North Korean UAVs

Michel Van

Michel Van

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According the German new magazine "Der Spiegel"

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea lost two drones over the Republic of Korea,
While the second drone was found in DMZ between Koreas. a week ago,
The discovery rase unease that South Korea Military, that there Air defense got holes.

source in German language (and include Pictures)
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nordkorea-konflikt-suedkorea-meldet-zerschellte-drohne-a-961830.html
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/drohnen-wracks-aus-nordkorea-in-suedkorea-gefunden-a-962253.html
 

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How to defend airspace against these model planes? Low radar signature to start with and the Spiegel mentions they probably penetrated at below 100m. Apparently the lowest height SK air defense radars can survey. I'm a bit surpised that radar coverage doesn't go lower. It must be one of the best guarded borders on the world and there is a 100m gap?
 
ROK after receiving information on location of 3rd crashed drone from a farmer and others that came forwards after seeing the photo's of the one drone to say they saw similar drone crash on a local mountain, troops were mobilized in area to search and a third drone was has been found and recovered on the mountain slope in Samcheok

http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2014/04/06/south-korea-finds-another-crashed-drone/
 

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gTg said:
How to defend airspace against these model planes? Low radar signature to start with and the Spiegel mentions they probably penetrated at below 100m. Apparently the lowest height SK air defense radars can survey. I'm a bit surpised that radar coverage doesn't go lower. It must be one of the best guarded borders on the world and there is a 100m gap?
Click to expand...


Maybe if you mounted a radar on a balloon (to look downward) - otherwise things get in the way.


Of course, with very small size radar and IR stealth become possible because you can use lighter structural materials and lower amounts of chemical energy. So you can do things like make very cool (literally) transparent airplanes out of foam.


I suppose the solution is to make sure people have a few shotguns around? Skeet shooting.
 
Avimimus said:
gTg said:
How to defend airspace against these model planes? Low radar signature to start with and the Spiegel mentions they probably penetrated at below 100m. Apparently the lowest height SK air defense radars can survey. I'm a bit surpised that radar coverage doesn't go lower. It must be one of the best guarded borders on the world and there is a 100m gap?
Click to expand...


Maybe if you mounted a radar on a balloon (to look downward) - otherwise things get in the way.


Of course, with very small size radar and IR stealth become possible because you can use lighter structural materials and lower amounts of chemical energy. So you can do things like make very cool (literally) transparent airplanes out of foam.


I suppose the solution is to make sure people have a few shotguns around? Skeet shooting.
Click to expand...


Forget radar, a modern day version of a barrage balloon might be a good deterrent. You'd have to change their location daily, and it wouldn't stop all flights, but it might be enough to give the people on the other side a few headaches.


But I wonder if this NK drone is an off the shelf rc aircraft from china. I could swear that I've seen something very similar looking on an RC aircraft site.
 
You can buy off-the-shelf fixed wing RC models, even quite large ones with a remarkable payload, that
are just meant for photo/camera flights.
 
Avimimus said:
I suppose the solution is to make sure people have a few shotguns around? Skeet shooting.
Click to expand...

Or, along the lines of something a little more high (albeit old) tech:

index.php

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5480.0.html

Of course you'd need to update the target acquisition & tracking systems a bit...
 
There is one major issue which haven't been considered yet on this thread.

Cost/benefit analysis of shooting down these drones. Is the information collected by these drones even worth of bullets from standard assault rifle?
 
Cost/benefit of these drone ops?

DMZ probing by drones may well be a projection of psy-ops protocols..
& surely must be worth a few rounds of gun fun in response..
 
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I think as well the PsyOp factor is a big one here, along the line of: Look we can overfly your high value assets to take some pictures. Next the load my not be a DSLR...[/font]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I'm asking me if these drones are flown in real time like a RC plane/current UAV, or if they use pre-programmed way points like the FireBees in Vietnam. [/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]As the Spiegel article mentions the imagery cannot be sent back in real time by data link, i'm inclined to think it's the latter. [/font]
 
Seems to be a Chinese design:

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1821740-1-1.html

Deino
 
North Korean UAV is Chinese-made SKY-09P
One of the North Korean UAV that crashed in South Korea has been identified as coming from China.

The SKY-09P is manufactured by Taiyuan Navigation Friend Aviation Technology Co. Ltd.
This company was formed in July 2003 and is based in Taiyuan city, Shanxi province.
According to the company’s datasheet, the UAV has a speed of 80-100km/h and a range of less than 40km. It can carry a payload of 3kg and is recovered by parachute.


Link in Chinese: Taiyuan Navigation Friend Aviation Technology Co. Ltd.
 
www.nknews.org

New North Korean military drone spotted on runway, largest seen to date | NK PRO

A large new North Korean military drone appeared in commercial satellite imagery for the first time on Wednesday, according to NK Pro analysis, a sign that the country continues testing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in line with leader Kim Jong Un’s development goals. The new aircraft appears...
www.nknews.org www.nknews.org
planet-jun14-2023-panghyon-airbase-new-larger-drone-33m-uav-appears-2.jpg

35 meter wingspan !!
 
So they are working/fielding on RQ-9 and RQ-4 class UAVs. Most interesting timing, 2019 RQ-4 shot down, 2023 DPRK builds a smiliar UAV...
Anyway, why on earth are we discussing this in the alternate history section, at least from the mystery aircraft posts/images and Panghyon satellite images showing the swept wing aircraft/drone or whatever it is, this should be split and moved to the aviation section, these are all real, so i would appreciate if the moderators can do that, perhaps a new topic titled "DPRK indigenous Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and manned aircraft" or something like that. Thanks.
 
lancer21 said:
Anyway, why on earth are we discussing this in the alternate history section, at least from the mystery aircraft posts/images and Panghyon satellite images showing the swept wing aircraft/drone or whatever it is, this should be split and moved to the aviation section, these are all real, so i would appreciate if the moderators can do that, perhaps a new topic titled "DPRK indigenous Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and manned aircraft" or something like that. Thanks.
Click to expand...
That would be great.
 
PYH2023072702260004200_P4.jpg PYH2023072702390004200_P4.jpg PYH2023072702410004200_P4.jpg

Some detailed photos of the new North Korean drones emerged from their reportings about Russian military delegation visit to Pyongyang. In the last photo, there's a booth showing multiple photographs of a HALE drone taking off and flying, although from this angle and resolution it is very hard to tell if that is actually North Korea's new HALE drone or images of Global Hawk from the internet.
 
Maro.Kyo said:
... In the last photo, there's a booth showing multiple photographs of a HALE drone taking off and flying, although from this angle and resolution it is very hard to tell if that is actually North Korea's new HALE drone or images of Global Hawk from the internet.
Click to expand...


Allegedly these video-clips, however my feeling tells me it looks most fishy like a CG only!?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1684448601123217409
View: https://twitter.com/nknewsorg/status/1684448601123217409
 
Deino said:
Allegedly these video-clips, however my feeling tells me it looks most fishy like a CG only!?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1684448601123217409
View: https://twitter.com/nknewsorg/status/1684448601123217409
Click to expand...
We know those things are tested since at least mid-june (satellite photos).
Chance that those are fake IMHO is very low, Korean footage is just always like this.

now, basic questions:

(1)Why HALE of all things? It's super impressive for NK, but why? Sheer scale of task is huge.
(2)Engine? High altitude engines aren't free commodity.
(3)Very obvious SATCOM fairing(or they hid there a ground datalink?). But what satellite? Sign of a future program? Or friendly?
 
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Fascinating. The engine on the DPRK RQ-4 is imo the biggest breakthrough, if they have managed to build an indigenous 3-3,5 ton class modern turbofan like the F-137, then the sky is the limit from now on. At a stroke that's more than enough for a decent trainer, and one or two of them fitted with afterburners are enough for a true attack/fighter drone/drones or even a Ching-Kuo type fighter. Or it can be upscaled for a true fighter application turbofan, not to mention larger drones.

PS: Obviously, there must have been very close cooperation with Iran in inspecting/studying that shot-down RQ-4, and i kinda expect an iranian RQ-4 any day now.
 
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lancer21 said:
Fascinating. The engine on the DPRK RQ-4 is imo the biggest breakthrough, if they have managed to build an indigenous 3-3,5 ton class modern turbofan like the F-137, then the sky is the limit from now on. At a stroke that's more than enough for a decent trainer, and one or two of them fitted with afterburners are enough for a true attack/fighter drone/drones or even a Ching-Kuo type fighter. Or it can be upscaled for a true fighter application turbofan, not to mention larger drones.

PS: Obviously, there must have been very close cooperation with Iran in inspecting/studying that shot-down RQ-4, and i kinda expect an iranian RQ-4 any day now.
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Exactly. The emphasis on education (especially after the recent reform), science and research in the DPRK is already bearing incredible fruits. "NKF-21" will not surprise us in a few years.
 
Wont held hope for engine tho. As that requires industrial base with consistent order. Something which i'm not really see NK have. The engine could be any business jet engine they can obtain or even the non military one.

Sensors and such they are unlikely to build indigenously, might source from China or Russia.
 
