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Rocket fuel

BAROBA

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Hi all,

I have a question that I wanted to post for a couple of weeks now, and finally did it :)

About rocketfuel:
During WW2 the Germans used T- and C-stoff for the Me-163.
(T = hydroperoxide, C = Hydrazinhydrate and Methanol)
Both were highly dangerous for any handling them.
Many accidents happened even with nearly empty tanks.

Nowadays we have a rocket that can reach space with another kind of rocketfuel.
SpaceShipOne uses Nitrous oxide(N²O) and rubber(Hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene (HTPB) to be precise).
Both can't exploded and aren't dangerous for anyone handling them.

The obvious question is of course, why didn't the Germans use a much saver fuel? Is the use of C and T-stoff much more fuel-efficient? Or was that the lack of HTPB ( I know rubber was scarce in Germany at the time) that influenced the choice? Or were there other reasons to choice this kind of rocketfuel?

Kind regards,

Rob
 

Orionblamblam

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BAROBA said:
SpaceShipOne uses Nitrous oxide(N²O) and rubber(Hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene (HTPB) to be precise).
Both can't exploded and aren't dangerous for anyone handling them.
Three dead people at Scaled Composites might argue with that assessment.

http://www.space.com/news/070727_scaled_explosion_update.html

The obvious question is of course, why didn't the Germans use a much saver fuel? Is the use of C and T-stoff much more fuel-efficient?
The reasons why the Germans used C & T were largely due to:
1) Operations: both propellants could be stored as liquids in simple containers at room temperature and pressure
2) No need for cryogens or extremely high pressure tanks

As well as:
3) The Germans *knew* these propellants
4) C & T combust easily and reliably (hybrids are much trickier to get ignited
 

mz

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And if you use a liquid engine, you can just refuel the thing and fly again. Compare to a solid or hybrid where you have to cast a propellant grain. Though you could make it easily changeable and stockpile the solids.

There was some speculation somewhere on what solid fuel chemistries would have been theoretically discovered and available during WW2. Apparently some asphalt-based ones that were not entirely sucky in performance. In reality, solid fuel development trailed liquids by a decade or a few...
 
K

Kiwiguy

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The Germans developed an A4 rocket for their U-boat towed Lafferenz capsules which did not need hydrogen peroxide powered turbopumps. This rocket called the A-8 instead used a mixture of Nitric Acid and Diesel fuel or Kerosene pressed from the tanks with High pressure nitrogen.

The A-8 produced 66,000lb thrust for 90 seconds

The conventional A4 using Alcohol and Liquid Oxygen produced 55,000lb for 60 seconds thus the A-8 offered ranges of about 600nm with comparable payload.
 

Michel Van

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oh yes the french used that A-8 technology
for there Super-V2 project version R-1
more here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5865.0.html
after the cancellation of Super-V2
the German engineers made a 1/10 Test Model called Project 4213 / Veronique
but it used Nitric Acid and Turpentine as fuel because combustion problems with Nitric Acid and Kerosene
Veronique is base for Diamant, Cora, Ariane Rocket.
 
K

Kiwiguy

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Thanks Michel.

I was unsure if the Germans ever tested the A-8 and until you mentioned it I hadn't realised they did so with a scaled model.

Yes Herman Grottrup in Soviet captivity developed the A-8 concept further too, however they wanted to move beyond his G-2 rocket straight to the R-2.

I gather the A-8 concept was also tried with diesel rather than kerosene.
 

Michel Van

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Kiwiguy said:
Thanks Michel.

I was unsure if the Germans ever tested the A-8 and until you mentioned it I hadn't realised they did so with a scaled model.

Yes Herman Grottrup in Soviet captivity developed the A-8 concept further too, however they wanted to move beyond his G-2 rocket straight to the R-2.

I gather the A-8 concept was also tried with diesel rather than kerosene.
so far is know A-8 was only a technology study, as fuel was consider Salbei and Gasöl
Salbei or S-Stoff = 96 % nitric acid + 4 % ferrochlorid
Gasöl or = synthetic Diesel from Coal by Fischer–Tropsch process

source:
Scott Lowther APR pN5V6 page 13 & 14
page 14 show the German drawings of A-8 with information.
to buy here
http://www.up-ship.com/eAPR/pv5n6.htm
 
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