RN Tiger class options

For the non-RN specialists, these two links are a major relieve.


  • County class, 8x 8-inch
    • Kent group10,570 tons
      • Cumberland (1928) – scrapped 1959
      • Berwick (1928) – scrapped 1948
      • Cornwall (1928) – bombed 1942
      • Suffolk (1928) – scrapped 1948
      • Kent (1928) – scrapped 1948
      • Australia (1928) – Royal Australian Navy, scrapped 1955
      • Canberra (1928) – Royal Australian Navy, torpedoed 1942
    • London group9,830 tons
      • London (1929) – scrapped 1950
      • Devonshire (1929) – scrapped 1954
      • Shropshire (1929) – to Royal Australian Navy 1943, scrapped 1955
      • Sussex (1929) – scrapped 1950
    • Norfolk group10,300 tons
      • Norfolk (1930) – scrapped 1950
      • Dorsetshire (1930) – sunk by dive bombers in Far East 1942
  • York classmodified County design 8,250 tons, 6x 8-inch
    • York (1930) – damaged by explosive motor boats, salvage abandoned and wrecked 1941, scrapped 1952
    • Exeter (1931) – sunk 1942, Far East


 
Any similarities between this and Post 333 in the alternatehistory.com thread The third Audacious class carrier - what might have been ? by someone with the user name NOMISYRRUC are absolutely deliberate

According to DK Brown in Rebuilding the Royal Navy and Leo Marriott in British Aircraft Carriers 1945-1990 Blake's conversion (1965-69) cost £5.5 million and Tiger's (1968-72) cost £13.25 million.

According to Brown in 1963 the projected cost of the conversions (known as Scheme "Z") was £2 million per ship and each refit would take 15 months to complete. However, the total cost of the programme soon rose to £12 million for the dockyard work (£4 million per ship) and £10.5 million for the Wessex Mk 3 helicopters.

According to the Bank of England Inflation Calculator £4 million in 1964 was worth £4.92 million in 1969 and £6.14 million in 1972. Furthermore £5.5 million in 1969 was worth £6.86 million in 1972.

So each ship took 2-3 times longer than intended to convert and after allowing for inflation Blake's refit seems to have cost about 10% more than the estimate and Tiger's refit seems to have cost double the original estimate.
 
Any similarities between this and Post 334 in the alternatehistory.com thread The third Audacious class carrier - what might have been ? by someone with the user name NOMISYRRUC are absolutely deliberate

As I still have the book open the decision to complete the Tiger class was made because (AFAIK in July 1954) the ships would have cost £6 million and taken 3 years to complete while new ships of comparable size and armament would have cost £12 million and taken 5 years each to build.

According to the Bank of England Inflation Calculator £6 million in 1954 was worth £7.06 million in 1959, £7.13 million in 1960 and £7.38 million in 1961. So after allowing for inflation each ship cost about double the estimate.

New ships of comparable size and armament would probably taken longer than 5 years to build at a cost more than the estimate of £12 million (or £14.12 million in 1959, £14.26 million in 1960 and £14.76 million in 1961 after allowing for inflation). However, I doubt very much that they would have escalated to nearly double the estimated cost of completing the Tigers.

For a start the armament and electronics would have cost the same. Furthermore the following changes had to be made:
  • all the superstructure, gun supports, minor bulkheads and most of the services were stripped out;
  • all the auxiliary machinery and equipment had to be modified or replaced so that it could operate entirely AC electrical system.
So it looks as if when completed in 1959-61 all that was left of the ships as they existed in the middle of 1954 was the hull up to the main deck and the machinery.

It might have been just the hull up to the main deck because Brown says that re-boilering was considered but was ruled out by the Admiralty, as the advantages would not compensate for the delay and expense incurred.

