OK, serious topic here relating to dangerous chemicals and their management.

Foo Fighter

Foo Fighter

Cum adolescunt hominem verum esse volo.
Senior Member
Joined
19 July 2016
Messages
4,672
Reaction score
4,090
OK, we have been dealing with a landlord who has no idea, not a clue.

We have asbestos tiles in the floors of out flats/apartments. This is beneath carpet and laminate flooring.

There is a couple moving out and they have been instructed to remove laminate and carpeting while KNOWING the tiles are damaged and that asbestos WILL be exposed. As will the tenants removing the covering.

Waiting for local police, I reckon attempted manslaughter at the very least.

The local environmental health team are proceeding but are also being overtaken by the glaciers in the next ice age.
 
I know about those, they came here for two of the twenty flats. When I came here in 2016 there were smashed up tiles and lots of dust on the floors, they denied it was asbestos but later agreed it IS asbestos.
The compliance officer has repeated that he knows the tiles and dust are asbestos but insists carpets and laminate be removed by the tenant. This will expose the asbestos contaminated dust and asbestos tiles.

I spoke to the local police, they are not interested. Seems that companies can do anything they like while we citizens rot.

I think I'm done with this.

What is the point?
 
Foo Fighter said:
OK, we have been dealing with a landlord who has no idea, not a clue.

We have asbestos tiles in the floors of out flats/apartments. This is beneath carpet and laminate flooring.

There is a couple moving out and they have been instructed to remove laminate and carpeting while KNOWING the tiles are damaged and that asbestos WILL be exposed. As will the tenants removing the covering.

Waiting for local police, I reckon attempted manslaughter at the very least.

The local environmental health team are proceeding but are also being overtaken by the glaciers in the next ice age.
Click to expand...

If your Environmental Health Team are being glacial there are a couple of options off the top of my head...(this is if you're in the UK, apologies if you're not)

1) - Get hold of your local Councillor...they're usually pretty good and will be on the EH team like a rash...failing that a call to your local MP's Office will also get things going...
2) - Ask to see the Landlords insurance....they have to provide within 21 days by law (and usually have provided as part of the tenants agreement)....that will give the name of the Insurer, covered amount and covered risks....once received..... call that insurance company and explain what the landlord is up to...... light blue touchpaper and retreat....guarantee they will get a call very quickly from the insurers...usually threatening to immediately withdraw cover...its very hard for a landlord to get new cover if the previous insurer has withdrawn/refused cover....and they know that. they cannot rent any properties legally without landlords insurance...
3) - Tell the couple NOT to remove the floor coverings. it isn't worth their health/lives....Worst thing that can happen is that the Landlord will try and hold onto their security deposit. But...by law all deposits have to be held in escrow under a deposit protection scheme. Those schemes will take a very dim view of a landlord asking someone to break the law (which they are under The Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012). Tell them to advise the Landlord in writing that this is the course of action they are taking and why.....they will 100% get their deposit back...

BUT....they need to check their tenancy agreement carefully....there are some circumstances where they could actually be responsible...they need to read this: https://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/duty/check.htm
and their tenancy agreement alongside it.
 
Last edited:
I am in England, the landlord is haig housing trust.

They have a mission statement to provide cheap housing for the veteran community.

My rent has just gone up from £139.82 to £151.95 per week, in that is the payment for cleaning common areas which has never happened.

A whole snafu with new windows which are worse than the old windows. The gaffer for the roof teams (Don't ask, too long a story) has stated the window fitment is the worst he has seen. No sealant between the windows and the brickwork. The chimneys are supposed to be capped but birds frequently fall in. flat next to mine? Four new kitchens complete in eight years. New boiler next door. So well overseen that it took three and a half months after the current tenant moved in to realise the gas supply had not been connected.

My argument with the police is that asbestos is a known killer, manslaughter at least but frankly the CNGAFF, is their watchwords.

Just so the rent is in a scale, my flat is six steps from the front door on the extreme right to the kettle on the extreme left.

Thanks for the suggestions folks, I will try those later on this morning.

One part of my life with PTSD and Gulf War Syndrome is hypersensitivity to adrenaline. The two year old on twenty bags of sweets times about a thousand. Right now it feels like there are ants crawling on the surface of my brain.

