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Nakajima J1N ("Gekko") Prototypes and Projects

blackkite

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Hi! Please try Japanese English auto translater. ;)
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Ohgai/3853/jnrs/jnrsC232l.htm

http://military.sakura.ne.jp/ac/j1n1-r.htm

http://eletec.web.fc2.com/siryoukan/2siki_riku_tei.html

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/cl-pln/FR041.html

J1N1 : 13-Shi twin engine land base fighter
J1N1-C (later J1N1-R) : 2-Shiki land base reconnaissance aircraft
J1N1-S : Gekko night fighter(type 11)
J1J1-Sa : Gekko night fighter(type 11 Ko)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ayURXIMzbI
 

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blackkite

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hesham

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Nice drawings my dear Blackkite.
 

lark

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Schräge Musik above Japan... what a sight !
 

Jemiba

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I've split the J1N posts from the "Pre WW II Japanese Project" thread, because it's
already quite a lot good material, so deserves a thread on its own, I think, and because
the Gekko, flown for the first time in May 1941, actually was there before the outbreak of
war in the Pacific region, but to my opinion "before WW II" generally is defined somewhat
different. ;)
Nevertheless, very interesting variants, thank you for posting !
 

hesham

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That's better my dear Jemiba.
 

blackkite

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Jemiba said:
I've split the J1N posts from the "Pre WW II Japanese Project" thread, because it's
already quite a lot good material, so deserves a thread on its own, I think, and because
the Gekko, flown for the first time in May 1941, actually was there before the outbreak of
war in the Pacific region, but to my opinion "before WW II" generally is defined somewhat
different. ;)
Nevertheless, very interesting variants, thank you for posting !
;)
 

gral_rj

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Does anyone has pictures of the originally planned J1N, with the twin MG barbettes
 

blackkite

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Hi!
This picture shows the No.1 prototype of the 13-shi twin engine land base escort fighter completed in the end of March 1941.
You can see opening windows for the pilot, the reconnaissance crew and the radio opetator.
Twin MG barbettes was covered by the forward retractable slide fairing which had the window to keep radio operator/gunner's visibility when retracted position.
The tail end cone of the slide cover was rotated and retracted into the fuselage. You can see the top end of the cone when retracted in the 4th picture right edge. The tail end cone did not slide, only rotated.
Twin MG barbettes was developed by Kugisho, the IJN gave up to use this weapon because of many troubles.
Source : FAMOUS AIRPLANES OF THE WORLD No.57 NAVY NIGHT FIGHTER GEKKO. ISBN978-4-89319-054-3

Hien (Ki-61) shot down about 70 sets of B-29, Gekko shot down about 40 sets of B-29, and Raiden shot down about 30 sets of B-29. Of course Toryu shot down some B-29.
Antiaircraft fire contributed to shooting down of B29 bomber most.
In record of the U.S. Forces, about 70% is considered as the damage caused by an antiaircraft gun among the numbers of battle losses of 485 sets (a gross loss also including an accident is 714 sets).
There is detailed record about the damage machine which came back alive.
The number of the bodies which received damage by the Japanese army airplane was 348.
The number of the bodies which received damage with the antiaircraft gun was 2063.
They were 234 cause unknown.
The number of distressed aircrafts was 62.
These sum totals were 2707 sets.
The body which received the damage which crash-landed on inner Iwo-jima is a total of 2251 sets. Probably, the loss of B29 leaped up several times, if there was not Iwo-jima, since there were 24761 saved crews.
 

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Jemiba

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Just a question: Was the 20mm turret of the J1N1-F just a defensive weapon, or a kind of flexible "schräge Musik"
(upward firing attack armamment) ? With that quite large and probably draggy installation performance certainly
was lower, than that of the other versions.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
J1N1-F was planned as a battle ship firing observation aircraft(spotter plane) at the Solomon Islands battle line , not night fighter.
So turret was just a defensive weapon. F means the observation aircraft. Please confirm Mitsubishi F1M2.
Under the influence of a big power gun turret, J1N1-F had the bad aerodynamic characteristic, and was afflicted by buffeting etc.
It was not used for an observation duty although about ten sets were made as an experiment.
Examples of power turret
(1) MG131(13mm) machine gun×2
(2)1-Shiki large power turret(99-shiki 20mm cannon×1)

Source : FAMOUS AIRPLANES OF THE WORLD No.57 NAVY NIGHT FIGHTER"GEKKO" Bunrindo.
 

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gerhard

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Hi Guys
If one look at the plan view, two distinctive bulges can be seen at the canopy sides. Was this one was the original proposal for the J1N?
Cheers
 

Jemiba

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Thank you for that explanation, blackkite ! ;)
It's a role, I wouldn't have thought of on my own, I must say. An aircraft, that certainly wasn't
carrier based for naval artillery spotting ? Can only think of it for training purposes, maybe for
adjusting a fire control system. And if such a self defence weapon would have been needed
then ? Seems, there's an interesting story behind it !