Not in the original post on alternativehistory.com were the building costs of the Tiger class (which are according to Brown & Moore and Jane's 1962-63) were as follows:
£13,113,000 Tiger completed March 1959​
£14,375,000 Lion completed July 1960​
£14,940,000 Blake completed March 1961​
Some other things that Brown and Moore wrote that I didn't include in the original post were that there that were clearly severe limitations for the by the time the ships were complete they would have been in the water for at least 12 years, whilst their hulls and machinery were of pre-war design and layout in all respects. There was also going to be considerable congestion within the hull structure with accommodation standards being low due to the incorporation of equipment not specified in the original design.
 
Last edited:
They would better have taken £30 million out of a bank, put that money in a steel case with lots of led, and dropped the whole thing into the Thames estuary or the Channel...

Just nuke them at Montebello in 1957, problem solved and tons of money spared.
 
They would better have taken £30 million out of a bank, put that money in a steel case with lots of led, and dropped the whole thing into the Thames estuary or the Channel...

Just nuke them at Montebello in 1957, problem solved and tons of money spared.
Post 3 of the thread Royal Navy Destroyers and Frigates post 1966
This is the third paragraph from Page One of Mr Williams essay.
It must be emphasised that this is not intended to be critical of the decisions made at the time; they were influenced by countless political, financial and practical considerations and I have no reason to doubt that those responsible made the best decisions they could, in the light of the information then available.
For what it's worth I think that statement should be applied to more than a few alternative history topics.
 
The building costs of the Tiger class once again.
£13,113,000 Tiger completed March 1959​
£14,375,000 Lion completed July 1960​
£14,940,000 Blake completed March 1961​

Does anyone know how much of that money was spent:
  1. Up to when the ships were suspended?
  2. While the ships where suspended?
  3. Completing the ships to the revised design?
 
The illustration shows four twin 40mm but the text says three twin 40mm.
The plan shows five, 2 abreast the bridge, 2 abreast the Type 901 and one on the centreline (I'm guessing that there wasn't enough margin left to fit six twins). Could be another Friedman typo, though its equally possible that there was another version with the mounts forward, for example, omitted to give three twins.
What is interesting is that DACR was never considered for these ships, actually I'm not sure any of the earlier members of the GW series had provision for this nebulous gun mount (ultimately 3in/70 replaced it).
Presumably Swiftsure, Superb and Tiger were considered too valuable for the surface role to be converted, the Fijis being somewhat expendable so available for a cut and shut conversion. It must be said though, a Fiji conversion offers very little that the County couldn't do, and as your dimensions table shows, the ideal GW cruiser (GW96A) was a monster (120ft longer, 18ft beamier and about twice the displacement).
 
The illustration shows four twin 40mm but the text says three twin 40mm.
The plan shows five, 2 abreast the bridge, 2 abreast the Type 901 and one on the centreline (I'm guessing that there wasn't enough margin left to fit six twins). Could be another Friedman typo, though its equally possible that there was another version with the mounts forward, for example, omitted to give three twins.
I saw it after uploading to the post. Which I didn't correct because I couldn't be arsed.
 
It must be said though, a Fiji conversion offers very little that the County couldn't do...
The one thing a Fiji conversion could do that a County couldn't was engage two aircraft at the same time on account of having two Type 901 radars instead of one.

However, Friedman doesn't say whether the Fiji conversion would have had CDS and DPT like the County class Batch I. Based on the following it looks like the Fiji conversion wouldn't have had them.

County class Batch I also had the Type 965 AKE-1 radar instead of the Fiji's Type 960. However, that could have been because that radar wasn't available when the Fiji conversion was studied. On the other hand it could have been omitted because it was too heavy, which is rather plausible to me because the requirement for the Fiji class conversion included:
  • Seaslug with 48 missiles replacing all after armament. The magazine would be built atop the hull as a superstructure.
  • One Type 984 radar and full fighter-direction facilities.
  • One triple 6in turret forward and four twin L70 Bofors guns.
The result wasn't stable so the number of missiles was cut from 48 to 24 and the Type 984 radar replaced by Types 960, 982 and 983.