Yes I so do. No. It's in the cupboard under the sink. Well, it was this morning....... No, that was yesterday morning, or last Tuesday.

Where is Slarty Blarfast when I need the guy?
 
Foo Fighter said:
OK, we have been dealing with a landlord who has no idea, not a clue.

We have asbestos tiles in the floors of out flats/apartments. This is beneath carpet and laminate flooring.

There is a couple moving out and they have been instructed to remove laminate and carpeting while KNOWING the tiles are damaged and that asbestos WILL be exposed. As will the tenants removing the covering.

Waiting for local police, I reckon attempted manslaughter at the very least.

The local environmental health team are proceeding but are also being overtaken by the glaciers in the next ice age.
Click to expand...
Asbestos is only dangerous if it's "friable." That is, it becomes airborne particles. Removal of asbestos laminate tiles should be done by a professional company because it raises a lot of dust in the process. If you could lift the tiles intact, or nearly so, it's not so bad.

I got certified to do basic removal a while back--the requirements are almost stupidly easy at the lower levels of this--so I could legally remove asbestos sheathed wiring, being an electrician / electrical contractor. My guys wear a dust mask, gloves, and Tyvek suits (erring on the side of caution here), and cut the wiring into chunks, no pulling through holes or strapping, and it gets put in a double heavy-duty plastic trash bag. My intent is to not get it airborne. So long as that happens, it's fine and not a danger.

The problem where I live is that one or more of the "questionably legal" workers on one of the other crews will inevitably grab all of it as they want the copper or aluminum in the wire. I tell them, "No touqes! Pellego! (Don't touch that, Dangerous!) but they never listen...

Asbestos is most dangerous as blown in insulation.

cellulose-insulation.jpg


That stuff is like instant cancer. The floor tiles are not nearly so bad.

But, no, the landlord shouldn't be telling them to remove anything.
 
Foo Fighter said:
I am in England, the landlord is haig housing trust.

They have a mission statement to provide cheap housing for the veteran community.

My rent has just gone up from £139.82 to £151.95 per week, in that is the payment for cleaning common areas which has never happened.

A whole snafu with new windows which are worse than the old windows. The gaffer for the roof teams (Don't ask, too long a story) has stated the window fitment is the worst he has seen. No sealant between the windows and the brickwork. The chimneys are supposed to be capped but birds frequently fall in. flat next to mine? Four new kitchens complete in eight years. New boiler next door. So well overseen that it took three and a half months after the current tenant moved in to realise the gas supply had not been connected.

My argument with the police is that asbestos is a known killer, manslaughter at least but frankly the CNGAFF, is their watchwords.

Just so the rent is in a scale, my flat is six steps from the front door on the extreme right to the kettle on the extreme left.

Thanks for the suggestions folks, I will try those later on this morning.

One part of my life with PTSD and Gulf War Syndrome is hypersensitivity to adrenaline. The two year old on twenty bags of sweets times about a thousand. Right now it feels like there are ants crawling on the surface of my brain.

Yes I so do. No. It's in the cupboard under the sink. Well, it was this morning....... No, that was yesterday morning, or last Tuesday.

Where is Slarty Blarfast when I need the guy?
Click to expand...
Hey, I've seen my share of shit repairs and such on apartments. I try to do everything to code but often the owner wants it cheap and quick regardless of that. Property management companies are the worst for that. They want it fixed and then blame the contractor when it isn't done right after they were the ones calling for a patch job instead of fixing it correctly.

They tell you to "get it working" and then bitch when the bill comes. I don't know all the ins and outs about how things are done in the UK, but I am familiar with IEEE / IET code. I really hate the UK standards. I think they're unsafe on the whole.

Anyway, that aside, I don't know fully what's involved in getting permitting and inspections there. If it's like the US, the owners want to bypass government bullshit because of the cost and just want it done on the sly. I can tell you I get bitched at regularly for opening walls and such to make proper fixes here.

That's the only trade I do on the whole. I'll fix drywall or patch a plaster over block wall if asked to but won't if that isn't on the job order. It's rare to find a landlord or property management company willing to do things right.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Ok, so not US EPA.

