile didn't shoot down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 killing 298 innocent civilians? Credibility: less than zero.
 
"Statement by the NATO Secretary General after the extraordinary NAC meeting"
24 Nov. 2015
Press Release (2015) 169
Issued on 24 Nov. 2015
|
Last updated: 24 Nov. 2015 22:32

Source:
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_125052.htm?selectedLocale=en

The North Atlantic Council has just held a meeting, an extraordinary meeting. And we have been updated by the Turkish Ambassador on the recent events. I have also spoken to Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu.

Turkey informed Allies about the downing of a Russian Air Force plane violating Turkish airspace.

I have previously expressed my concerns about the implications of the military actions of the Russian Federation close to NATO’s borders.

This highlights the importance of having and respecting arrangements to avoid such incidents in the future.

As we have repeatedly made clear, we stand in solidarity with Turkey and support the territorial integrity of our NATO Ally, Turkey.

We will continue to follow the developments on the South-Eastern borders of NATO very closely.

I look forward to further contacts between Ankara and Moscow and I call for calm and de-escalation.

Diplomacy and de-escalation are important to resolve this situation.

Now I’m ready to take your questions.

Q (CNN): The Russians are saying the plane was shot down over Syrian territory and never went into Turkish territory. Are you convinced that it was shot down indeed over Turkish airspace and that Turkish airspace was indeed violate?

Secretary General: The Allied assessments we have got from several Allies during the day are consistent with information we have been provided with from Turkey. So the information we have from other Allies is consistent with what we have got from Turkey.

Q (Kurdish media): Mr Stoltenberg, how could be the situation and your position if tension between Russia and Turkey raised? You said that you are continue looking at developments. How could be your position if tensions continue to rise between Russia and Turkey? Thank you.

Secretary General: I’ve think I’ve expressed very clearly that we are calling for calm and de-escalation. This is a serious situation. This is a situation which calls on that we all are prudent and that we all contribute to de-escalating the situation.

And that’s also the reason why I welcome further contacts between Moscow and Ankara. There has been contacts and we would welcome even more contacts. To partly to solve this concrete incident, but also to continue to work on the development and also the strengthening of mechanisms to avoid these kinds of situation in the future.

Actually, inside the Alliance we are discussing how we can develop better and improved measures for transparency, for predictability, and for risk reduction. Because we have to avoid this kind of incidents. We have to avoid that situations, incidents, accidents spiral out of control.

And therefore this is a serious situation, but I think that the new security environment we are facing along NATO borders just underlines the importance of focusing more on predictability, transparency, and different measures to reduce risks.

Q (WSJ): What does this say about the ability for Allies to work together with Russia in Syria? Are the tactics just too different? Are the targets just too different?

Secretary General: The common enemy should be ISIL. And I would welcome all efforts to fight ISIL. And it is important that all of us, also Russia, is guided by the overarching goal of defeating ISIL.

What we have seen is that most of the attacks by Russia so far has been targeted towards targets in parts of Syria where ISIL is not present. So we welcome all efforts to fight ISIL. Our common enemy is ISIL, and therefore I would also welcome all efforts to strengthen the fight against ISIL.

Q (Reuters): Wondered if you had any contacts with the Russians or planned any contacts with the Russians over this incident?

Secretary General: There has been contacts between Ankara and Moscow, Turkey and Russia but so far there has been no direct contact between NATO and Russia. But we have been in contact with Turkey, a NATO ally, which has directly been in contact with Russian authorities.

Q (unknown): Do you have any more clarity as to how the plane was actually shot down because that’s disputed, whether it be surface to surface or surface to air or ground to air missile?

Secretary General: I will be careful going too much into specifics and too much into details but what I can confirm is that the assessments we have from allies are consistent with what Turkey briefed us about earlier today.
 
"Russian Military to Boost Security in Syrian Operation After Su-24 Incident"
24.11.2015

Source:
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030694504/russian-military-security.html#ixzz3sRs3oJm6


The Russian General Staff said Tuesday it will take additional steps to enhance security measures during combat air missions and at the Russian airbase in Syria in response to downing of a Russian combat jet by the Turkish air force.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Earlier on Tuesday, a Russian Su-24 bomber aircraft was downed by an air-to-air missile while carrying out precision strikes against terrorists in northern Syria. The missile was fired by a Turkish F-16 fighter in response to alleged violation of the Turkish airspace by the Russian jet.

