OceanGate Expeditions Titan DSV loss

Oh, hell.

Lord God, our power evermore,
Whose arm doth reach the ocean floor,
Dive with our men beneath the sea,
Traverse the depths protectively.
O hear us when we pray, and keep
Them safe from peril in the deep.
 
Oh yeah. This seemed like a spectacular idea.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670931677013524487
View: https://twitter.com/FnpMarieOH/status/1670931677013524487


It looked like it was the "Salvage 1" of submarines.

Full story:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o

FpBddYRXoAAp1MC.jpg
 
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At 250k a pop, you’d think they’d spring for some seats, but I guess all that money went towards slick backlighting for the one button.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Why get something bespoke made that you can't easily replace and cost an arm and a leg, when you can use COTS for things and just run to BestBuy etc for a replacement?
Click to expand...

That's fine... when you're not working in an environment that can explode you, squash you flat, unravel your DNA or cause you to yoink your own eyeballs out and start spouting Latin warnings.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Scott Kenny said:
Why get something bespoke made that you can't easily replace and cost an arm and a leg, when you can use COTS for things and just run to BestBuy etc for a replacement?
Click to expand...

That's fine... when you're not working in an environment that can explode you, squash you flat, unravel your DNA or cause you to yoink your own eyeballs out and start spouting Latin warnings.
Click to expand...
I was a USN submariner. We tried to use as much COTS as we could inside. At the pressure hull, though? It's called SUBSAFE. Double valves at any opening more than 1/4" in diameter. All pipes welded, not brazed or silver-soldered. All welds Xrayed. Procedures and checklists everywhere.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Orionblamblam said:
Scott Kenny said:
Why get something bespoke made that you can't easily replace and cost an arm and a leg, when you can use COTS for things and just run to BestBuy etc for a replacement?
Click to expand...

That's fine... when you're not working in an environment that can explode you, squash you flat, unravel your DNA or cause you to yoink your own eyeballs out and start spouting Latin warnings.
Click to expand...
I was a USN submariner. We tried to use as much COTS as we could inside. At the pressure hull, though? It's called SUBSAFE. Double valves at any opening more than 1/4" in diameter. All pipes welded, not brazed or silver-soldered. All welds Xrayed. Procedures and checklists everywhere.
Click to expand...

SUBSAFE build on lessons learned the hardest way: Scorpion and Tresher. No similar accident since then (1963 & 1968).

Didn't knew Titanic dives had evolved to "commercial" tourist subs, not Nautile, not MIR. I thought such dives still privately borrowed robust and proven subs, well, like the Mir or Nautile.
Seems I was wrong, and some greedy private asshole build his own tourist submarine. And of course they did it cutting corners. What could possibly go wrong, when diving 3 miles deep ?

If they are still alive, they have oxygen until tomorrow. My gut feeling, unfortunately...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH7KYmGnj40
 
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Orionblamblam said:
Oh yeah. This seemed like a spectacular idea.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670931677013524487
View: https://twitter.com/FnpMarieOH/status/1670931677013524487


It looked like it was the "Salvage 1" of submarines.
Click to expand...

Titan Submersible

OceanGate Inc. is a privately held company that provides manned submersible assets and expertise for commercial, research and military applications.
oceangate.com oceangate.com

WTF
This thing is made from Carbon Fiber with max of 4000 meter dive,
Titanic lies 3800 meter deep, give the sub safety range of 200 meters, before implosion
its runs with game pad controller and has non standard parts build in.

Let face it, they are dead...
 
have to agree re the devolving ot tech. Anyone and his Monkey partner can now dive the ship. With the devolution comes greed and risk taking.

I doubt they will make it unless they are already on the surface on the way up.
 
Michel Van said:
WTF
This thing is made from Carbon Fiber with max of 4000 meter dive,
Titanic lies 3800 meter deep, give the sub safety range of 200 meters, before implosion
its runs with game pad controller and has non standard parts build in.