What's the UK equivalent? Because there's major health&safety laws around asbestos for really good reasons.
Click to expand...
Initially, Health and Safety Executive. Apparently this is devolved to the local environmental protection teams in council offices. This much I have discovered. Online searches for the UK still point at the HSE.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Initially, Health and Safety Executive. Apparently this is devolved to the local environmental protection teams in council offices. This much I have discovered. Online searches for the UK still point at the HSE.
Click to expand...
Worth an "annoying letter" or three.

Also, do you know which company insures the landlord? Because I'm pretty sure they will have opinions about having to pay for asbestos exposure claims.
 
Well, tried the environmental health folk today, "I can send you another form in the post".

Which became, "It's not our job, you need to speak to the private landlords department, I'll put you through. On hold for 24 minutes nothing doing. Escape and evasion is the order of today and every day apparently.

Council CEO is unobtanium, message and held for 18 minutes before again, the line 'drops'.

I even went to nhs 111 which is supposed to be able to give advice. "What is the name of the casualty"? "I cannot proceed unless I can carry out an assessment". In other words, they are watching a screen for instructions and cannot cope with an unscripted conversation. No wonder the notional wealth service is so manured up.

Eventually got something solid from the environmental-ist. "If you can remover the carpet and laminate without disturbing the tiles/dust/asbestos they can go ahead but ask for the landlords risk assessment".

I do not think he has ever laid a carpet or laminate in his bored days. Very basically put, ANYTHING you do to remove carpet or laminate over asbestos, WILL disturb the asbestos tiles/dust/asbestos underneath.

I have a growing distrust of local and national officials, I wonder why that is?

On a score of one to ten I give them two. One on each hand.
 
Foo Fighter said:
I even went to nhs 111 which is supposed to be able to give advice.
Click to expand...

To be fair to NHS 111 that isn't really their area of expertise...nor can the Police help. No crime has been committed.

Get on to your local Councillor....not the CEO of the Council, very different role and not usually public facing. Coucillors have lots of contacts within councils, an email from them to a Dept. will get a response sharpish...
 
Something that happens here in the US is people assuming that all old "lino" tiles contain
asbestos, they don't. Classic linoleum tile was used prior to and after the introduction of
asbestos tile, linoleum is basically linseed oil, pine resin, powdered cork, sawdust, mineral
fillers like calcium carbonate and pigments. It's still made and realistically, using current parlance,
can be considered a "green floor covering" made with renewable resources.
;)
 
Hi,

Foo Fighter said:
Very basically put, ANYTHING you do to remove carpet or laminate over asbestos, WILL disturb the asbestos tiles/dust/asbestos underneath.
Click to expand...

Have you tried contacting the tenants who are moving out? If they're made aware of the dangers, maybe they'll not even want to remove the laminate DYI style ... and they might not be willing to pay for spacesuit-wearing professionals to do it safely, either.

The question whether the landlord can actually make the tenants responsible for the disposal of asbestos might be interesting too, but that looks like lawyer territory to me.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
timmymagic said:
To be fair to NHS 111 that isn't really their area of expertise...nor can the Police help. No crime has been committed.
Click to expand...
At least in the US, disturbing asbestos absolutely is a crime. I'd assume that the UK has similar laws on the books.



timmymagic said:
Get on to your local Councillor....not the CEO of the Council, very different role and not usually public facing. Coucillors have lots of contacts within councils, an email from them to a Dept. will get a response sharpish...
Click to expand...
Yes, your local politician is an option.



GTX said:
If you wanted to try an alternative approach, you could contact some local media (TV or similar) and get them out. Getting public attention of things like this can have a way of shaming parties to act...
Click to expand...
Trial by media is definitely an option.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Well, tried the environmental health folk today, "I can send you another form in the post".

Which became, "It's not our job, you need to speak to the private landlords department, I'll put you through. On hold for 24 minutes nothing doing. Escape and evasion is the order of today and every day apparently.

Council CEO is unobtanium, message and held for 18 minutes before again, the line 'drops'.

I even went to nhs 111 which is supposed to be able to give advice. "What is the name of the casualty"? "I cannot proceed unless I can carry out an assessment". In other words, they are watching a screen for instructions and cannot cope with an unscripted conversation. No wonder the notional wealth service is so manured up.

Eventually got something solid from the environmental-ist. "If you can remover the carpet and laminate without disturbing the tiles/dust/asbestos they can go ahead but ask for the landlords risk assessment".

I do not think he has ever laid a carpet or laminate in his bored days. Very basically put, ANYTHING you do to remove carpet or laminate over asbestos, WILL disturb the asbestos tiles/dust/asbestos underneath.

I have a growing distrust of local and national officials, I wonder why that is?

On a score of one to ten I give them two. One on each hand.
Click to expand...
Well, there is a way around it depending on what the substrate under the tile is. If the tile is laid on concrete you could lay down about 5 to 12mm of water and do the removal. That pretty much ends the friable situation. On the other hand, if you are on say, the third floor of an apartment building this could be very problematic...

Oh, if you do that still make very sure to shower off without scrubbing and to hand wash or toss out any clothes you were wearing. All of that isn't the fully approved method for removal, but it will work because the objective is to NOT breathe that $h!+ in.

Also, sealing the tile is an option in many cases. This involves doing something like laying down a coating of epoxy or the like over it to form an impermeable barrier. With stuff like insulation on pipes, you spray on a water-Elmer's glue mix and let it harden to prevent raising dust for example. So long as it doesn't get airborne or spread everywhere and later gets airborne, it's not a significant health hazard. The safety nuts go overboard with the danger here. DO NOT GET IT AIRBORNE AND BREATHE IT! That's what you want to avoid.
 
Last edited:
Scott Kenny said:
At least in the US, disturbing asbestos absolutely is a crime. I'd assume that the UK has similar laws on the books.
Click to expand...

In short, its not that simple. We have extensive regulations around Asbestos. There are duties around Asbestos, but they are dependent on circumstances. Most landlords would usually not mess around with asbestos as the insurance/legal/reputational implications are that unpleasant that its easier just to get it dealt with.

T. A. Gardner said:
Well, there is a way around it depending on what the substrate under the tile is. If the tile is laid on concrete you could lay down about 5 to 12mm of water and do the removal. That pretty much ends the friable situation. On the other hand, if you are on say, the third floor of an apartment building this could be very problematic...

Oh, if you do that still make very sure to shower off without scrubbing and to hand wash or toss out any clothes you were wearing. All of that isn't the fully approved method for removal, but it will work because the objective is to NOT breathe that $h!+ in.

Also, sealing the tile is an option in many cases. This involves doing something like laying down a coating of epoxy or the like over it to form an impermeable barrier. With stuff like insulation on pipes, you spray on a water-Elmer's glue mix and let it harden to prevent raising dust for example. So long as it doesn't get airborne or spread everywhere and later gets airborne, it's not a significant health hazard. The safety nuts go overboard with the danger here. DO NOT GET IT AIRBORNE AND BREATHE IT! That's what you want to avoid.
Click to expand...

Thats all true. But its easier and safer just to say that if you encounter asbestos under any circumstances get the professionals in....its not worth a painful, lingering death to save a couple of grand...or lose a rental deposit.

jcf said:
Something that happens here in the US is people assuming that all old "lino" tiles contain
asbestos, they don't. Classic linoleum tile was used prior to and after the introduction of
asbestos tile, linoleum is basically linseed oil, pine resin, powdered cork, sawdust, mineral
fillers like calcium carbonate and pigments. It's still made and realistically, using current parlance,
can be considered a "green floor covering" made with renewable resources.
Click to expand...

In the UK they used Asbestos everywhere....its always safer just to assume that its asbestos until a professional has at the very least tested it...
 
I mean, the best answer is to get it in writing from the idiot Compliance Officer that he wants an untrained, unlicensed, and unequipped individual ( @Foo Fighter ) to expose asbestos and create asbestos dust.

And then you sue his ass off for all the violations that encompasses. Both him personally and his employer.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I mean, the best answer is to get it in writing from the idiot Compliance Officer that he wants an untrained, unlicensed, and unequipped individual ( @Foo Fighter ) to expose asbestos and create asbestos dust.

And then you sue his ass off for all the violations that encompasses. Both him personally and his employer.
Click to expand...

In the UK you don't have to be licenced to remove asbestos...or trained. And in terms of equipment its at your own risk. Disposal of asbestos is strictly regulated for everyone though...

But...in practice its one of those things that is always carried out by professionals when anyone sane is involved...

In some aspects of UK Law there are still elements of the old libertarian (UK libertarian not US) laissez faire ways....for example a gas boiler (or furnace in the US) can be installed by absolutely anyone. Everyone thinks that it needs to be a Gas Engineer who is registered on the Gas Safe Register (previously called CORGI), and if you read their documentation that backs it up. But the legislation actually states..."No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."....the legislation then goes on to mention Employers and Employees...and Self Employed. But....if you want to install your own boiler you're absolutely fine to do so....the legislation doesn't actually define what competency in terms of a gas boiler installation is for someone doing it themselves for themselves....

Now of course no-one untrained should be stupid enough to do so, or certainly make the final connection to the supply...and there are other implications to doing so, if you try and sell your house, or rent it, in the near future you will have to get a full gas safety check from a certified gas engineer to prove that the installation is safe...and your insurance company may also be displeased..if they find out...but its legal.
 
jcf said:
Something that happens here in the US is people assuming that all old "lino" tiles contain
asbestos, they don't. Classic linoleum tile was used prior to and after the introduction of
asbestos tile, linoleum is basically linseed oil, pine resin, powdered cork, sawdust, mineral
fillers like calcium carbonate and pigments. It's still made and realistically, using current parlance,
can be considered a "green floor covering" made with renewable resources.
;)
Click to expand...
They have been accepted as asbestos by the landlord. They fully comprehend the smashed up condition of the tiles and that there is contaminated dust and adhesive under the floor covering put down by tenants.
 
jcf said:
Something that happens here in the US is people assuming that all old "lino" tiles contain
asbestos, they don't. Classic linoleum tile was used prior to and after the introduction of
asbestos tile, linoleum is basically linseed oil, pine resin, powdered cork, sawdust, mineral
fillers like calcium carbonate and pigments. It's still made and realistically, using current parlance,
can be considered a "green floor covering" made with renewable resources.
;)
Click to expand...

I had proper sheet linoleum put in when I did a kitchen reno last year. It's an amazing floor so far. Very comfortable under foot and easy to clean. And not even very expensive. I'm amazed it's still such a niche product in homes (much more common in commercial applications).
 
timmymagic said:
In the UK you don't have to be licenced to remove asbestos...or trained. And in terms of equipment its at your own risk. Disposal of asbestos is strictly regulated for everyone though...

But...in practice its one of those things that is always carried out by professionals when anyone sane is involved...

In some aspects of UK Law there are still elements of the old libertarian (UK libertarian not US) laissez faire ways....for example a gas boiler (or furnace in the US) can be installed by absolutely anyone. Everyone thinks that it needs to be a Gas Engineer who is registered on the Gas Safe Register (previously called CORGI), and if you read their documentation that backs it up. But the legislation actually states..."No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."....the legislation then goes on to mention Employers and Employees...and Self Employed. But....if you want to install your own boiler you're absolutely fine to do so....the legislation doesn't actually define what competency in terms of a gas boiler installation is for someone doing it themselves for themselves....

Now of course no-one untrained should be stupid enough to do so, or certainly make the final connection to the supply...and there are other implications to doing so, if you try and sell your house, or rent it, in the near future you will have to get a full gas safety check from a certified gas engineer to prove that the installation is safe...and your insurance company may also be displeased..if they find out...but its legal.
Click to expand...
How about forcing someone by threat of legal action to do something they believe is unsafe? The actual quote from environ mental services is "It is OK to expose the asbestos if it is possible to remove the covering material without disturbing the tiles or dust".

Considering carpet stretchers and nails through them INTO the tiles below to fit carpet, how can it be possible?
Scott Kenny said:
I mean, the best answer is to get it in writing from the idiot Compliance Officer that he wants an untrained, unlicensed, and unequipped individual ( @Foo Fighter ) to expose asbestos and create asbestos dust.