"All missions by strike aircraft will be carried out with escort by fighter jets," Lt. Gen. Sergey Rudskoy, chief of the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, said in a statement.

According to Rudskoy, Russia's Moskva missile cruiser will be redeployed off the Syrian coast near Latakia to strengthen air defenses of the Hmeimim airfield, where the Russian air group is based.

"All military contacts with Turkey will be stopped," the general added.
 
"Obama: Turkey Has Right to Defend Its Territory, Airspace"
VOA News
Last updated on: November 24, 2015 2:23 PM

Source:
http://www.voanews.com/content/turkish-jets-shoot-down-warplane-near-syrian-border/3071322.html

President Barack Obama said the downing of a Russian fighter jet along the Syrian-Turkish border Tuesday is evidence of an "ongoing problem" with Russia's military operations in Syria, and that Turkey had a "right to defend its territory and its airspace."

Speaking during a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollande, Obama said information about Turkey's downing of the Russian Su-24 was still being collected, but noted that Russian military aircraft are targeting moderate Syrian opposition groups very close to Turkey's borders.

He urged the two sides to "take measures to discourage any kind of escalation" and said the incident showed a need to move quickly toward a diplomatic resolution of the Syrian conflict.

Earlier, Russian President Vladimir Putin accused Turkey of "stabbing" Russia "in the back" and supporting terrorism after Turkish F-16s shot down the Russian jet.

Ankara said the plane was shot down after it violated Turkish airspace and ignored 10 warnings in the span of five minutes to leave.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said his country made its "best efforts" to avoid such an incident, but that "everyone should respect the right of Turkey to defend its borders."

Ankara has strongly criticized recent airstrikes by Russian forces against Syrian Turkmen, which Turkey considers ethnic kin.

Repeated warnings

A U.S. military spokesman confirmed that Turkish pilots issued repeated warnings to the Russian plane and didn't get a response. However, the spokesman said it was not immediately clear on which side of the border the Russian jet was flying.

Moscow insists the jet never left Syrian airspace.

Putin acknowledged the Russian jet was shot down by a Turkish F-16, after Russian officials had earlier said "firing from the ground" was responsible for downing the plane. But he said the fighter was over Syrian territory 1 kilometer away from the Turkish border when it was hit, and that it never threatened Turkey.

"This event goes beyond the framework of the regular fight against terrorism," Putin said at a meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah II in the southern Russian city of Sochi.

"Of course, our servicemen are waging a heroic fight against terror -- not sparing themselves, sacrificing their own lives. But today's loss is connected to a stab in the back by accomplices of the terrorists. There is no other way to characterize what happened today," he said.

Putin said Russia had long noted "a large amount of oil and oil products" entering Turkey from Islamic State-held territory in Syria, providing the terrorist group with a "large money supply."

'Tragic event'

He added, "Today's tragic event will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations."

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he has canceled a planned visit to Turkey and said his ministry was recommending that Russians not travel to Turkey “for tourism or any other purposes.”

NATO held an emergency meeting Tuesday to discuss the incident.

The Interfax news agency Tuesday evening quoted a spokesman for the Russian armed forces’ general staff, Lt. Gen. Sergei Rudskoi, as saying that one of the two pilots of the Su-24 was apparently killed by ground fire after ejecting from the plane and while parachuting to safety.

The military spokesman also said that a Russian marine was killed when an Mi-8 helicopter sent to rescue the downed pilots came under fire from rebel-controlled territory.

Earlier Tuesday, video from the area showed what appeared to be two pilots parachuting down from the sky, and a Syrian rebel group later released its own video of what it said was one of the pilots, who it said was dead.

Latakia province

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which monitors violence in Syria, said the plane went down in the Turkmen Mountains in Latakia province. Pro-government forces have been fighting in that region and the Islamic State group is not known to be present there.

A U.S. defense official said Turkey informed the United States that its aircraft had shot down a Russian jet that violated its airspace. The official said U.S. forces were not involved.

