RAN 50's and 60's missile conversions

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Caryina2642

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In the 50's and 60s the RAN had planned to convert HMAS Hobart into a guided missile cruiser and the 2x Battle & 3x Daring Class into guided missile destroyer.
I believe with the Daring's it was planned to replace 1 of the 4.5inch turrets with a Tartar launcher (I think it was going to be the aft one, not a 100%) and if possible the limbo mortar was to be replaced by Ikara.
Would this be the same with the Battles?
Additionally how would HMAS Hobart conversion look?
  • Would she keep the front 6inch guns or would they be replaced with missiles?
  • Which missile would be used Terrier or Tartar?
 
Caryina2642 said:
In the 50's and 60s the RAN had planned to convert HMAS Hobart into a guided missile cruiser and the 2x Battle & 3x Daring Class into guided missile destroyer.
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Won't be easy to modernize HMAS Hobart; it was quite small & old. Her modernization proposals dated to 1955, which means they involved either RIM-2 Terrier or early iteration of Seaslug missiles. Installing something as big as RIM-2 Terrier GMLS on her - presumably, the Mk-4 type, with vertical missile storage - would likely require "Garibaldi"-scale refit. I.e. all her main turrets and secondaries would be removed, the stern one replaced with Mk-4 Terrier GMLS, and the bow ones replaced with DP guns.

I suspect that the end result would looks a bit like after-refit Colbert; a pair of 4.5-inch DP on bow (to ensure commonality with destroyers), and missile system on stern.
 
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Caryina2642 said:
I believe with the Daring's it was planned to replace 1 of the 4.5inch turrets with a Tartar launcher (I think it was going to be the aft one, not a 100%) and if possible the limbo mortar was to be replaced by Ikara.
Would this be the same with the Battles?
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The installation of RIM-24 Tartar Mk-11/Mk-13 GMLS in place of rear 4.5-inch turret is perfectly possible. Not much of problem there (well, except the early Tartar being next to unworkable).

Ikara, on the other hand, would require a lot of under-deck space for her magazine. I rather doubt it would fit into space from Limbo. Most likely, a mid-hull superstructure with launcher on top would need to be erected between destroyer funnels.

Caryina2642 said:
Would this be the same with the Battles?
Click to expand...
Installing Tartar - likely yes, but might require removal of upper 4.5-inch turret to compensate for extra weight.
 
Dilandu said:
Won't be easy to modernize HMAS Hobart; it was quite small & old. Her modernization proposals dated to 1955, which means they involved either RIM-2 Terrier or early iteration of Seaslug missiles. Installing something as big as RIM-2 Terrier GMLS on her - presumably, the Mk-4 type, with vertical missile storage - would likely require "Garibaldi"-scale refit. I.e. all her main turrets and secondaries would be removed, the stern one replaced with Mk-4 Terrier GMLS, and the bow ones replaced with DP guns.

I suspect that the end result would looks a bit like after-refit Colbert; a pair of 4.5-inch DP on bow (to ensure commonality with destroyers), and missile system on stern.
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So 2 4.5 turrets up front and terrier after. Seacat when it comes available?
Dilandu said:
The installation of RIM-24 Tartar Mk-11/Mk-13 GMLS in place of rear 4.5-inch turret is perfectly possible. Not much of problem there (well, except the early Tartar being next to unworkable).

Ikara, on the other hand, would require a lot of under-deck space for her magazine. I rather doubt it would fit into space from Limbo. Most likely, a mid-hull superstructure with launcher on top would need to be erected between destroyer funnels.


Installing Tartar - likely yes, but might require removal of upper 4.5-inch turret to compensate for extra weight.
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Battles tartar only
Darings tartar and ikara

I've just fought if the RAN is doing all this conversion it would have got 4th daring and 5th n 6th rivers that where cancelled
Plus the 3x tribals and 5 qs get modernize
So the ddgs replace the tribals and the 5 type 15s get replaced by more type 12s
What replaces Hobart and when
 
Caryina2642 said:
So 2 4.5 turrets up front and terrier after. Seacat when it comes available?
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Likely yes. Not sure about Seacat - it wasn't particularly efficient, and RAN didn't use it much besides River-class ships.

Caryina2642 said:
Battles tartar only
Darings tartar and ikara
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Yes, probably like that. Battle's likely would be refitted first (since they are older), so they likely receive Mk-11 GMLS, while Daring's could get Mk-13 GMLS.
 
Dilandu said:
Likely yes. Not sure about Seacat - it wasn't particularly efficient, and RAN didn't use it much besides River-class ships.


Yes, probably like that. Battle's likely would be refitted first (since they are older), so they likely receive Mk-11 GMLS, while Daring's could get Mk-13 GMLS.
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The ran fitted seacat to melbounre, vampires and stalwart as well
Yeah
Hobart
Than battles
Than daring
 
Caryina2642 said:
The ran fitted seacat to melbounre, vampires and stalwart as well
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Hm, must admit, forgot about them.

P.S. One point. The Mk-4 GMLS for Hobart would only be able to use early Terrier models, with beam-riding guidance. It's magazines were not suited to later missiles, and USN didn't bother to adapt magazines, since Mk-4 were used only on three ships anyway ("Boston", "Canberra" and "Guiseppe Garibaldi").
 
Dilandu said:
Hm, must admit, forgot about them.

P.S. One point. The Mk-4 GMLS for Hobart would only be able to use early Terrier models, with beam-riding guidance. It's magazines were not suited to later missiles, and USN didn't bother to adapt magazines, since Mk-4 were used only on three ships anyway ("Boston", "Canberra" and "Guiseppe Garibaldi").
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I dont think that's really an issue, cause by 1970 Hobart would need replacing any probably
 
Caryina2642 said:
I dont think that's really an issue, cause by 1970 Hobart would need replacing any probably
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Hm, what about some better idea? To replace "Hobart" with a newer, more capable cruiser - for example, the HMS "Swiftshure", stuck in repair in late 1950s - which could be converted in longer-serving missile cruiser with Mk-10 Terrier GMLS. The Mk-10 would be capable of longer service, since its compatible with newer radar-homing RIM-2 Terrier missiles, as well as with RIM-67 Standard-ER missiles. And with hull modifications barely complete by 1959, the new cruiser could be expected to serve well into 1980s.
 
I suspect fitting Tartar to a Daring-class would require landing one of the forward 4.5" turrets as well in compensation for the increased topweight of the missile radars. Notably, the contemporary conversion of the Impetuoso-class would have required reducing weight by means of fitting a Mark 45 in place of the fore 5" twin, and the Forrest Sherman conversions could only fit a single SPG-51.
 
CV12Hornet said:
I suspect fitting Tartar to a Daring-class would require landing one of the forward 4.5" turrets as well in compensation for the increased topweight of the missile radars. Notably, the contemporary conversion of the Impetuoso-class would have required reducing weight by means of fitting a Mark 45 in place of the fore 5" twin, and the Forrest Sherman conversions could only fit a single SPG-51.
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Hm, you are right. Of course, it depend on what exactly the version of Tartar is used, Mk-13 or Mk-22.

The QF Mark 5 dual turret weighted about 45 tons.

The Mk-22 GMLS weighted 42 tons empty/51 tons loaded.

The Mk-13 GMLS weighted 61 tons empty/85 tons loaded.

The Mk-11 GMLS weighted about 75 tons empty/100 tons loaded.

So if we limit Daring refit to a Mk-22, then it would be possible to sacrifice just one turret. But the Mk-13 or Mk-11 would require dismounting two.
 
Dilandu said:
Hm, what about some better idea? To replace "Hobart" with a newer, more capable cruiser - for example, the HMS "Swiftshure", stuck in repair in late 1950s - which could be converted in longer-serving missile cruiser with Mk-10 Terrier GMLS. The Mk-10 would be capable of longer service, since its compatible with newer radar-homing RIM-2 Terrier missiles, as well as with RIM-67 Standard-ER missiles. And with hull modifications barely complete by 1959, the new cruiser could be expected to serve well into 1980s.
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That is a possibility, though unlikely. It would a good ship put Tiger class armament on it and the Terrier SAM would be a best of a ship in the 60s
CV12Hornet said:
I suspect fitting Tartar to a Daring-class would require landing one of the forward 4.5" turrets as well in compensation for the increased topweight of the missile radars. Notably, the contemporary conversion of the Impetuoso-class would have required reducing weight by means of fitting a Mark 45 in place of the fore 5" twin, and the Forrest Sherman conversions could only fit a single SPG-51.
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Would this apply to the battles as well?
Darings, 1x 4.5inch Turret, Tartar & Ikara
Battles, 1x 4.5inch Turret & Tartar
 
Caryina2642 said:
That is a possibility, though unlikely. It would a good ship put Tiger class armament on it and the Terrier SAM would be a best of a ship in the 60s

Would this apply to the battles as well?
Darings, 1x 4.5inch Turret, Tartar & Ikara
Battles, 1x 4.5inch Turret & Tartar
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Yes. Also, you're not fitting Tartar, Ikara, and a 4.5" turret. One of those is gonna have to go.
 
CV12Hornet said:
Yes. Also, you're not fitting Tartar, Ikara, and a 4.5" turret. One of those is gonna have to go.
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No, Replacing 2 of the 3 4.5inch turrets with Ikara & Tartar, These plenty of space. Ikara can wither go between the funnels or right at the end of the ship.
 
Caryina2642 said:
No, Replacing 2 of the 3 4.5inch turrets with Ikara & Tartar, These plenty of space. Ikara can wither go between the funnels or right at the end of the ship.
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That's not what the Royal Navy found when they were looking into refitting the Darings with Ikara. Or their Leanders, for that matter.
 
Caryina2642 said:
Would this apply to the battles as well?
Darings, 1x 4.5inch Turret, Tartar & Ikara
Battles, 1x 4.5inch Turret & Tartar
Click to expand...
I don't have weight data for Ikara on hands, unfortunately. But modified Yarra-class frigates apparently were able to carry it at the cost of one Limbo mortar & roughly 250 ton increase of displacement:

1760252697156.jpeg
 
CV12Hornet said:
That's not what the Royal Navy found when they were looking into refitting the Darings with Ikara. Or their Leanders, for that matter.
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Royal Navy example wasn't fully representative. Their version of Ikara was significantly different from Australian one, due to RN insistence that missiles needed to be serviced in sea (RAN used a "sealed round" concept, when malfunctioned missiles were simply detached from control system and left idle till the ship would return to port). Also, RN launcher was specially adapted to North Atlantic conditions, with anti-icing features.
 
Dilandu said:
I don't have weight data for Ikara on hands, unfortunately. But modified Yarra-class frigates apparently were able to carry it at the cost of one Limbo mortar & roughly 250 ton increase of displacement
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That doesn't seem terrible in terms of increased displacement for bigger ship like the darings
Dilandu said:
Royal Navy example wasn't fully representative. Their version of Ikara was significantly different from Australian one, due to RN insistence that missiles needed to be serviced in sea (RAN used a "sealed round" concept, when malfunctioned missiles were simply detached from control system and left idle till the ship would return to port). Also, RN launcher was specially adapted to North Atlantic conditions, with anti-icing features.
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i thought was the case, so the RN version would be heavier than?
 
Caryina2642 said:
That doesn't seem terrible in terms of increased displacement for bigger ship like the darings
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Hard to say, destroyers are usually more tightly fit than frigates & have more stability problems, due to their length-to-width ratio.

Caryina2642 said:
i thought was the case, so the RN version would be heavier than?
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And more bulkier apparently. The RAN version basically fits into the space from removed forward Limbo mortar (forward in terms of relative placement, they were both on stern of the ship)
 
Dilandu said:
Hard to say, destroyers are usually more tightly fit than frigates & have more stability problems, due to their length-to-width ratio.


And more bulkier apparently. The RAN version basically fits into the space from removed forward Limbo mortar (forward in terms of relative placement, they were both on stern of the ship)
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How is the darings length to width ratio? is a good or bad stability?
So in theory the Ikara could replace the Limbo mortar on the daring class like it did with 1 of the 2 on the Rivers
 
Caryina2642 said:
So in theory the Ikara could replace the Limbo mortar on the daring class like it did with 1 of the 2 on the Rivers
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Okay, I haven't manage to find exact data on RN pentad 21-inch torpedo mount, but the American and Soviet five-tube mounts of comparable age were about 20 tons each. So let's assume 20 tons per mount. The DP mount weight 45 tons each, and the Limbo mortar weighted 35 tons.

Removing from the Daring one pentad tube banks, Limbo mortar and two DP mounts would free about 20+35+45+45=145 tons. I don't have exact data on ammo weight & ammo supply, unfortunately.

So for simplicity let's assume that removal of all but one DP mounts & all torpedo tubes & Limbo would give us about 150 tons.

We could rather safely fit a Mk-22 Tartar GMLS (51 tons) into that allowance. It would left us with circa 100 tons to fit Ikara GMLS system. It seems... possible, but the ammo supply would likely be reduced. If we could agree with 12-15 missiles per ship, it seems to be doable.
 
Dilandu said:
Okay, I haven't manage to find exact data on RN pentad 21-inch torpedo mount, but the American and Soviet five-tube mounts of comparable age were about 20 tons each. So let's assume 20 tons per mount. The DP mount weight 45 tons each, and the Limbo mortar weighted 35 tons.

Removing from the Daring one pentad tube banks, Limbo mortar and two DP mounts would free about 20+35+45+45=145 tons. I don't have exact data on ammo weight & ammo supply, unfortunately.

So for simplicity let's assume that removal of all but one DP mounts & all torpedo tubes & Limbo would give us about 150 tons.

We could rather safely fit a Mk-22 Tartar GMLS (51 tons) into that allowance. It would left us with circa 100 tons to fit Ikara GMLS system. It seems... possible, but the ammo supply would likely be reduced. If we could agree with 12-15 missiles per ship, it seems to be doable.
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That honestly doesn't sound terrible, is that 12 to 15 missiles for both launchers or combined? Cause the Mk 22 had a 16 round magazine and i belived ikara had a 24??? so basically cutting the ikara magazine in half
 
Caryina2642 said:
That honestly doesn't sound terrible, is that 12 to 15 missiles for both launchers or combined? Cause the Mk 22 had a 16 round magazine and i belived ikara had a 24??? so basically cutting the ikara magazine in half
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Its specifically for Ikara, the Mk-22 is with its original 16-round magazine. Basically, refitted Daring would have one 4.5-inch DP, one Mk-22 Tartar GMLS (16 missiles) and one Ikara ASW system (12-15 missiles).

I suspect it would require adding ballst to address upper weight issues, so the displacement would grow & max speed would fell several knots.
 
Dilandu said:
Its specifically for Ikara, the Mk-22 is with its original 16-round magazine. Basically, refitted Daring would have one 4.5-inch DP, one Mk-22 Tartar GMLS (16 missiles) and one Ikara ASW system (12-15 missiles).

I suspect it would require adding ballst to address upper weight issues, so the displacement would grow & max speed would fell several knots.
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Copy.
That sounds like a decent refit for the daring's to receive even if the drop a couple knots in speed. It would make them a lot better and useful escorts for the RAN

Would the Battles get the Mk 22 GMLS or Mk 13 GMLS in a Refit?
 
Caryina2642 said:
Would the Battles get the Mk 22 GMLS or Mk 13 GMLS in a Refit?
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I suspect they got Mk-11, since their refit would be performed in late 1950s - when Mk-22 won't be available yet. The Mk-11 is significantly heavier, about 100 tons loaded.

IMHO, Battles refit would be a dedicated air defense ships. Both 4.5-inch mounts would be removed, and 3-inch duals installed instead.
 
Dilandu said:
I suspect they got Mk-11, since their refit would be performed in late 1950s - when Mk-22 won't be available yet. The Mk-11 is significantly heavier, about 100 tons loaded.