Let face it, they are dead...
Click to expand...

I cannot judge how competent the engineering work was, but rated depth is not crush depth (at least it should not be...) and even then 200m would be a decently comfortable margin, in absolute if not relative terms. Especially so when the sea floor in the area is at 3800m, meaning you can't actually sink any lower in the first place. A WWI submarine was probably that close to crush depth while running on the surface... (quite apart from the fact that I hope safety standards are higher than that appalling benchmark, obviously). Even in some fairly modern SSKs designed for littoral environments, the relatively modest design depth means their officially sanctioned operating envelope may well reach within 200m of crush depth?

But yeah, it's not looking promising, though of course I hope they can be rescued alive :(
 
Some further background on the seemingly underlying philosophy:

www.insider.com

The maker of the lost Titan submersible previously complained about strict passenger-vessel regulations, saying the industry was 'obscenely safe'

In a 2019 interview about the Titan, OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush lamented the effect of safety regulations on the commercial submersible industry.
www.insider.com www.insider.com

www.insider.com

Titanic expedition firm's CEO said his greatest fear was 'things that will stop me from being able to get to the surface'

In an interview with CBS last year, Stockton Rush discussed his concerns about the trips, but also insisted they were safe.
www.insider.com www.insider.com
 
martinbayer said:
Some further background on the seemingly underlying philosophy:

www.insider.com

The maker of the lost Titan submersible previously complained about strict passenger-vessel regulations, saying the industry was 'obscenely safe'

In a 2019 interview about the Titan, OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush lamented the effect of safety regulations on the commercial submersible industry.
www.insider.com www.insider.com

www.insider.com

Titanic expedition firm's CEO said his greatest fear was 'things that will stop me from being able to get to the surface'

In an interview with CBS last year, Stockton Rush discussed his concerns about the trips, but also insisted they were safe.
www.insider.com www.insider.com
Click to expand...

If that was the prevailing attitude though, conventional wisdom about margins regarding diving envelope to mechanical limits may indeed not apply :(
 
Look ma ! A Richard Branson of submarines ! (2007 & 2014 Virgin accidents, cough cough). That miserable SOB was complaining about government safety regulations, now he will all too happy governments look for his rickety sub - or at least, what's left of it...

My bet he soon starts spinning the recovery efforts a) as an heroic story, if successfull or b) as a noble sacrifice, if those people are dead.

obscenely safe
Click to expand...

Well I hope he hasn't been obscenely crushed... :rolleyes:
 
Trident said:
I cannot judge how competent the engineering work was, but rated depth is not crush depth (at least it should not be...) and even then 200m would be a decently comfortable margin, in absolute if not relative terms. Especially so when the sea floor in the area is at 3800m, meaning you can't actually sink any lower in the first place. A WWI submarine was probably that close to crush depth while running on the surface... (quite apart from the fact that I hope safety standards are higher than that appalling benchmark, obviously). Even in some fairly modern SSKs designed for littoral environments, the relatively modest design depth means their officially sanctioned operating envelope may well reach within 200m of crush depth?
Click to expand...
For a normally-designed and operated submersible, the 4,000m rating would be the test depth, and depending on the rules applied might correspond to a design collapse depth anywhere between 6,000m and 8,000m. 'Crush depth' is a mostly theoretical concept, which should be at least equal to the design collapse depth, and which will vary from hull to hull.. You only find out what it is when it's too late for anything except academic interest.

By way of example, the THRESHER had a test depth of 1,300 feet, a design collapse depth of 1,950 feet, and actually imploded at 2,400 feet.

For this thing... who knows?
 
Foo Fighter said:
have to agree re the devolving ot tech. Anyone and his Monkey partner can now dive the ship.
Click to expand...

Similar perhaps to Mt.Everest. Used to be such a difficult challenge that only a tiny number of well provisioned, well-trained experts dare even attempt it, now there are *lines* of tourists stacking up.

_107098681_everest-lhotse-faces1040028-cralfdujmovits.jpg


Spaceflight will someday be like that.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Foo Fighter said:
have to agree re the devolving ot tech. Anyone and his Monkey partner can now dive the ship.
Click to expand...

Similar perhaps to Mt.Everest. Used to be such a difficult challenge that only a tiny number of well provisioned, well-trained experts dare even attempt it, now there are *lines* of tourists stacking up.

_107098681_everest-lhotse-faces1040028-cralfdujmovits.jpg


Spaceflight will someday be like that.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Give Elon Musk and heirs another hundred years - maybe. But I doubt it...
 
One can wonder why they don't carve a second track a few metres to the side... the snow looks the same
 
About a quarter past next Tuesday probably. A quarter to next Friday for a lift so there is no need to go outside and (Heavens ta Betsy) get cold
 
Orionblamblam said:
I remain confounded about the use of carbon fiber in compression. Surely a titanium or steel hull would be better; the extra weight would be a *bonus* here.
Click to expand...

Same with me
The homepage say its Carbon Fiber cylinder with titanium domes on ends, one can be remove to enter and exit the crew.
there homepage say that cylinder Hull is around 12,7 cm or 5 inch thick,

OceanGate | Photo Gallery | Titan

OceanGate Inc. is a privately held company that provides manned submersible assets and expertise for commercial, research and military applications.
oceangate.com oceangate.com
according Homepage has this sub largest view dome on any Sub of this kind 53 cm or 21 inch in diameter

OceanGate | Photo Gallery | Titan

OceanGate Inc. is a privately held company that provides manned submersible assets and expertise for commercial, research and military applications.
oceangate.com oceangate.com

after lates new the Sub went missing at Sunday and had the guy who build this thing on board.
 
Apparently, they fired the guy “responsible for the safety of all crew and clients.” in 2018...

"Given the prevalent flaws in the previously tested 1/3 scale model, and the visible flaws in the carbon end samples for the Titan, Lochridge again stressed the potential danger to passengers of the Titan as the submersible reached extreme depths. The constant pressure cycling weakens existing flaws resulting in large tears of the carbon. Non-destructive testing was critical to detect such potentially existing flaws in order to ensure a solid and safe product for the safety of the passengers and crew."

Missing Titanic Sub Once Faced Massive Lawsuit Over Depths It Could Safely Travel To

This isn't disruptive, its criminal.

Zeb
 
Indeed. I would be curious about the exact conditions (financial and otherwise) of the Space Act Agreement between OceanGate and NASA MSFC for the development of the carbon fiber structure. Follow the money...
 
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A german who took trip in that sub in 2021
Declared to German News media that trip was "Himmelfahrtskommando" or suicide squad:
The Crew has no possibility to open the Sub from inside,
There were constant technical problems,
In one case they had to make last minute welding work on Sub, while the crew was on board ready to dive !

Source in German
www.br.de

"Himmelfahrtskommando": Niederbayer war im "Titanic"-Tauchboot

Arthur Loibl aus Straubing kennt das U-Boot, das bei einem Tauchgang zur "Titanic" verschollen ist: Der 60-jährige Niederbayer war 2021 bei einer Expedition dabei - aus seiner heutigen Sicht "ein Himmelfahrtskommando", wie er dem BR berichtet.
www.br.de www.br.de

OceanGate do not respond on any question of media.
According BBC reporter Max Matza
OceanGate close it facility in the Port of Everett’s (north of Seattle)
Remove the company signs from building and windows have been papered over.
Neither are eight OceanGate employees to be seen

Source:
 
"A WWI submarine was probably that close to crush depth while running on the surface..."

IIRC, several of the inter-war mega 'Cruiser Subs' certainly had crush depths less than length of sub...
--
OceanGate ? Like the sub-orbital jaunts, their passengers and crew must have signed waivers...