However, that wasn't satisfactory either with the result that.
  • Fighter direction was abandoned altogether with the Type 982/983 combination replaced by a Type 277Q.
  • A new bridge accommodating better AIO facilities was to have been fitted.
  • L60 Bofors guns instead of the L70s.
Viz.
Another possibility of immediate interest was a Fiji (not a Tiger) class conversion, the missile system (with forty-eight missiles) replacing all after armament. The ship would be fitted with a Type 984 radar and full fighter-direction facilities. The ship would retain only her forward triple 6in turret and would have four twin L70 Bofors guns. As in contemporary US plans to convert Cleveland class light cruisers, the entire missile magazine would be built atop the hull as a superstructure. Unfortunately the result was not stable, so the missile magazine had to rethought, the number of missiles halved, and the massive Type 984 replaced by the far less capable Type 982/983 combination and the Type 960 air-search radar. Unfortunately, as long as any protection was provided, the rethought missile stowage saved too little weight, and it represented too much weight too high in the ship. The next step down was to abandon fighter control altogether, replacing the Type 982/983 combination with an even less capable Type 277Q height-finder, the radar eventually installed on board ‘County’ class missile destroyers. Further steps down included a new bridge (because the ship had grossly inadequate AIO facilities), and the replacement of the L70 Bofors by wartime type twin L60s. None of this was particularly attractive, and although stability was recovered, in the end the design showed an unacceptable 3ft 2in trim by the stern.
 
Last edited:
Presumably Swiftsure, Superb and Tiger were considered too valuable for the surface role to be converted, the Fijis being somewhat expendable so available for a cut and shut conversion.
The sketch design was produced in October 1954.

Therefore, I'm guessing that the reason why the Fiji class was chosen instead of the newer ships was that at the time it was still intended to rebuild Superb and Swiftsure to Tiger standards (Swiftsure's was actually begun) and the construction of Blake, Lion and Tiger (to the revised design) had recently resumed so that they weren't available for conversion.

Depending upon one's point of view a conversion of Swiftsure or Tiger to the same standard as the Fiji study would have been better or not as bad. This is because the former was a foot beamier and the latter was two feet beamier. Therefore, the stability problem would not have been as bad.

I'm guessing that Belfast wasn't studied for two reasons. First there was only one ship available for conversion while 7 Colony class were available at the time. (Before anyone says 8 were available in 1954 I've not counted Nigeria which was sold to India in 1954.) Secondly Belfast was due to start a major refit in 1955 and I'm guessing that it was too late to change plans even if the Admiralty wanted to.

According to Morris, Belfast was 41 feet longer than a Fiji between perpendiculars, 58 feet longer overall and 3¼ feet beamier. Therefore, my guess is that she had enough space and margin for at least the Type 984 radar and possibly the 48-round Seaslug magazine and L70 Bofors guns.
 
...and as your dimensions table shows, the ideal GW cruiser (GW96A) was a monster (120ft longer, 18ft beamier and about twice the displacement).
And unlike the Fiji study it did have:
  • Two twin 6in gun turrets instead of one triple 6" turret.
  • Four twin 3in gun turrets instead of the three (or four or five) twin 40mm L60 mountings.
  • One Type 984 radar and fighter direction facilities, which would have included CDS.
  • 64 Seaslug missiles instead of 24.
However, it would have had a much larger crew. GW96 had a complement of 1,115 according to Brown & Moore as well as Friedman v the Fiji's accommodation for 790. However, GW96's accommodation would have been to 1950s standards and the Fiji study retained the ship's late 1930s standard accommodation.
 
Last edited:
County class Batch I also had the Type 965 AKE-1 radar instead of the Fiji's Type 960. However, that could have been because that radar wasn't available when the Fiji conversion was studied.
None of the GW cruiser studies during 1954-55 had Type 965.
The Staff Requirement for a Type 960 replacement was raised in 1950 but the selection of Marconi's design wasn't made until 1955 (beating the AN/SPS-6C, LW-02 and a slower-rotation Type 992 proposal). It seems to have been earmarked for air direction frigates at that stage.