And then you sue his ass off for all the violations that encompasses. Both him personally and his employer.
Click to expand...
I have requested this from haig. No response yet and I expect this to be ignored as everything else is.
 
timmymagic said:
In the UK you don't have to be licenced to remove asbestos...or trained. And in terms of equipment its at your own risk. Disposal of asbestos is strictly regulated for everyone though...

But...in practice its one of those things that is always carried out by professionals when anyone sane is involved...

In some aspects of UK Law there are still elements of the old libertarian (UK libertarian not US) laissez faire ways....for example a gas boiler (or furnace in the US) can be installed by absolutely anyone. Everyone thinks that it needs to be a Gas Engineer who is registered on the Gas Safe Register (previously called CORGI), and if you read their documentation that backs it up. But the legislation actually states..."No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."....the legislation then goes on to mention Employers and Employees...and Self Employed. But....if you want to install your own boiler you're absolutely fine to do so....the legislation doesn't actually define what competency in terms of a gas boiler installation is for someone doing it themselves for themselves....

Now of course no-one untrained should be stupid enough to do so, or certainly make the final connection to the supply...and there are other implications to doing so, if you try and sell your house, or rent it, in the near future you will have to get a full gas safety check from a certified gas engineer to prove that the installation is safe...and your insurance company may also be displeased..if they find out...but its legal.
Click to expand...
Well, given that these likely cost around £5, and you can get it Home Depot or the like, I'd say start with this and find out for sure.

PRO-LAB-Asbestos-Test-Kit_5b122b0b-7900-4525-a7a7-4c32be5592c1.0fd24b8b81c74684db91a7a1084094f7.jpeg

Not as good as the professional stuff, but it'll at least give you an idea what you have for starters.

But yea, hiring pros is best... If you can afford them.
 
F it.

Trial by media.

Have as much evidence as you can get, including that letter that says the landlord knows it's asbestos tile. Add the letter that says you are expected to remove it. Note taht you're not licensed etc to dispose of that tile, and you sure as hell will not live in a place with exposed asbestos.
 
Foo Fighter said:
I spoke to the local police, they are not interested. Seems that companies can do anything they like while we citizens rot.
Click to expand...
GTX said:
If you wanted to try an alternative approach, you could contact some local media (TV or similar) and get them out. Getting public attention of things like this can have a way of shaming parties to act...
Click to expand...

I'd do what GTX suggested, alert and get the local press (Both printed and online) along with your local TV-station involved, there's nothing like the glare of negative publicity to get prompt action taken.
 
jcf said:
Something that happens here in the US is people assuming that all old "lino" tiles contain
asbestos, they don't. Classic linoleum tile was used prior to and after the introduction of
asbestos tile, linoleum is basically linseed oil, pine resin, powdered cork, sawdust, mineral
fillers like calcium carbonate and pigments. It's still made and realistically, using current parlance,
can be considered a "green floor covering" made with renewable resources.
;)
Click to expand...
Back in the sixties we had lino in the main hall, dinging room, kitchen and scullery. No bathroom until the seventies (71). I have no problem with it but I think upwardly mobile was the watchword for a lot of people. My mother was almost distraught seeing my home with laminate, "You've GOT to have carpet and wallpaper"! She went on for so long I ended up saying, "Make me".

Underfloor heating a "Roman" thing, what goes around and many new, efficient homes have the current style of underfloor heating. We had a so called "Warm air" system when we moved to Roehampton in 71, a storage heater which was basically a pile of pricks in a steel shell with a fan to blow ?warm air? into the living room. I suppose the next flooring boom will be something readily available, ecologically friendly and easily produced. transported. Reconstituted flax? Bamboo? Who nose?
 
TomS said:
I had proper sheet linoleum put in when I did a kitchen reno last year. It's an amazing floor so far. Very comfortable under foot and easy to clean. And not even very expensive. I'm amazed it's still such a niche product in homes (much more common in commercial applications).
Click to expand...
Linoleum had a well-deserved reputation for being inflammable.
 
Back
Top Bottom