Royal Navy Naming Conventions

The Skipper

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It is also worth remembering that there was no Princess Royal between March 1965, when Princess Mary Countess of Harewood died, and 1987, when Princess Anne was appointed Princess Royal.
 
It is also worth remembering that there was no Princess Royal between March 1965, when Princess Mary Countess of Harewood died, and 1987, when Princess Anne was appointed Princess Royal.
Just curious- what is the significance of that? I found the name Princess Royal to be a bit odd. Wikipedia is the only source I've seen that lists the Prince of Wales and Princess Royal as likely names for CVA-03 and CVA-04. But oddly enough, Wikipedia doesn't have a primary source listed for that. I've been curious if it's some made-up BS and I'm just falling for a 'citation cascade'.

When you mention the death of Princess Mary in 1965, are you implying that her death would make it more likely that Princess Royal was a legitimate contender for CVA-04, or less likely?
 
It would be unusual for a Royal Navy ship to commemorate a non-Monarch Royal title when an incumbent was not alive.

The name has mixed usage:
The first was a 90-gun second rate launched in 1682 as HMS Ossory being renamed HMS Prince in 1705, HMS Princess in 1716 and finally HMS Princess Royal in 1728 - presumably to honour Anne, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange who had been awarded her title by George II in 1727 (the title had not been used since 1642).

The next HMS Princess Royal was launched in 1773. This was an odd choice of name as Anne died in 1759 and although Charlotte Augusta Matilda was born in 1766 she wasn't actually awarded the title until 1789 (the title is not automatically given the eldest daughter).

The next HMS Princess Royal, launched in 1853 was originally to have been named HMS Prince Albert but instead honoured Queen Victoria and Albert's eldest daughter Victoria Adelaide Mary Louisa.

The battlecruiser HMS Princess Royal was named in honour of Louise Victoria Alexandra Dagmar who was awarded the title in 1905 and she actually launched the ship.

Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood died in 1965, oddly despite being incumbent between 1932 and 1965 and the mass of wartime naval building the name was not reused for a RN ship.

Generally Royal names seem to fall out of favour post-1918 - having HMS Queen Mary vapourised at Jutland might have put a damper on the idea. Few WW2 ships were named after Royals.
King George V commemorated the previous Monarch and the previous battleship to bear his Reginal name and number. Duke of York was, in hindsight, an odd choice to honour George VI as Albert ceased to be Duke of York in December 1936, a month after the ship was ordered. It is surprising the ship was not renamed King George VI before it was laid down in 1937 - or perhaps having two Georges in the same class was considered too confusing?

Anyway, not until the 'New Elizabethan Age' does it seem to have been 'cool' to use Royal names again.
As to accuracy of Wikipedia or any other account, I've recently read an Air Historical Branch paper that claimed that CVA-01 was to be named HMS Furious. So even the other service branches have indulged in fantasy names as well.
 
Generally Royal names seem to fall out of favour post-1918 - having HMS Queen Mary vapourised at Jutland might have put a damper on the idea. Few WW2 ships were named after Royals.
I'll admit I am not really that well-versed in the History of the Royal Navy pre-WW2, and my knowledge of the Royal Family pretty much starts and ends with Queen Elizabeth II (rip). But my understanding is that, at least in the late 19th to the early 20th century, Royal Names were only used on battleships + battlecruisers. The exception being Ark Royal, which was named for an old 16th-century galleon rather than a direct royal.
Considering the lack of ships built during the interwar period due to the Washington Naval Treaty, wouldn't it be fair to attribute the scarcity of Royal names to the lack of battleships being built? The only ships that would've been eligible for a royal name were the KGV-class, of which 3 received Royal Names.
Anyway, not until the 'New Elizabethan Age' does it seem to have been 'cool' to use Royal names again.
If anything, it seems to me that using Royal names was used even less during QE2's reign. Before the new Queen Elizabeth-class CV, I can't think of any RN ships that used a royal name since WW2. The exception once again being Ark Royal, albeit I'd argue that they named it after the WW2-era CV rather than anything to do with the Royal Family.
I've recently read an Air Historical Branch paper that claimed that CVA-01 was to be named HMS Furious
All things considered, CVA-01 being named Queen Elizabeth makes sense considering it was the first capital ship to be built in QE2 reign. That would keep in line with the tradition (ignoring King George VI), except the names being now applied to CVs instead of Battleships/Battlecruisers. And considering her husband's naval roots, the Duke of Edinburgh makes sense to me for CVA-02. Considering this is backed up by Rebuilding the Royal Navy by David Brown and George Moore I'm heavily inclined to believe it.

I also decided to check the edit history, that blurb was added by a random IP on December 14, 2021. The source they cited is an archived website from 2007, hasn't worked since 2010, and was actually added in December 2007 as a source for the names of QE and DoE. That website only mentions the QE & DoE, not the Prince of Wales or Princess Royal at all. Add to that your point about there being no Princess Royal from 1965-1987, I think it's safe to say someone just made up the names. But since it's a pretty niche topic, it's flown under the radar and we've fallen victim to a citation cascade.

I honestly doubt CVA-03 or CVA-04 ever existed beyond the original 1960 Fleet Requirements Committee stating the Royal Navy needed 4 carriers to replace Victorious, Eagle, Ark Royal, and Hermes. Even before the 1966 Defense White Paper, I suspect the RN ditched the idea of 4 carriers and was only considering 2 carriers to just replace Eagle and Ark Royal.