Between September 1954 to January 1955 the cruisers in the GW series either offer Type 984 or Type 960, but after Jan 1955 Type 960 is dropped entirely and it becomes either Type 984 or reliance on Type 992. The GW Destroyer did though gain the 965 over the earlier 960 as the design firmed up during 1955.

I share your suspicion that CDS and DPT were lacking in these Fiji conversion studies.
 
According to Morris, Belfast was 41 feet longer than a Fiji between perpendiculars, 58 feet longer overall and 3¼ feet beamier. Therefore, my guess is that she had enough space and margin for at least the Type 984 radar and possibly the 48-round Seaslug magazine and L70 Bofors guns.
A Seaslug Belfast parked on the Thames would be interesting, as her front half would memorialize her World War 2 service while the back half did the same for the dawn of Britain's guided missile development. That being said, a Seaslug Belfast might have been scrapped as no longer being a fully appropriate memorial to the class.

Back to the topic of discussion: in retrospect, IMHO the correct decision was to scrap the Tiger-class hulls and start again. If you're determined to finish them, then bite the bullet and build them as originally intended, as Minotaurs (i.e. near-sisters to Ontario). Get them into the water and in commissioned quickly, with the best existing radar and FCS their hulls can carry, and defer any major reconstruction until after they've given ten or fifteen years' service.
 
Some cruiser complements according to the copies of Jane's 1960-61 onwards that are available on Internet Archive and the copy of Jane's 1955-56 at Redcar Central Library:
  • Dido class;
    • 535-551 peace Bellona and Black Prince (on loan to the RNZN) according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 550 to 620 peace Argonaut, Cleopatra, Dido, Euryalus, Phoebe and Sirius according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 588 peace Diadem and Royalist according to Jane's 1955-56;
  • Edinburgh and Southampton classes;
    • 706 to 717 peace Sheffield according to Jane's 1960-61, 1961-62 and 1962-63;
    • 710 peace (52 officers, 658 men) Belfast according to Jane's 1960-61 onwards;
    • 717-833 peace Birmingham, Glasgow, Newcastle and Sheffield according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 847 peace Belfast according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 850 Liverpool according to Jane's 1955-56;
  • Colony and Swiftsure classes;
    • 730 peace (980 war) Bermuda, Gambia, Jamaica, Kenya and Mauritius according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 750 peace (980 war) Bermuda according to Jane's 1960-61 and 1961-62;
    • 750 peace (980 war) Gambia according to Jane's 1960-61;
    • 766 peace Ceylon according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 808 peace Newfoundland according to Jane's 1955-56;
    • 885 peace (960 war) Swiftsure according to Janes 1955-56 and 1960-61;
    • 867 peace (1,000 (war) Superb according to Jane's 1955-56;
  • Tiger class;
    • 1,000 Tiger class as originally designed according to Jane's 1955-56. The book didn't say so but my guess is that this is the war complement and that the peace complement would have been similar to Superb and Swiftsure.
    • 698 peace (53 officers, 645 ratings) peace 900 (war) Tiger according to Jane's 1960-61; 1961-62 and 1962-63;
    • 716 (52 officers, 664 ratings) Blake according to Jane's 1961-62 and 1962-63;
    • 717 (52 officers, 665 ratings) Lion according to Jane's 1961-62 and 1962-63;
    • 716 (52 officers, 664 ratings) Tiger class in their Gun Cruiser configuration according to Jane's 1967-68 and 1968-69;
    • 885 (85 officers, 800 ratings) Tiger class in their Helicopter Cruiser configuration according to Jane's 1969-70 onwards.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to propose four scenarios: 1935; 1941; 1945; and 1951. Many of you will dislike Scenarios 1945 and 1951. A few of you will hate Scenarios 1935 and 1941.

My next posts will be Scenarios 1951 and 1945 in that order.
 