Turkish officials have issued multiple warnings about aircraft violating its airspace during Syria's 4½-year civil war. Its forces shot down a Syrian helicopter in 2013 and last month took down an unidentified drone that crossed into its airspace.

Turkey has also complained about at least two instances of Russian jets flying in its airspace.

'Irresponsible behavior'

NATO protested those incursions, and in October noted what it called the "extreme danger of irresponsible behavior."

After the earlier Russian incursions into Turkey, the United States deployed six F-15 jets from Britain to Turkey's Incirlik Air Base to help the NATO ally secure its skies.

Russia began its military campaign in Syria in late September. In October, it reached an agreement with the United States, which is leading a coalition of countries bombing militants in Syria, to keep a safe distance and communicate in order to prevent mid-air disasters.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
sferrin said:
Don't know how they can put up an arbitrarily large bubble of "you can't fly here or we'll shoot you down" space in international waters.

Maritime exclusion zones as part of an ongoing conflict are quite common.

How does a country know where the "Don't go here" boundary is, especially for a ship? And what if that boundary extends over Turkish territory say?
 
"Turkey Accuses Two Russian Su-24s of Violating Airspace in Letter to UN"
by Konstantin Chalabov
Military & Intelligence
00:43 25.11.2015

Source:
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151125/1030697858/turkey-un-security-council-letter.html

The Turkish permanent representative in the United Nations accused two Russian Su-24 fighter jets of violating the republic's airspace on Tuesday, in a letter to the UN Security Council, obtained by Sputnik.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Earlier on Tuesday, a Russian Su-24 attack aircraft was downed by an air-to-air missile while carrying out precision strikes against terrorists in northern Syria.

"This morning (24 November) 2 SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown have approached Turkish national airspace in Yayladagi/Hatay region," the letter by Yasar Halit Cevik said.

One of the planes left Turkish national airspace after a number of warnings, according to the letter....

Link to letter:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/291002800/Turkey-Letter-to-UNSC-on-Shooting-Down-SU-24-Plane-Nov-24-2015
 
I thought that all of the parties involved had a big confab a couple of weeks ago discussing communications protocols to avoid exactly these sorts of incidents?
 
sferrin said:
Abraham Gubler said:
sferrin said:
Don't know how they can put up an arbitrarily large bubble of "you can't fly here or we'll shoot you down" space in international waters.

Maritime exclusion zones as part of an ongoing conflict are quite common.

How does a country know where the "Don't go here" boundary is, especially for a ship?

You probe the boundary with an Airbus A300.
 
sferrin said:
Abraham Gubler said:
sferrin said:
Don't know how they can put up an arbitrarily large bubble of "you can't fly here or we'll shoot you down" space in international waters.

Maritime exclusion zones as part of an ongoing conflict are quite common.

How does a country know where the "Don't go here" boundary is, especially for a ship? And what if that boundary extends over Turkish territory say?

Notice to mariners. Radio broadcasts. And as to the later thats an act of war.
 
marauder2048 said:
sferrin said:
Abraham Gubler said:
sferrin said:
Don't know how they can put up an arbitrarily large bubble of "you can't fly here or we'll shoot you down" space in international waters.

Maritime exclusion zones as part of an ongoing conflict are quite common.

How does a country know where the "Don't go here" boundary is, especially for a ship?

You probe the boundary with an Airbus A300.

The iranians had a policy of ignoring all us emergency radio broadcasts. And paid for it with 200 odd civilian lives and then played the victim. Passive aggression at its worst.
 
The Iranians were then at war, under attack by the aggressor Iraq.
The USN was not at war when USS Vincennes tried to murder F-14 pilots who posed no threat in addition to violating Iranian territorial waters that day, attacking Iranian naval vessels in the Iranians' backyard and tryed to help the aggressor Saddam Hussein to avert defeat in his war of aggression by a legitimate naval blockade.
 
lastdingo said:
The Iranians were then at war, under attack by the aggressor Iraq.
The USN was not at war when USS Vincennes tried to murder F-14 pilots who posed no threat in addition to violating Iranian territorial waters that day, attacking Iranian naval vessels in the Iranians' backyard and tryed to help the aggressor Saddam Hussein to avert defeat in his war of aggression by a legitimate naval blockade.

Lolz. Seriously lolz. Thanks for the hezbollah point of view.
 
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