If the debris is found near Titanic, I fear it will become a sight-seeing attraction...
 
As a fundamental safety item, I'd have made the hull design crush depth 50% greater than the working depth. That's a design theme that the USN has held to for decades. Test Depth of 1000ft, Crush depth of 1500ft. In this case, test depth of 4000m, crush depth of 6000m. Which would also give margin for the design to go into the Pacific and see some of those wrecks.

But even with only a 10% margin on the hull Crush Depth of 4400m, diving on the Titanic should have been safe. You're going to the bottom, and the bottom is at 3800m. 200m from your test depth, 600m from your crush depth.

But titanium and carbon fiber? Galvanic corrosion issues. In air. In salt water? up to 11, maybe 13.

Time to ask the US if they heard a small implosion on SOSUS.
 
Archibald said:
Scott Kenny said:
Orionblamblam said:
Scott Kenny said:
Why get something bespoke made that you can't easily replace and cost an arm and a leg, when you can use COTS for things and just run to BestBuy etc for a replacement?
Click to expand...

That's fine... when you're not working in an environment that can explode you, squash you flat, unravel your DNA or cause you to yoink your own eyeballs out and start spouting Latin warnings.
Click to expand...
I was a USN submariner. We tried to use as much COTS as we could inside. At the pressure hull, though? It's called SUBSAFE. Double valves at any opening more than 1/4" in diameter. All pipes welded, not brazed or silver-soldered. All welds Xrayed. Procedures and checklists everywhere.
Click to expand...

SUBSAFE build on lessons learned the hardest way: Scorpion and Tresher. No similar accident since then (1963 & 1968).
Click to expand...
And it's important to note that Scorpion, the 1968 loss, had not gotten her SUBSAFE refit yet. She was scheduled to when she got back from that patrol. As a result of that, Scorpion was running shallow, restricted from diving particularly deep.
 
Nik said:
"A WWI submarine was probably that close to crush depth while running on the surface..."

IIRC, several of the inter-war mega 'Cruiser Subs' certainly had crush depths less than length of sub...
--
OceanGate ? Like the sub-orbital jaunts, their passengers and crew must have signed waivers...

If the debris is found near Titanic, I fear it will become a sight-seeing attraction...
Click to expand...
In the linked videos above, the reporter reads out some of the material from the waiver, specifically citing, "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body," so unless they changed the language in their release, the passengers should have gone in with eyes open.

Of course, the founder then goes on to say that going SOME 3,800 METERS TO THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN FLOOR, "should be like an elevator. It shouldn't take a lot of skill." So that's the caliber of brain power we're working with.

I mean, I hope they made it to the surface and the navy picks them up safe and sound, but it really sounds like some deeply unserious (if you'll pardon the pun) wanna-be disruptor got himself and 4 willing dupes killed because he not only thought he was smarter than he was, but he also thought he was smarter than everyone else in the industry.
 
I would say, if you consent to be sealed from the outside by 17 bolts in any container with no standing room in a tight compartment that you cannot under any circumstances open from the inside and then be immersed to deep sea conditions beyond your control in a vessel of dubious design, I would urgently recommend to reconsider your life choices, but by then it's probably way too late... But, to quote Alfred Matthew "Weird Al" Yankovic's song, it's apparently just one of those "First World Problems". Dear old Charly Darwin's natural selection still reigns supreme...
 
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martinbayer said:
...I would urgently recommend to reconsider your life choices...
Click to expand...
I would add to that the recommendation to check the DEI/ESG score of the company responsible. If they're highly rated... smile politely and slowly back away, taking your life and your funds with you.
 
Where, oh where is our Lone Elon Musk saviour if you need him??? if there was ever an opportunity for one man self aggrandization after that botched Thai cave kids submarine rescue incident, it is now, so dig, nay, dive deeper, and be the superhero you always aspired to be!!!
 

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