Scenario 1951
  • The Tiger class
    • Hawke was still cancelled in 1945.
    • Blake, Lion & Tiger were still suspended in 1946 but they were scrapped incomplete in 1951.
  • The Bellerophon class
    • Blake, Lion & Tiger were broken up in 1951 because the Admiralty had decided that it was more cost effective to build new ships than rebuild existing ships to the same standard.
    • In late 1954 it was planned to build a class of six new cruisers to be named Bellerophon, Centurion, Edgar, Mars, Minotaur & Neptune instead of completing Blake, Lion & Tiger and the rebuilds of Belfast, Superb & Swiftsure that were planned in the "Real World" at that date.
    • Four ships were actually built. That is three ships instead of completing Blake, Lion & Tiger and one ship built instead of modernising Belfast. They were laid down in 1955 and completed 1959-61. The four ships were named Bellerophon, Centurion, Edgar & Mars.
    • A fifth ship to be named Minotaur might have been laid down in 1957 and cancelled in 1959 instead of the rebuild of Swiftsure that was begun in 1957 and abandoned in 1959.
    • The Bellerophon class had the same armament as the Tiger class plus Type 984, CDS and DPT.
    • They'd cost more to build than Blake, Lion & Tiger and Belfast's refit and they'd require larger crews.
    • However, they'd be a lot more useful on account of having Type 984, CDS & DPT and therefore worth keeping in service beyond the middle 1960s.
  • So the end result was
    • Four Bellerophon class armed with four 6" in two twin Mk 26 turrets and six 3" in three twin turrets plus Type 984, CDS & DPT completed 1959-61.
    • Instead of three Tiger class completed 1959-61 and Belfast modernised 1955-59.
  • The Argus class aircraft carriers
    • The Admiralty decided to build a class of six aircraft carriers displacing 35,000 tons under the Nine Year Plan of 1948 instead of modernising the Illustrious class.
    • In common with the "Real World" this was reduced to four ships under the Revised Restricted Fleet of 1949.
    • The first ship named Argus was laid down in 1950 instead of Victorious. In common with Victorious her design was altered several times so her completion was delayed from 1954 to 1958.
    • A second ship named Furious was laid down in 1952 and completed in 1959.
      • Furious might have been built instead of completing Hermes which would have been scrapped in 1952.
      • Or Hermes was completed in 1955 as a standard Centaur class ship with a pair of 139ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults instead of the pair of BH.V hydraulic catapults that her sisters were completed with.
    • The third and fourth ships were not built because it was decided to build a pair of aircraft carriers displacing 53,000 tons in their place, but in common with the pair or 1952 Carriers that were planned in the "Real World" neither was built.
Please inform me by Private Message if you spot any silly mistakes so that I can make the corrections.
 