Geo said:
Pardon, but is there any rational reason why you think these are just CGs?
Click to expand...
That seems to be the standard western reaction whenever DPRK (or other country like Russia or Iran or China) show something impressive, oh it's CGI, it's mock-up, it's not real, blah blah blah. Mr Deino here seems to be just towing the line, which considering i've been following for many years and bought some of his books, it's dejectable to say the least.
 
stealthflanker said:
Wont held hope for engine tho. As that requires industrial base with consistent order. Something which i'm not really see NK have. The engine could be any business jet engine they can obtain or even the non military one.
Click to expand...
Bisjet engine won't make it for a HALE.
Probably foreign order, but what engine?
 
And there is no reason why it would be of a great difference compared to the commercial one. And it's not like NK can get the H version anyway.
 
stealthflanker said:
And there is no reason why it would be of a great difference compared to the commercial one. And it's not like NK can get the H version anyway.
Click to expand...
All high-altitude aircraft(drones or not) I can remember had special engine mods, just for them.
That's the trick - where to get(or how to adapt themselves) an H version.
Of potentially available engines, D-30 has an H version...but it's too large.
 
Ainen said:
All high-altitude aircraft(drones or not) I can remember had special engine mods, just for them.
That's the trick - where to get(or how to adapt themselves) an H version.
Of potentially available engines, D-30 has an H version...but it's too large.
Click to expand...

Or just accept the limitation of the engine and move on with life. 9100-15000 meter altitude is still a viable operating altitude for ISR platform. Used for Sea surveillance, flying at say 12000 m still allows coverage of over 500 km against target flying at 1 m above the sea.
 
stealthflanker said:
Or just accept the limitation of the engine and move on with life. 9100-15000 meter altitude is still a viable operating altitude for ISR platform. Used for Sea surveillance, flying at say 12000 m still allows coverage of over 500 km against target flying at 1 m above the sea.
Click to expand...
The whole point of HALE is largely gone then, though - especially since Reaper-bae is shown right next to it.
That's why HALE of all things was so surprising - it isn't a toy just for everyone. Large MALE option is just so obvious.
 
Ainen said:
The whole point of HALE is largely gone then,
Click to expand...

IF they use the commercial engine which you argue cannot reach the same altitude due to some sort of missing specialized module. Then it wont, NK have to accept that "limitations". IF they can adapt that engine to provide same envelope, then it's impressive.

I look at that on Engineering and sensor operation perspective. One can get higher horizon coverage by flying higher or wider communication coverage.
 
stealthflanker said:
IF they use the commercial engine which you argue cannot reach the same altitude due to some sort of missing specialized module. Then it wont, NK have to accept that "limitations". IF they can adapt that engine to provide same envelope, then it's impressive.

I look at that on Engineering and sensor operation perspective. One can get higher horizon coverage by flying higher or wider communication coverage.
Click to expand...
There is then zero point over Reaperski; yet both of them are present.
It'll do the same, for much longer and much cheaper. There are a lot of sacrifices going for those excessive ~8 kms of operational altitude. Even somewhat less, potentially, as Reaper evolution shows.
 
Geo said:
Exactly. The emphasis on education (especially after the recent reform), science and research in the DPRK is already bearing incredible fruits. "NKF-21" will not surprise us in a few years.
Click to expand...
Oh boy, I don't know if this is meant as a sarcasm or is actually serious. If the latter, yes that would be possible someday, but not "in a few years". That's delusional.

Ainen said:
There is then zero point over Reaperski; yet both of them are present.
It'll do the same, for much longer and much cheaper. There are a lot of sacrifices going for those excessive ~8 kms of operational altitude. Even somewhat less, potentially, as Reaper evolution shows.
Click to expand...
All we see right now are just evidences that they actually exist, were under testing and some up close fotos of those drones. Although I called them NK MALE and HALE drones, we don't even know their actual operational altitudes, endurance, kind of equippment they are fitted with, etc.

I do see a clear difference, especially in sensor suite compartment between the NK Reaper and NK Global Hawk, and should the NK Global Hawk be a drone that is not HALE capable despite its looks due to lacking specific high altitude engine performance, it could still mean that the SAR equipment is just that much heavier than the EOIR turret on NK Reaper.

*edit grammar
 
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As for the compartment that looks like where a satcom dish would be housed in, there's a problem that NK doesn't possess a rocket that could launch GEO comsat, nor the technology to develop a robust military comsat, nor the industrial base to launch lower orbit comsat constellation that would garauntee uniterrupted operation of drones through satcom.

I'm not sure if UN sanctions on NK also blocks the trade of services, in this case possoble usage of Chinese comsats though, and if that's possible, then that' one way to solve the satcom issue. I suspect that in case satcom is completely out of the picture, they might be considering using a aerial relay drone though.

Apart from that, details about its avionics, especially sensors would need to emerge first to really be able to judge the potential capabilities of these things.
 
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