Realistically- if CVA-03 or CVA-04 had been built, depending on when the (Audacious-class) HMS Ark Royal ( Possibly 1975?) was actually retired, I'd bet they'd reuse the name Ark Royal for a CVA just like they did for the Invincible-class carrier. For the other CVA, I'm pretty partial to HMS Furious or HMS Argus. But keeping with the royal theme tho, I'm partial to the name HMS Prince of Wales but feels a bit on the nose considering the new QE-class. Or even the HMS Duke of York. More as a tribute to the WW2 battleships at this point than for the affiliation with royalty, but still.

TLDR; People make shit up on the internet
 
All things considered, CVA-01 being named Queen Elizabeth makes sense considering it was the first capital ship to be built in QE2 reign. That would keep in line with the tradition (ignoring King George VI), except the names being now applied to CVs instead of Battleships/Battlecruisers.
The supposed tradition wasn't around when Victoria and her predecessors reigned, the first battleships of Edward VII and George V's reigns were named for them, Edward VIII didn't reign long enough to draw a conclusion, and wasn't applied when George VI reigned. Neither CVA-01 nor the current QUEEN ELIZABETH were really named for Elizabeth II, either - the regnal numbers matter!

As traditions go, it really only lasted a decade. Which, in the centuries of the Royal Navy's existence, makes it less a tradition and more a historical happenstance.
 
I wasn’t referring to that tradition. Rather, I am referring to the traditional naming convention of using Royal Names on Capital Ships, which goes back centuries. CVA-01 was the first capital ship to be built during her regency, and it was the first opportunity to name a ship after her.

Also, I get where you are coming from that yes- technically the HMS Queen Elizabeth wasn’t named after Lizzie II. But considering CVA-02 was allegedly going to be named the Duke of Edinburgh, her husbands title… At the very least, it was certainly a nod to the new Queen, even if it wasn’t actually technically named after her.

And I’d argue that the name for CVA-01 and the current CV is influenced by naming it after the Battleship. Especially considering her sistership is Prince of Wales. That feels very intentional, and it sorta allows them to pay tribute to 3 different things- Queen Elizabeth I, HMS Queen Elizabeth (1913), and Queen Elizabeth II.
 
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Ship naming conventions is an interesting topic in its own right - probably not suitable for this thread, but interesting nonetheless.

Interestingly the armoured cruiser HMS Duke of Edinburgh was built after Prince Alfred had died in 1900 (laid down in 1903). No-one had held the title since 1820 and there was no subsequent incumbent until Philip in 1947, indeed Albert should have been Duke of York but Victoria revived the title Duke of Edinburgh instead.
HMS Duke of Edinburgh was proposed for the GW96A guided-missile cruiser cancelled in 1957. CVA-02 was the second bite of the cherry...
 
I accept that this is going completely off the original subject matter, but a VERY QUICK search resulted in the following list of ‘Royal’ and ‘Aristocratic’ Royal (and ‘English’) Navy ships names…

I be appreciate some connections are somewhat ‘loose’, and some are former pleasure steamers taken into war service…

I left out Royal Yachts and also the Type 23 Frigate names on purpose, as, although they are ‘Duke’ names, I think there are plenty to go from here!

Ark Royal
Countess of Carinthia
Countess of Hopetoun
Countess of Scarborough
Crown
Duke
Duke of Albany
Duke of Argyll
Duke of Clarence
Duke of Cornwall
Duke of Edinburgh
Duke of Kent
Duke of Lancaster
Duke of Rothesay
Duke of Wellington
Duke of York
Earl
Earl of Chatham
Earl of Denbigh
Earl of Egmont
Earl of Halifax
Earl of Inchquin
Earl of Loudon
Earl of Northampton
Earl of Peterborough
Earl Roberts
Great Harry
King Alfred
King David
King Edward VII
King George V
King George VI
King Henry
King of Prussia
King Orry
King Sol
Lord Warden
Lord Clive
Lord Eldon
Lord Howe
Lord Melville
Lord Mulgrave
Lord Nelson
Lord Nuffield
Lord Raglan
Lord Roberts
Loyalist
Loyal London
Prince
Prince Albert
Prince Arthur
Prince Augustus Frederick
Prince Charles
Prince Consort
Prince de Neuchatel
Prince Edward
Prince Eugene
Prince Frederick
Prince George
Prince Henry
Prince Leopold
Prince of Orange
Prince of Wales
Prince Regent
Prince Royal
Prince Rupert
Prince William
Princess
Princess Alice
Princess Amelia
Princess Anne
Princess Augusta
Princess Carolina
Princess Caroline
Princess Charlotte
Princess Ena
Princess Irene
Princess Iris
Princess Louisa
Princess Margaret
Princess Maria
Princess Mary
Princess of Orange
Princess Royal
Princess Sophia Frederica
Princessa
Princesse
Prins Albert
Prinses Astrid
Prinses Beatrix
Queen
Queen Charlotte
Queen Elizabeth
Queen Emma
Queen Mab
Queen Mary
Queen of Kent
Royal Adelaide
Royal Albert
Royal Alfred
Royal Anne
Royal Anne Galley
Royal Arthur
Royal Charles
Royal Charlotte
Royal Eagle
Royal George
Royal James
Royal Katherine
Royal Marine
Royal Oak
Royal Prince
Royal Scotsman
Royal Sovereign
Royal Ulsterman
Royal William
Royalist
Sceptre
 
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Maybe we could carve off the naming convention discussion to the Designation Systems subforum or something?
 
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