Last edited:
Scenario 1945
  • The Tiger class
    • Hawke wasn't cancelled in 1945.
    • Blake, Lion & Tiger weren't suspended in 1946.
    • The four ships were completed by 1951 to the original design.
    • According to Brown & Moore their Mk 24 turrets were nearing completion when the ships were suspended and when the Korean War broke out they were in store at Rosyth Dockyard although some were incomplete.
  • The Bellerophon class
    • In common with Scenario 1945 the Admiralty had decided that it was more cost effective to build new ships than rebuild existing ships to the same standard.
    • In late 1954 it was planned to build a class of six new cruisers to be named Bellerophon, Centurion, Edgar, Mars, Minotaur & Neptune instead of completing Blake, Lion & Tiger and the rebuilds of Belfast, Superb & Swiftsure that were planned in the "Real World" at that date.
    • Four ships were actually built. That is three ships instead of completing Blake, Lion & Tiger and one ship built instead of modernising Belfast. They were laid down in 1955 and completed 1959-61. The four ships were named Bellerophon, Centurion, Edgar and Mars.
    • A fifth ship to be named Minotaur might have been laid down in 1957 and cancelled in 1959 instead of the rebuild of Swiftsure that was begun in 1957 and abandoned in 1959.
    • The Bellerophon class had the same armament as the Tiger class plus Type 984, CDS and DPT.
    • They'd cost more to build than Blake, Lion & Tiger and Belfast's refit and they'd require larger crews.
    • However, they'd be a lot more useful on account of having Type 984, CDS & DPT and therefore worth keeping in service beyond the middle 1960s.
  • So the end result was
    • Four Tiger class armed with nine 6" in three triple Mk 24 turrets and ten 4" in five twin mountings completed by 1951.
      • And.
    • Four Bellerophon class armed with four 6" in two twin Mk 26 turrets and six 3" in three twin turrets plus Type 984, CDS & DPT completed 1959-61.
    • Instead of three Tigers completed 1959-61 and Belfast modernised 1955-59.
  • The Argus class aircraft carriers
    • The Admiralty decided to build a class of six aircraft carriers displacing 35,000 tons under the Nine Year Plan of 1948 instead of modernising the Illustrious class.
    • In common with the "Real World" this was reduced to four ships under the Revised Restricted Fleet of 1949.
    • The first ship named Argus was laid down in 1950 instead of Victorious. In common with Victorious her design was altered several times so her completion was delayed from 1954 to 1958.
    • A second ship named Furious was laid down in 1952 and completed in 1959.
      • Furious might have been built instead of completing Hermes which would have been scrapped in 1952.
      • Or Hermes was completed in 1955 as a standard Centaur class ship with a pair of 139ft stroke BS.4 steam catapults instead of the pair of BH.V hydraulic catapults that her sisters were completed with.
    • The third and fourth ships were not built because it was decided to build a pair of aircraft carriers displacing 53,000 tons in their place, but in common with the pair or 1952 Carriers that were planned in the "Real World" neither was built.
Please inform me by Private Message if you spot any silly mistakes so that I can make the corrections.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to propose four scenarios: 1935; 1941; 1945; and 1951. Many of you will dislike Scenarios 1945 and 1951. A few of you will hate Scenarios 1935 and 1941.

My next posts will be Scenarios 1951 and 1945 in that order.
How is the plausibility of each scenario affected by who's actually in government? Is a Labour government in 1951 for example likely to act significantly different than Churchill's OTL administration?
 
I'm going to propose four scenarios: 1935; 1941; 1945; and 1951. Many of you will dislike Scenarios 1945 and 1951. A few of you will hate Scenarios 1935 and 1941.

My next posts will be Scenarios 1951 and 1945 in that order.
How is the plausibility of each scenario affected by who's actually in government? Is a Labour government in 1951 for example likely to act significantly different than Churchill's OTL administration?
No effect whatsoever.

In the scenarios uploaded so far the critical decision (i.e. build new ships instead of rebuild existing ships) was made between 5th July 1945 and 25th October 1951 whilst Clement Atlee was Prime Minister. The Ministers of Defence, First Lords of the Admiralty and Chancellors of the Exchequer during that period were:
  • Ministers of Defence:
    • Clement Atlee (1945-46),
    • A.V. Alexander (1946-50)
    • Emanuel Shinwell (1950-51)
  • First Lords of the Admiralty:
    • A.V. Alexander (1945-46)
    • Lord Hall (1946-51)
    • Lord Longford (1951) Yes! That Lord Longford!
  • Chancellor of the Exchequer:
    • Hugh Dalton (1945-47)
    • Stafford Cripps (1947-50)
    • Hugh Gaitskell (1950-51)
And the decision was made by the Naval Staff and Board of Admiralty rather than the Cabinet and I think the politicians would have followed the advice of the admirals.

Finally, all the British military expansion that was precipitated by the Korean War was initiated by the Atlee Government. This included the 1951 Rearmament Programme under which £4,700 million was to have been spent in the 3 financial years starting on 1st April 1951 and end ending on 31st March 1954. It was the governments of Winston Churchill (1951-55), Anthony Eden (1955-57) and Harold McMillian (1955-63) that made the cuts.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom