• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Pentagon confirms the existence of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force

sublight is back

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
768
Reaction score
52
1597981598651.png

On November 12th 1963 president John F Kennedy sent this memo to the CIA on classified UFO files.
If the UFO's were a security threat and the US government did not know what they were it is certainly not reflected in this document.
It appears JFK wanted the list of CIA created UFO sightings handed over to NASA so they could pretend to be genuinely interested in these supposedly strange and unknown objects. This way the USSR would believe UFO's are real, because NASA acts just like they are real.
 

sublight is back

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
768
Reaction score
52
In the mid 1970's there was a "UFO" invasion of Grenada shortly after Eric Gairy, a Socialist declared independence from Great Britain.
Gairy went to the UN and tried to get them to formally investigate the UFO's. The United Kingdom then spent millions of dollars to quash that initiative.


Now why would the UK Ministry of Defense go to so much trouble to get the UN not to investigate UFO's? Was there something the Ministry of Defense wanted to hide? It sure wasn't aliens.
 
Last edited:

Dynoman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
898
Reaction score
253
The US government and especially the DoD is not interested in aliens from outer space. They are concerned with security and national defense. The AATIP program specifically stated that the effort was two fold in nature:

1. Examine the current threat. "AAV phenomena of foreign derivation, being globally deployed/tested, including CONUS
2. Examine future threat: "Potential terrestrial adversaries achieving significant breakthroughs in the development of game-changing disruptive technologies based on evaluations of AAV phenomena from sensor data or crash/retrieval materials."

When the government has sufficient evidence to investigate a phenomena it can not explain that could pose a risk to security/defense it is in it's best interest to investigate, hence the latest study's sponsor, the US Navy.
 
Last edited:

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Justo Miranda,

I agree with Ed West.

If you could, please post a table of contents.
“Flying Wing and Flying Saucers”

-German Flying Wings: Horten Ho IIa, Ho Va, Ho Vc, Ho VII, Ho VIII, Ho IX V1 and Ho IX V2.

-The Dark Side: German Stealth, RAM materials and antiradar tactics, the Moskitojäger Specification: Horten Ho 229 B-1, the 1000x1000x1000 Schnellbomber Specification: Lippisch P.11, Focke-Wulf 1000x1000x1000, Horten Ho VII Schnell-Kampflugzeug, The Uralbomber Specification: Junkers/DFS EF 130, Horten Projekt 18 (21/2/1945), The Amerikabomber Specification: Horten Ho XVIII B-1, Horten Ho XVIII (23/3/1945).

-“The Bat in the Dark” fictional story written by John Baxter.

-German Flying Wings Bibliography.

-Invisibility: Optical, Infrared and Radar.

-Northrop Flying Wings: N-1M, N-9M, XP-56, XP-79, XP-79B, MX-334/I, MX-334/II, MX-324, XB-35, YB-49 and YRB-49, the Symington Affair.

-The Dark Side: Half Moon Bay incident, the Major Edison K. Walters intelligence report (June 9, 1947), Tupolev Tu-4 copycat, Russian flying wings 1924-1937, the BITch-22 prototype (September 1948), the Chetverikov LK-1 flying wing project (June 4, 1948), the Antonov Project M (July 1948), Tcheranovski tailless jet fighters projects 24, 25, 26 and 110, the Cold War without flying wings, the Russian A-Bomb (August 29, 1949), ELINT sorties over Soviet territory, Spitfire PR.XIX, Meteor PR.10, Canberra PR.3, RB-45, RB-29 and PB4Y2 spy planes, Project Mogul, Project Skyhook, Project Gopher, Project Moby Dick, Project Grandson and Project Genetrix.

-”Stealth by Default” fictional story written by John Baxter.

- Northrop Flying Wings Bibliography.

“Flying Wings or Flying Saucers” fictional story written by John Baxter.

-Flying Saucers.

-German Flying Saucers: Sack AS 1, AS 5, As 6 V.1 and AS 7 project, Messerschmitt P.1079/17 (July 7, 1942), Focke Rochen and Omega-Diskus Projekt.

-The Dark Side: Focke-Wulf Triebflügel, Coanda Aerodina Lenticulara and BMW Projekt Flügelrad.

-
German Flying Saucers Bibliography.

-Russian Flying Saucers: the Shukanov Diskoplan Project.

-Russian Flying Saucers Bibliography.

-American Flying Saucers: Johnson Uni-Plane, Nemeth Parasol, Chance Vought V-173, Chance Vought XF5U-1, Chance Vought “Jet Skimmer” project and “Pye Wacket” lenticular missile.
-American Flying Saucers Bibliography.

-The Darkest Side (on the bench).

-The “Others” (on the bench).

I sincerely hope you do not include any fictional stories.


Regards,
Ed
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Previous US government sponsored UFO research projects include:

Report on Roswell (USAF, 1947)
Project Sign (USAF, 1948)
Project Grudge (USAF, 1949)
Project Blue Book (USAF, 1952-1969)
Brookings Report (NASA, 1960)
Condon Committee (USAF/Univ. Colorado, 1966-1968)
CIA UFO Investigations (CIA, 1970's-1980's)
SETI (NASA, 1976-1993)
Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (USAF, 2007-2012)
Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force (USN, circa 2017)

These projects/programs were funded by various DoD service branches and NASA to investigate the UFO phenomenon, however, the primary thrust of most of these studies were to ascertain whether or not these sightings could be advanced foreign aerospace technologies that may pose a threat to US national security/defense. I didn't correlate these studies to particular sightings, however it may be the case that once the government receives sufficient credible evidence or tracking data sufficient to pursue an investigation it initiates a study. The fear of another Pearl Harbor, Sputnik, or 9/11 is catalyst enough to launch an investigation. However, from what I've read most of the academics involved in these studies did not entertain the belief that UFO's could be of an extraterrestrial origin and they were more inclined to assign these sightings to weather phenomena or aircraft/bird/satellite miss-identification.

Starting in 1947, it should have been obvious that since the saucers were not using beam weapons to destroy anything, or shoot down our aircraft, that they were not a threat then or since. However, various documents released by the USAF and the DoD clearly show that while civilians were handed nonsense explanations, Air Force and other personnel were given strict instructions about what to do and not say regarding any objects sighted. Reports were always regarded with great seriousness. A joint US/Canadian system called CIRVIS was established. The acronym stood for Communications Instructions for Reporting Vital Intelligence Sightings. And that's what it was, VITAL Intelligence. Under the North American Air Defense plan, both the the US and Canada revived wartime civilian watch groups. Reporting centers were set up. It was important that any sighting be reported as rapidly as possible since Russian bombers could not be allowed to get through. Other objects, like flying discs, were taken quite seriously. In the 'memo' by Nathan Twining from 1947, it was clear that the possibility that these were Russian aircraft was considered.

For the public, and the Russians, the US Air Force was prepared to suggest otherwise early on.


The Air Force, and its investigating agency, "Project Bluebook," are aware of Major Keyhoe's conclusion that the the "Flying Saucers" are from another planet. Some of the personnel believe that there may be some strange natural phenomena completely unknown to us, but that if the apparently controlled maneuvers reported by many competent observers are correct, then the only remaining explanation is the interplanetary answer.

Very Truly Yours
(signed)
Albert M. Chop
Air Force Press Desk

Dated 26 January 1953
Reproduced on the back cover dust jacket of the book Flying Saucers from Outer Space by Major Donald E. Keyhoe, U.S. Marine Corps (ret.)
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
The Air Force, and its investigating agency, "Project Bluebook," are aware of Major Keyhoe's conclusion that the the "Flying Saucers" are from another planet. Some of the personnel believe that there may be some strange natural phenomena completely unknown to us, but that if the apparently controlled maneuvers reported by many competent observers are correct, then the only remaining explanation is the interplanetary answer.
We also know a great deal more about pilot perceptual errors than they did during this period.

There was a great case study on the 5 November 1990 reentry of a Proton stage that provoked numerous UFO sightings all
over Europe. Most prominently by two RAF Tornado pilots who took evasive action being convinced they were in
collision with a formation of "two large round objects, each with five blue lights and several other white lights around the rim."
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Project Blue Book (USAF, 1952-1969)
Holy Christ do you guys not read? Project Blue Book was specifically initiated to cover for CIA recon craft.

I 100% distrust the fox telling others about how many chickens were removed from the henhouse at any given time. And how many CIA recon aircraft look like silvery or grey metallic discs when seen by trained observers? I don't slight the work the CIA has done, with some exceptions, but if the cover story is "recon aircraft," I don't buy it.

The observed performance characteristics of UFOs includes high maneuverabiliy, including so-called right angle turns, and intelligent control. The sheer number of reports in the US cannot be explained by every CIA recon aircraft that ever existed. The sun shining off a bit of metal at high altitude does not count as a positive, confirmed sighting. And if that's all it was, what about the current new whitewash threat non-problem that 'needs' to be looked into?
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
The Air Force, and its investigating agency, "Project Bluebook," are aware of Major Keyhoe's conclusion that the the "Flying Saucers" are from another planet. Some of the personnel believe that there may be some strange natural phenomena completely unknown to us, but that if the apparently controlled maneuvers reported by many competent observers are correct, then the only remaining explanation is the interplanetary answer.
We also know a great deal more about pilot perceptual errors than they did during this period.

There was a great case study on the 5 November 1990 reentry of a Proton stage that provoked numerous UFO sightings all
over Europe. Most prominently by two RAF Tornado pilots who took evasive action being convinced they were in
collision with a formation of "two large round objects, each with five blue lights and several other white lights around the rim."

Yes, of course. And that does not include combined ground and radar sightings by trained personnel of the same craft.
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
The Air Force, and its investigating agency, "Project Bluebook," are aware of Major Keyhoe's conclusion that the the "Flying Saucers" are from another planet. Some of the personnel believe that there may be some strange natural phenomena completely unknown to us, but that if the apparently controlled maneuvers reported by many competent observers are correct, then the only remaining explanation is the interplanetary answer.
We also know a great deal more about pilot perceptual errors than they did during this period.

There was a great case study on the 5 November 1990 reentry of a Proton stage that provoked numerous UFO sightings all
over Europe. Most prominently by two RAF Tornado pilots who took evasive action being convinced they were in
collision with a formation of "two large round objects, each with five blue lights and several other white lights around the rim."

Yes, of course. And that does not include combined ground and radar sightings by trained personnel of the same craft.
Radars of the period were also known to have large velocity and height finding errors particularly under the atmospheric
conditions where people are apt to report UFOs.
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
View attachment 639786

On November 12th 1963 president John F Kennedy sent this memo to the CIA on classified UFO files.
If the UFO's were a security threat and the US government did not know what they were it is certainly not reflected in this document.
It appears JFK wanted the list of CIA created UFO sightings handed over to NASA so they could pretend to be genuinely interested in these supposedly strange and unknown objects. This way the USSR would believe UFO's are real, because NASA acts just like they are real.

What is the source of this document? Based on my research, any 'high threat cases' involved secret military installations in the US. If authentic, this may indicate Russian reconnaissance activity over the US.
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
The Twining Memo from 1947 makes it clear that the US had present knowledge to build a similar aircraft. It also includes mention of a rumbling roar and evidence of rocket exhaust. Control could have been automatic and even a nuclear engine is mentioned as a method of propulsion. Based on UFO reports from the period, none of the maneuvers suggest an aircraft that could not be built at the time. And that some other entity "unknown to this command" may have built such an aircraft. The other consideration was Russia.
 
Last edited:

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
The Twining Memo from 1947 makes it clear that the US had present knowledge to build a similar aircraft. It also includes mention of a rumbling roar and evidence of rocket exhaust. Control could have been automatic and even a nuclear engine is mentioned as a method of propulsion. Based on UFO reports from the period, none of the maneuvers suggest an aircraft that could not be built at time. And that some other entity "unknown to this command" may have built such an aircraft. The other consideration was Russia.
In a memo only classified as SECRET. Keep in mind, the Joint Intelligence Committee wasn't informed until 1947 as to the US nuclear weapons
stockpile and then only with oral briefings; they had overestimated the number of bombs in the US inventory by factor of 2.
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
I wasn't referring to bombs. "In May 1946, the United States Army Air Force started the Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft (NEPA) project..." This before the release of the Twining Memo. And civilians did not have access to SECRET documents, nor did Russian spies.
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
I wasn't referring to bombs. "In May 1946, the United States Army Air Force started the Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft (NEPA) project..." This before the release of the Twining Memo. And civilians did not have access to SECRET documents, nor did Russian spies.
Practically anything nuclear-related with military utility was tightly controlled by AEC during this period.
You'll hardly find anything with less than a SECRET, Nuclear information security classification related to NEPA.
 

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,044
Reaction score
1,567
Justo Miranda,

I agree with Ed West.

If you could, please post a table of contents.
“Flying Wing and Flying Saucers”

-German Flying Wings: Horten Ho IIa, Ho Va, Ho Vc, Ho VII, Ho VIII, Ho IX V1 and Ho IX V2.

-The Dark Side: German Stealth, RAM materials and antiradar tactics, the Moskitojäger Specification: Horten Ho 229 B-1, the 1000x1000x1000 Schnellbomber Specification: Lippisch P.11, Focke-Wulf 1000x1000x1000, Horten Ho VII Schnell-Kampflugzeug, The Uralbomber Specification: Junkers/DFS EF 130, Horten Projekt 18 (21/2/1945), The Amerikabomber Specification: Horten Ho XVIII B-1, Horten Ho XVIII (23/3/1945).

-“The Bat in the Dark” fictional story written by John Baxter.

-German Flying Wings Bibliography.

-Invisibility: Optical, Infrared and Radar.

-Northrop Flying Wings: N-1M, N-9M, XP-56, XP-79, XP-79B, MX-334/I, MX-334/II, MX-324, XB-35, YB-49 and YRB-49, the Symington Affair.

-The Dark Side: Half Moon Bay incident, the Major Edison K. Walters intelligence report (June 9, 1947), Tupolev Tu-4 copycat, Russian flying wings 1924-1937, the BITch-22 prototype (September 1948), the Chetverikov LK-1 flying wing project (June 4, 1948), the Antonov Project M (July 1948), Tcheranovski tailless jet fighters projects 24, 25, 26 and 110, the Cold War without flying wings, the Russian A-Bomb (August 29, 1949), ELINT sorties over Soviet territory, Spitfire PR.XIX, Meteor PR.10, Canberra PR.3, RB-45, RB-29 and PB4Y2 spy planes, Project Mogul, Project Skyhook, Project Gopher, Project Moby Dick, Project Grandson and Project Genetrix.

-”Stealth by Default” fictional story written by John Baxter.

- Northrop Flying Wings Bibliography.

“Flying Wings or Flying Saucers” fictional story written by John Baxter.

-Flying Saucers.

-German Flying Saucers: Sack AS 1, AS 5, As 6 V.1 and AS 7 project, Messerschmitt P.1079/17 (July 7, 1942), Focke Rochen and Omega-Diskus Projekt.

-The Dark Side: Focke-Wulf Triebflügel, Coanda Aerodina Lenticulara and BMW Projekt Flügelrad.

-
German Flying Saucers Bibliography.

-Russian Flying Saucers: the Shukanov Diskoplan Project.

-Russian Flying Saucers Bibliography.

-American Flying Saucers: Johnson Uni-Plane, Nemeth Parasol, Chance Vought V-173, Chance Vought XF5U-1, Chance Vought “Jet Skimmer” project and “Pye Wacket” lenticular missile.
-American Flying Saucers Bibliography.

-The Darkest Side (on the bench).

-The “Others” (on the bench).

I sincerely hope you do not include any fictional stories.


Regards,
Ed
No panic, soft stuff only:confused:


THE BAT IN THE DARK



Fictional story written by John Baxter for Reichdreams




"I can't see it. There's nothing showing on my screen." Master Sergeant Tom Burke spoke quietly over the radio telephone to the ground controller. Burke was the radar operator in one of the Northrop P-61B Black Widow night fighters which had been scrambled from Mitchell Field, New York in response to an intermittent radar detection from out over the Atlantic Ocean.

On the ground, the long range surveillance radars of Air Defence Command had detected something unusual. A contact appeared intermittently well out to the east. It showed up only now and then (a total of only five widely spaced returns) and each detection brought it closer to the Atlantic seaboard of the United States of America.

It was a dark and moonless night in the summer of 1945, July 4th to be exact. The war still raged on both sides of continental USA. Burke tried to improve his reception and turned up the gain on his radar set. No good. There was still nothing painting within his range of twenty-one miles. A request to the ground controllers for an update also brought no joy. At a point still some seventy miles from the coast, the unidentified aircraft, if that was what it was, failed to paint again on radar. This wasn't exactly unusual. There were several natural phenomena that could cause this. It could be a flock of birds, it could be a return from moisture in a cloud - spherical raindrops were notorious for reflecting radar energy, it could be 'angels' - spurious echoes caused by ionised pockets of air. However, these didn't seem to apply. There had been sufficient returns to suggest that it might have been an aircraft. It had been moving at great speed. That and it's altitude in excess of 30,000 feet seemed to suggest it wasn't birds. So several night fighters had been scrambled. Just in case! Four Army Air Force P-61Bs were airborne, as were four US Navy aircraft - one Grumman F7F-3N Tigercat and three Chance-Vought F4U-2 Corsairs.

Burke's P-61B was at 26,000 feet, at the northern end of the scrambled night fighters. His pilot, First Lieutenant Grover Stoddard, had wasted no time in climbing to altitude. Now they were patrolling along a line that was thought to cross at right angles, the projected path of the 'unidentified aircraft'.

Fifty miles (eighty kilometres) east of New York, Hauptmann Erik Liegel, in response to his navigator's instruction, eased the big bomber into a gentle right turn. They had earlier sighted the bright lights of their target burning ahead of them. Cruising along at 13,100 metres (42,968 ft) and at around 550 km/h (330 mph), the intention was to fly around Long Island and drop their bomb load on New York from the west. The Horten Ho XVIIIB-1 was the epitome of German bombers. Powered by six Junkers Jumo 109-004H jet engines, this three seat, flying wing bomber had the range to reach the USA from France with a bomb load of up to 4,000 kg (four metric tons) and return. In addition, it possessed certain stealth characteristics which had caused the uncertainty at the Air Defence Command radar detection centre. Manufactured from non-strategic wood and steel, it had wood cladding covered by Tronal, a plastic layer which helped absorb radar energy. The six jet engines were buried within the wing and exhausted above the rear of the aircraft, shielded from ground radar. Finally, the black paint covering the entire aircraft also had energy absorbing capabilities. It all made it extremely difficult to detect the bomber.

This particular Ho XVIIIB-1, or "Red B" had been built in Kahla-Weimar in April. Delivered to KG 30 Adler (Eagle), the crew found the aircraft much to their liking. After three weeks conversion to type, Hauptmann Liegel and his crew were one of six crews selected for the Amerika Angriff (America raid). Three aircraft would strike at New York, Washington and Boston, whilst the other three were held in reserve. Liegel's crew was randomly allocated New York. He slowly increased speed to 650 km/h (400 mph), no need to spend more time than necessary over enemy territory. On Leutnant Hermann Koetz's instruction, he turned left onto a westerly heading again. The change in the aircraft's attitude caused a change in its aspect ratio and sufficient for another radar return to register. As this appeared on the screen some miles north of the other testing returns, it caused some more confusion amongst the radar operators. There was no follow up radar return, leading to some speculation about possible equipment error.

"Red B" passed over Long Island Sound and crossed the Conneticut coastline some twenty miles (thirty kilometres) southwest of Bridgeport. Liegel turned left again, his gentle turn and high speed taking "Red B" in a long arc before straightening up and commencing to slow down for the bombing run. Koetz glanced across to his ground mapping radar screen. The clear distinction between ground and water presented him with a continuous update on his position.

Once again, the change in attitude of "Red B" was detected, fleetingly. Burke and Stoddard, as the closest crew were directed towards the latest detection, now west of Long Island and over New Jersey. Stoddard was also slowly climbing to his maximum ceiling of 32,000 feet. His big fighter was performing sluggishly in the rarefied air. Burke had been given an updated position but still failed to detect anything. Meanwhile, "Red B" rapidly approached the "Initial Point". Koertz was directing Liegel on the bomb run. The bomb bay doors were opened once the airspeed fell below 450 km/h (280 mph). New York was a large target, well lit as if there was no war on.

"Bomb gone", cried Koertz and "Red B" parted company with the brightly painted SC 1000 Hermann bomb (2,205 lb general purpose bomb named after Hermann Goring) that it had carried from the huge Luftwaffe base at Bordeaux-Merignac, France. The armourers had painted the heavy bomb white and then added yellow stripes to its fins. On it's nose in black was a further inscription "Glucklich 4 Juli".
 

greenmartian2017

I really should change my personal text
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
77
Reaction score
41
(maybe they are all intergalatic plane spotters who knows?)
I see it as having a high probability.

Imagine an advanced civilisation with the means to zip through space in a snap of a finger and levitate massive spaceship in complete disregard of gravity.

Those have probably forgotten all about backwardish aerodynamics, Newton laws or the pain of a simple trip over. They might then stare at us simply amazed as were 19th century explorers with early civilisations or as tourists often do in places with no A/C, running water and the presence of horsecars.
I agree with TomcatVIP, imagine if people (even early scholars and scientists) from the 15th thru 18th centuries for example see the 20th and 21st century technology we have developed and produce today like its no big deal, we would be deemed heretics and burned at the stake. I believe advanced interstellar travel would involve the warping space-time with a new plateau of advanced physics. Also, the physics of the future or of an advanced civilization(s) is an evolutionary step we have yet to achieve since we only really understand our evolved physics of where we are at this point in time through our own technological evolution, something to consider, thinking outside the box. Just think, if the modern toilet was seen by people in 800AD they would either kill you or maybe be flushed with envy, not sure about that one....
Just as a point of archaeology, but excavations at Knossos on Crete revealed a sophisticated plumbing system (internal plumbing in the walls of houses) and flushing toilets. Also bath tubs with pull-out plugs. Just like we have, 3000+ years later.

 

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,044
Reaction score
1,567
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

Dating

The imposing stratigraphy of Göbekli Tepe attests to many centuries of activity, beginning at least as early as the Epipaleolithic period. Structures identified with the succeeding period, Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), have been dated to the 10th millennium BCE.[14] Remains of smaller buildings identified as Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) and dating from the 9th millennium BCE have also been unearthed.[5]

A number of radiocarbon dates have been published:[15]

Lab-Number
Context
cal BCE
Ua-19561enclosure C7560–7370
Ua-19562enclosure B8280–7970
Hd-20025Layer III9110–8620
Hd-20036Layer III9130–8800
 

RavenOne

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
272
Reaction score
269
In the mid 1970's there was a "UFO" invasion of Grenada shortly after Eric Gairy, a Socialist declared independence from Great Britain.
Gairy went to the UN and tried to get them to formally investigate the UFO's. The United Kingdom then spent millions of dollars to quash that initiative.


Now why would the UK Ministry of Defense go to so much trouble to get the UN not to investigate UFO's? Was there something the Ministry of Defense wanted to hide? It sure wasn't aliens.
Then a decade later Urgent Fury happened ....

cheers
 

antigravite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
718
Reaction score
65
Previous US government sponsored UFO research projects include:

Report on Roswell (USAF, 1947)
Project Sign (USAF, 1948)
Project Grudge (USAF, 1949)
Project Blue Book (USAF, 1952-1969)
Brookings Report (NASA, 1960)
Condon Committee (USAF/Univ. Colorado, 1966-1968)
CIA UFO Investigations (CIA, 1970's-1980's)
SETI (NASA, 1976-1993)
Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (USAF, 2007-2012)
Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force (USN, circa 2017)

missing from this list are: Project STORK and the 1950s Battelle Memorial Institute contract study.

A.
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Justo,

When will this book be released?
 

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
326
Reaction score
122
(maybe they are all intergalatic plane spotters who knows?)
I see it as having a high probability.

Imagine an advanced civilisation with the means to zip through space in a snap of a finger and levitate massive spaceship in complete disregard of gravity.

Those have probably forgotten all about backwardish aerodynamics, Newton laws or the pain of a simple trip over. They might then stare at us simply amazed as were 19th century explorers with early civilisations or as tourists often do in places with no A/C, running water and the presence of horsecars.
I agree with TomcatVIP, imagine if people (even early scholars and scientists) from the 15th thru 18th centuries for example see the 20th and 21st century technology we have developed and produce today like its no big deal, we would be deemed heretics and burned at the stake. I believe advanced interstellar travel would involve the warping space-time with a new plateau of advanced physics. Also, the physics of the future or of an advanced civilization(s) is an evolutionary step we have yet to achieve since we only really understand our evolved physics of where we are at this point in time through our own technological evolution, something to consider, thinking outside the box. Just think, if the modern toilet was seen by people in 800AD they would either kill you or maybe be flushed with envy, not sure about that one....
As a one-time specialist in medieval European history, I have to disagree. In the evolutionary time scale, the 1st, 10th, 15th, 18th, 20th, and 21st centuries are, combined, less than the blink of an eye. So there is no reason to think that our medieval and ancient ancestors weren't every bit as intelligent and observant as we are today. They used the same logic. They invented the principles that underlie modern scientific observation and analysis. So, were they to be confronted with one of our self-identified technical marvels, I suspect that they would react in one of two familiarly modern ways: try to figure out how we did it or decide that that it is a silly thing to want to do.

I suspect that knowing that something CAN be done and having a good enough reason to do it are at least 80% of technological advance. So if a technical marvel appears to be impossible and, despite all efforts, we can't figure out how it works, then I think the odds are that it isn't what we think it is. We have misinterpreted what we are seeing.

So, yes, when their cows died, some (not all) of our ancestors blamed witches and killed old ladies. But that did not prove that witches exist. Nor did it prove that our ancestors were dumber or more gullible than we are--after all, we live in a 21st century where, in the middle of an epidemic, a sizable minority of the population ignores doctors and scientists, refuses to wear masks for fear of "carbon-monoxide poisoning", and drinks bleach as a cure.
 
Last edited:

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
326
Reaction score
122
Project Blue Book (USAF, 1952-1969)
Holy Christ do you guys not read? Project Blue Book was specifically initiated to cover for CIA recon craft.
Whether or not we take the word of the spooks at face value, US intelligence operations were almost certainly at the heart of the UFO phenomenon.

The crash of a Project Mogul nuclear test-detection balloon at Roswell started the ball rolling. Thereafter, the rise in UFO sighting reports largely tracks the progress of the Grayback, Moby Dick, Mogul, and Genetrix/WS-119L balloon overflight projects. The balloons launched in the largest numbers (516), the Genetrix/WS-119L, were huge and made from Mylar polyethylene, which was at once new, unfamiliar, and highly reflective. They were supposed to circumnavigate the globe undetectably at altitudes up to 114,000 feet, photographing the USSR in the process. Unfortunately, they proved less than reliable, Most flew at 30-40,000 feet, were easily detected by radar, and proved highly visible and very strange-looking to the naked eye.

For the pilots of fast jet fighters who had not been briefed on what they were intercepting, these balloons were extremely disturbing and disorienting targets. US pilots were sent to shoot down errant balloons at low altitude over the US, without being told what they were after, for security reasons. Russians had to intercept at both low and high level, in the latter case, often on the edge of controllability. To the overtaking pilot, balloons drifting at a few knots, at night, seemed to be travelling at impossiblly high speeds and carying out impossible evasive maneuvers.

An interesting aside: the Myasishchev M-55 Geofizika may have originated in a specialist fighter meant to intercept high-flying balloons. An armed, turbocharged An-2 and various rocket-boosted Mig-19 derivatives were also developed for the same role. But ordinary fighters and technical faults in the balloons themselves turned out to be more than effective enough at bringing the balloons down.

See http://ufxufo.org/sturgeon/sturgeon.htm (among many other sights).
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,044
Reaction score
1,567
(maybe they are all intergalatic plane spotters who knows?)
I see it as having a high probability.

Imagine an advanced civilisation with the means to zip through space in a snap of a finger and levitate massive spaceship in complete disregard of gravity.

Those have probably forgotten all about backwardish aerodynamics, Newton laws or the pain of a simple trip over. They might then stare at us simply amazed as were 19th century explorers with early civilisations or as tourists often do in places with no A/C, running water and the presence of horsecars.
I agree with TomcatVIP, imagine if people (even early scholars and scientists) from the 15th thru 18th centuries for example see the 20th and 21st century technology we have developed and produce today like its no big deal, we would be deemed heretics and burned at the stake. I believe advanced interstellar travel would involve the warping space-time with a new plateau of advanced physics. Also, the physics of the future or of an advanced civilization(s) is an evolutionary step we have yet to achieve since we only really understand our evolved physics of where we are at this point in time through our own technological evolution, something to consider, thinking outside the box. Just think, if the modern toilet was seen by people in 800AD they would either kill you or maybe be flushed with envy, not sure about that one....
As a one-time specialist in medieval European history, I have to disagree. In the evolutionary time scale, the 1st, 10th, 15th, 18th, 20th, and 21st centuries are, combined, less than the blink of an eye. So there is no reason to think that our medieval and ancient ancestors weren't every bit as intelligent and observant as we are today. They used the same logic. They invented the principles that underlie modern scientific observation and analysis. So, were they to be confronted with one of our self-identified technical marvels, I suspect that they would react in one of two familiarly modern ways: try to figure out how we did it or decide that that it is a silly thing to want to do.

I suspect that knowing that something CAN be done and having a good enough reason to do it are at least 80% of technological advance. So if a technical marvel appears to be impossible and, despite all efforts, we can't figure out how it works, then I think the odds are that it isn't what we think it is. We have misinterpreted what we are seeing.

So, yes, when their cows died, some (not all) of our ancestors blamed witches and killed old ladies. But that did not prove that witches exist. Nor did it prove that our ancestors were dumber or more gullible than we are--after all, we live in a 21st century where, in the middle of an epidemic, a sizable minority of the population ignores doctors and scientists, refuses to wear masks for fear of "carbon-monoxide poisoning", and drinks bleach as a cure.
Population ingores scientists
 

Attachments

Orionblamblam

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
7,809
Reaction score
964
Website
www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com
The thing that gets me about all this UFO business / nonsense (delete as appropriate...) is why are all these UFOs crashing? Our aeroplanes manage to avoid crashing too regularly so why do hyper-advanced pan galactic civilisations have such reliability issues....? ;)
A quarter century ago I explained to a friend that the whole idea was as ridiculous as a P-51 Mustang shooting down the USS Enterprise. And for a few years that got me thinking, and I had an idea for a short-ish story. Some physics whiz-kid is recruited straight out of college to Area 51, where he is shown the crashed alien spacecraft from Roswell. His studies relate to the FTL drive the Army recovered, so he's set to work trying to reverse engineer it. Eventually the team realizes that such a system can be made with modern tech, but:
1: It will be ruinously expensive, requiring large amounts of extremely rare elements
2: It will have a top speed of something like 1.5 c
3: It will require the equivalent of the entire US power grid to keep functioning
4: Amazingly radioactive

So, some of the team are thrilled: FTL is possible. Our Hero, however, doesn't like it, so he transfers to another department; studying the material the crashed vessel is made of. The various bits are proven to be incredibly tough; so tough as to shrug off all attempts at analysis. Can't melt it with anything short of a nuclear blast, can't drill it, cut it, tear it. But Our Hero wonders why, if the ship was so incredibly tough, it kerploded into bits when it crashed... to do that much damage would have required an H-bomb. Our Hero eventually concludes that the alien spaceship was *planted* here. The aliens saw humans enter the atomic age and decided that we are sufficiently scary as to require being kept out of the Galactic Federation for as long as possible. So rather than contact us and give us the warp drive that can be built in a well equipped home workshop and powered by a Briggs & Stratton, or allowing us to figure that system out for ourselves and then swarm out into the heavens spreading our hijinks all over, they deliberately gave us the *worst* form of hyperdrive ever invented. Overly complex, expensive and power-ravenous, but clearly functional. And clearly what the aliens are using, so it *must* be what works. Keep the monkey-boys busy with the crap-drive, and they'll be tied up in knots for generations.
 
Last edited:

Fluff

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Messages
310
Reaction score
142
The thing that gets me about all this UFO business / nonsense (delete as appropriate...) is why are all these UFOs crashing? Our aeroplanes manage to avoid crashing too regularly so why do hyper-advanced pan galactic civilisations have such reliability issues....? ;)
A quarter century ago I explained to a friend that the whole idea was as ridiculous as a P-51 Mustang shooting down the USS Enterprise. And for a few years that got me thinking, and I had an idea for a short-ish story. Some physics whiz-kid is recruited straight out of college to Area 51, where he is shown the crashed alien spacecraft from Roswell. His studies relate to the FTL drive the Army recovered, so he's set to work trying to reverse engineer it. Eventually the team realizes that such a system can be made with modern tech, but:
1: It will be ruinously expensive, requiring large amounts of extremely rare elements
2: It will have a top speed of something like 1.5 c
3: It will require the equivalent of the entire US power grid to keep functioning
4: Amazingly radioactive

So, some of the team are thrilled: FTL is possible. Our Hero, however, doesn't like it, so he transfers to another department; studying the material the crashed vessel is made of. The various bits are proven to be incredibly tough; so tough as to shrug off all attempts at analysis. Can't melt it with anything short of a nuclear blast, can't drill it, cut it, tear it. But Our Hero wonders why, if the ship was so incredibly tough, it kerploded into bits when it crashed... to do that much damage would have required an H-bomb. Our Hero eventually concludes that the alien spaceship was *planted* here. The aliens saw humans enter the atomic age and decided that we are sufficiently scary as to require being kept out of the Galactic Federation for as long as possible. So rather than contact us and give us the warp drive that can be built in a well equipped home workshop and powered by a Briggs & Stratton, or allowing us to figure that system out for ourselves and then swarm out into the heavens spreading our hijinks all over, they deliberately gave us the *worst* form of hyperdrive ever invented. Overly complex, expensive and power-ravenous, but clearly functional. And clearly what the aliens are using, so it *must* be what works. Keep the monkey-boys busy with the crap-drive, and they'll be tied up in knots for generations.
You sir have a cruel and unusual mind!
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
The thing that gets me about all this UFO business / nonsense (delete as appropriate...) is why are all these UFOs crashing? Our aeroplanes manage to avoid crashing too regularly so why do hyper-advanced pan galactic civilisations have such reliability issues....? ;)
A quarter century ago I explained to a friend that the whole idea was as ridiculous as a P-51 Mustang shooting down the USS Enterprise. And for a few years that got me thinking, and I had an idea for a short-ish story. Some physics whiz-kid is recruited straight out of college to Area 51, where he is shown the crashed alien spacecraft from Roswell. His studies relate to the FTL drive the Army recovered, so he's set to work trying to reverse engineer it. Eventually the team realizes that such a system can be made with modern tech, but:
1: It will be ruinously expensive, requiring large amounts of extremely rare elements
2: It will have a top speed of something like 1.5 c
3: It will require the equivalent of the entire US power grid to keep functioning
4: Amazingly radioactive
4cg3zh.jpg
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Project Blue Book (USAF, 1952-1969)
Holy Christ do you guys not read? Project Blue Book was specifically initiated to cover for CIA recon craft.
Whether or not we take the word of the spooks at face value, US intelligence operations were almost certainly at the heart of the UFO phenomenon.

The crash of a Project Mogul nuclear test-detection balloon at Roswell started the ball rolling. Thereafter, the rise in UFO sighting reports largely tracks the progress of the Grayback, Moby Dick, Mogul, and Genetrix/WS-119L balloon overflight projects. The balloons launched in the largest numbers (516), the Genetrix/WS-119L, were huge and made from Mylar polyethylene, which was at once new, unfamiliar, and highly reflective. They were supposed to circumnavigate the globe undetectably at altitudes up to 114,000 feet, photographing the USSR in the process. Unfortunately, they proved less than reliable, Most flew at 30-40,000 feet, were easily detected by radar, and proved highly visible and very strange-looking to the naked eye.

For the pilots of fast jet fighters who had not been briefed on what they were intercepting, these balloons were extremely disturbing and disorienting targets. US pilots were sent to shoot down errant balloons at low altitude over the US, without being told what they were after, for security reasons. Russians had to intercept at both low and high level, in the latter case, often on the edge of controllability. To the overtaking pilot, balloons drifting at a few knots, at night, seemed to be travelling at impossiblly high speeds and carying out impossible evasive maneuvers.

An interesting aside: the Myasishchev M-55 Geofizika may have originated in a specialist fighter meant to intercept high-flying balloons. An armed, turbocharged An-2 and various rocket-boosted Mig-19 derivatives were also developed for the same role. But ordinary fighters and technical faults in the balloons themselves turned out to be more than effective enough at bringing the balloons down.

See http://ufxufo.org/sturgeon/sturgeon.htm (among many other sights).

Project Mogul started the ball rolling? That is pure speculation. I have seen period photos showing the alleged debris. In June 1947, some reporter informed the public about "flying saucers."

In July 1947, an alleged security breach occurs. Associated Press, 9 July 1947. "Roswell, N. M.--The army air forces here today announced a flying disk had been found on a ranch near Roswell and is in army possession."

A photo of Major Jesse Marcel, the Roswell AAF base intelligence officer, showed him in an office with pieces of tin foil debris from a balloon, he claimed.

As far as balloons, I am certain that trained USAF pilots looking for Russian bombers would have done two things: A) Made a mandatory report since a UFO was a UFO. B) Not talked about it as they were required to do under espionage laws. The only remaining question would have been "Do we shoot down the large round things?"
Disoriented pilots were highly undesirable at this point. Any 'strange looking' objects had to have a (fake) explanation tied to them. "Disturbed" pilots are not desirable either. Anything about perceived speed and maneuverability is pure speculation. Radar, including on-board fighter radar, would have made distinguishing between a flying ball and a technological breakthrough much more certain, especially in terms of speed and maneuverability.

I think part of the problem here is the idea that the Russians would not attempt something similar since, at the time, only the US had atomic bombs and their leadership had a strong dislike and distrust for the US. This was the case during the war.

All evidence to date shows that US intelligence closely monitored all UFO activity but did nothing about it. And certainly gave the public, and the Russians, nothing to go on. Their own personnel were treated differently.
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
Radar, including on-board fighter radar, would have made distinguishing between a flying ball and a technological breakthrough much more certain, especially in terms of speed and maneuverability.
On-board fighter radar was incredibly uncommon during this period. And the Japanese balloons had proven very difficult to detect.
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Radar, including on-board fighter radar, would have made distinguishing between a flying ball and a technological breakthrough much more certain, especially in terms of speed and maneuverability.
On-board fighter radar was incredibly uncommon during this period. And the Japanese balloons had proven very difficult to detect.

I know. However, ground radar would have been some use. As nationwide radar coverage increased, the false claim that ballooons were the driver for UFO reports as time passed loses all credibility. For Russia, and the US, having unwanted radar targets in the air meant they had to go.
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
Radar, including on-board fighter radar, would have made distinguishing between a flying ball and a technological breakthrough much more certain, especially in terms of speed and maneuverability.
On-board fighter radar was incredibly uncommon during this period. And the Japanese balloons had proven very difficult to detect.

I know. However, ground radar would have been some use. As nationwide radar coverage increased, the false claim that ballooons were the driver for UFO reports as time passed loses all credibility. For Russia, and the US, having unwanted radar targets in the air meant they had to go.
You are talking about mostly the same ground-based radars that struggled to detect the Japanese Balloons.
Most of the common radars still in use in the period would have had detection/track against these balloons
out to maybe 10 - 15 miles. The giant, fixed AN/CPS-1 might have done 50 miles.
 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
You're still missing the point. Why have any balloons in the air over the US? Also, as air traffic increased, including airborne radars, such nuisance balloons are not what you keep sending jet fighters up for. It was Russian bombers. The first being a copy of the B-29, of which the Russians had acquired four copies during the war. Briefings must have been a little humorous for those in the know.

"Gentlemen. The Russian bombers look like our B-29, except they have this red star..."

I think I would have been a tad confused if I was a pilot sitting there. And more confused after seeing a few drawings of what was a B-29 in Russian markings.
 

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,044
Reaction score
1,567
The thing that gets me about all this UFO business / nonsense (delete as appropriate...) is why are all these UFOs crashing? Our aeroplanes manage to avoid crashing too regularly so why do hyper-advanced pan galactic civilisations have such reliability issues....? ;)
A quarter century ago I explained to a friend that the whole idea was as ridiculous as a P-51 Mustang shooting down the USS Enterprise. And for a few years that got me thinking, and I had an idea for a short-ish story. Some physics whiz-kid is recruited straight out of college to Area 51, where he is shown the crashed alien spacecraft from Roswell. His studies relate to the FTL drive the Army recovered, so he's set to work trying to reverse engineer it. Eventually the team realizes that such a system can be made with modern tech, but:
1: It will be ruinously expensive, requiring large amounts of extremely rare elements
2: It will have a top speed of something like 1.5 c
3: It will require the equivalent of the entire US power grid to keep functioning
4: Amazingly radioactive

So, some of the team are thrilled: FTL is possible. Our Hero, however, doesn't like it, so he transfers to another department; studying the material the crashed vessel is made of. The various bits are proven to be incredibly tough; so tough as to shrug off all attempts at analysis. Can't melt it with anything short of a nuclear blast, can't drill it, cut it, tear it. But Our Hero wonders why, if the ship was so incredibly tough, it kerploded into bits when it crashed... to do that much damage would have required an H-bomb. Our Hero eventually concludes that the alien spaceship was *planted* here. The aliens saw humans enter the atomic age and decided that we are sufficiently scary as to require being kept out of the Galactic Federation for as long as possible. So rather than contact us and give us the warp drive that can be built in a well equipped home workshop and powered by a Briggs & Stratton, or allowing us to figure that system out for ourselves and then swarm out into the heavens spreading our hijinks all over, they deliberately gave us the *worst* form of hyperdrive ever invented. Overly complex, expensive and power-ravenous, but clearly functional. And clearly what the aliens are using, so it *must* be what works. Keep the monkey-boys busy with the crap-drive, and they'll be tied up in knots for generations.
The whole power of the Roman Empire would have been unable to replicate a humble Fiat 500:
-Precision mechanics, special alloys, electric system, battery, lamps, radio, plastic isolants, fuel fracking.
 

Attachments

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
1,046
Reaction score
229
Read up on the history of the first few internal combustion engines. The steam engine was applied to civilian vehicles. The Roman Empire would have understood that. Then when gasoline was used, they would have understood the progression. That "stuff' oozing out of the ground here and there could be refined and used for fuel. Not a great leap.
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,766
Reaction score
265
You're still missing the point. Why have any balloons in the air over the US? Also, as air traffic increased, including airborne radars, such nuisance balloons are not what you keep sending jet fighters up for. It was Russian bombers. The first being a copy of the B-29, of which the Russians had acquired four copies during the war. Briefings must have been a little humorous for those in the know.

"Gentlemen. The Russian bombers look like our B-29, except they have this red star..."

I think I would have been a tad confused if I was a pilot sitting there. And more confused after seeing a few drawings of what was a B-29 in Russian markings.
You're still missing a grasp on the technical issues that make balloons difficult to detect and intercept and
what induced the US to use them for recon, in various forms, against the USSR through the 1950's.

Mogul was Top Secret.

I can't find any evidence that US intelligence knew about the Tu-4 before its August 1947 public debut.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,252
Reaction score
1,272
You're still missing the point. Why have any balloons in the air over the US? Also, as air traffic increased, including airborne radars, such nuisance balloons are not what you keep sending jet fighters up for. It was Russian bombers. The first being a copy of the B-29, of which the Russians had acquired four copies during the war. Briefings must have been a little humorous for those in the know.

"Gentlemen. The Russian bombers look like our B-29, except they have this red star..."

I think I would have been a tad confused if I was a pilot sitting there. And more confused after seeing a few drawings of what was a B-29 in Russian markings.
You're still missing a grasp on the technical issues that make balloons difficult to detect and intercept and
what induced the US to use them for recon, in various forms, against the USSR through the 1950's.

Mogul was Top Secret.

I can't find any evidence that US intelligence knew about the Tu-4 before its August 1947 public debut.

Nike Hercules was designed to be able to hit balloons as well. There weren't any airplanes flying at 150,000 feet but they did test Hercules against balloons there.

 
Top