IMHO, Battles refit would be a dedicated air defense ships. Both 4.5-inch mounts would be removed, and 3-inch duals installed instead.
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My thoughts the Hobart late 50's, Battles early 60s so Mk 13?, than the Daring's late 60s
Though i do like the QF 3inch
 
Yep so say Hobart enters refit 1956/57 the Italian cruiser took 4 years so I would guess it take bout the same maybe 5 so Hobart would exit refit between 1960 to 1962
Than the battles go from say 1961, so the mk 13 would be available. How long would the battle refits take?
Than you do the daring with tartar and ikara
 
Caryina2642 said:
Yep so say Hobart enters refit 1956/57 the Italian cruiser took 4 years so I would guess it take bout the same maybe 5 so Hobart would exit refit between 1960 to 1962
Than the battles go from say 1961, so the mk 13 would be available. How long would the battle refits take?
Than you do the daring with tartar and ikara
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So basically the idea:

* Hobart modernized in late 1950s as Terrier-equipped escort for carrier (Mk-4 GMLS);
* two Battle's modernized in early 1960s as Tartar-equipped air defense units (Mk-13 GMLS and replacement of main guns with 3-inch duals)
* Three Daring's modernized in mid-1960s as multi-purpose destroyers (Mk-22 GMLS and Ikara)
 
Dilandu said:
The installation of RIM-24 Tartar Mk-11/Mk-13 GMLS in place of rear 4.5-inch turret is perfectly possible. Not much of problem there (well, except the early Tartar being next to unworkable).

Ikara, on the other hand, would require a lot of under-deck space for her magazine. I rather doubt it would fit into space from Limbo. Most likely, a mid-hull superstructure with launcher on top would need to be erected between destroyer funnels.


Installing Tartar - likely yes, but might require removal of upper 4.5-inch turret to compensate for extra weight.
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Ikara was specifically designed to fit in the envelope of a Limbo, and this is what was done in the River Class DE conversions. I am sure there is a topic on here with diagrams and a video of tests etc.
 
Dilandu said:
So basically the idea:

* Hobart modernized in late 1950s as Terrier-equipped escort for carrier (Mk-4 GMLS);
* two Battle's modernized in early 1960s as Tartar-equipped air defense units (Mk-13 GMLS and replacement of main guns with 3-inch duals)
* Three Daring's modernized in mid-1960s as multi-purpose destroyers (Mk-22 GMLS and Ikara)
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A new build evolved Daring would have been interesting. Hobart also would have been very good candidate for Tartar, in particular as her other intended role was as a training ship.

Stepping outside the topic somewhat, the RAN was apparently quite keen on building new cruisers post-war with evolved Didos being mentioned. A post-war Dido would have made for a very interesting guided missile conversion.
 
Volkodav said:
Hobart also would have been very good candidate for Tartar, in particular as her other intended role was as a training ship.
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Yep, but apparently Hobart refit was considered in 1955-1956. Tartar wasn't even designed then, so it's either Terrier or nothing.

Volkodav said:
Stepping outside the topic somewhat, the RAN was apparently quite keen on building new cruisers post-war with evolved Didos being mentioned. A post-war Dido would have made for a very interesting guided missile conversion.
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Hm? Again, didn't know that!
 
Dilandu said:
So basically the idea:

* Hobart modernized in late 1950s as Terrier-equipped escort for carrier (Mk-4 GMLS);
* two Battle's modernized in early 1960s as Tartar-equipped air defense units (Mk-13 GMLS and replacement of main guns with 3-inch duals)
* Three Daring's modernized in mid-1960s as multi-purpose destroyers (Mk-22 GMLS and Ikara)
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Yep that sounds good
Volkodav said:
A new build evolved Daring would have been interesting. Hobart also would have been very good candidate for Tartar, in particular as her other intended role was as a training ship.

Stepping outside the topic somewhat, the RAN was apparently quite keen on building new cruisers post-war with evolved Didos being mentioned. A post-war Dido would have made for a very interesting guided missile conversion.
Click to expand...
So an evolved daring's built in australia instead of the perths than?
Yeah wasn't the plan originally 6 cruisers post war?
 
I've been thinking if Hobart gets refitted in 56 and takes 4 years so finished in 60 and then say Tobruk goes into refit and takes 2 (optimistic i would think). That would mean in 62 Australia would have a CLG and DDG in time for the west new guinea conflict. Say Australia backs Netherlanders in would the sea venoms, plus the terrier and tartar, plus Netherlands sea hawk be enough to counter Indonesia tu 16s and their anti ship missiles
 

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