About those bulges or blisters in the canopy (very first post of this thread) I can only
think of position for the controls of a remotely controlled rearward armament, similar to
that of the Me 210/410.
 

blackkite

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gerhard said:
Hi Guys
If one look at the plan view, two distinctive bulges can be seen at the canopy sides. Was this one was the original proposal for the J1N?
Cheers
Sorry I can't understand what you mean.
 

Jemiba

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I think, he means the parts, that can be seen here:
 

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blackkite

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I have not seen such a plan view. ??? If you please, show me the drawing. Or do you have pictures which took this part?

http://www.horae.dti.ne.jp/~foxone/26.htm

Please push Japanese letters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voF6I4WAt2k&feature=player_embedded
 

blackkite

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Oh sorry I missed it. Very small drawing.
 

blackkite

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gerhard said:
Hi Guys
If one look at the plan view, two distinctive bulges can be seen at the canopy sides. Was this one was the original proposal for the J1N?
Cheers
Yes it was. According to Japanese explanation,
"In the drawing considered to be the original proposal, wind shield of the reconnaissance member seat overhang to the starboard side, and had secured the field of view for shooting to back and the starboard side.
Also wind shield of the radio operator seat overhang to the port side, and had secured the field of view for shooting to back and the port side.
This design had two sets of the 20mm revolution machine guns to the back direction.
The overhang of wind shield was lost in No. 1 prototype. "
 

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Could we get a better picture of the overhang on the canopy? :)
 

Jemiba

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Winston said:
Could we get a better picture of the overhang on the canopy? :)
Maybe a redrawn version of the drawing in question is helpful ?
 

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blackkite

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Winston said:
Could we get a better picture of the overhang on the canopy? :)
I can't find any more drawing about this design in Japanese sources.
 

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Thank you Jemiba, love seeing these unusual designs. ;D
 

blackkite

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Hi!
Span : 17m, Length : 10m, Height : 4.6m(Horizontal position), 3.33m(3point position), 3 point angle : 14.5degree, Main landing gear size : 800φ×300b, Propeller diameter : 3m

Source : Super Zero Reppu, Maru magazine, ISBN978-4-7698-1490-0

http://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_ja_JP=%E3%82%AB%E3%82%BF%E3%82%AB%E3%83%8A&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ISBN978-4-7698-1490-0

There was a Gekko 12 type plan with Kinsei(金星)60 engine, but did not realize.
(Take off power of Kinsei 60 was 1500hp, where Sakae 21 was 1130hp.)
There is no explanation for jet powered Gekko, only drawing.Supposing the replacement of piston engine to the jet engine of a Gekko fighter was planned, in order to adjust a center-of-gravity position, the equipment position of a jet engine may be more forward position compared with this side view. (Please watch Kikka 3 side view drawing)
 

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Jemiba

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Principally replacing the piston engines of a twin engined aircraft with jet engines shouldn't
be a great problem, but here the nacelles had to house the landing gear, too, The engines
look very similar to those of the Kikka, they show no sign of wheel well doors and with a look
at the nacelles of the Kikka (photo via http://hud607.fire.prohosting.com/uncommon/reference/japan/ija_turbojet.html),
I doubt, that the wheels would have had enough space there.
 

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Grey Havoc

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There is no explanation for jet powered Gekko.
I'd suspect that it was intended to be a survivable recon asset, covering the waters around the Home Islands. The Japanese were under no illusions about the likely longevity of most of their surveillance/reconnaissance assets in the face of the firepower of an Allied invasion fleet.
 

blackkite

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Another artistic impression of Tenga.

Source : Super Zero Reppu, Maru magazine, ISBN978-4-7698-1490-0
 

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Jemiba

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Thank you Justo, that's a plausible solution indeed. I suspect, that the landing gear
is attached to the same structural point, that was used for the piston engined variant, too,
just retracting sideways, instead of backwards ?
 

Justo Miranda

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Grey Havoc said:
There is no explanation for jet powered Gekko.
I'd suspect that it was intended to be a survivable recon asset, covering the waters around the Home Islands. The Japanese were under no illusions about the likely longevity of most of their surveillance/reconnaissance assets in the face of the firepower of an Allied invasion fleet.
High-altitude night fighter against the B-29s
 

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blackkite said:
Another artistic impression of Tenga.

Source : Super Zero Reppu, Maru magazine, ISBN978-4-7698-1490-0
The fixing points of the Ne-130 turbojet do not macht with the wing spars positions in this drawing
 

blackkite

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Justo Miranda said:
blackkite said:
Another artistic impression of Tenga.

Source : Super Zero Reppu, Maru magazine, ISBN978-4-7698-1490-0
The fixing points of the Ne-130 turbojet do not macht with the wing spars positions in this drawing
Oh!
 

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Gekko type 12 : interesting with performance it was expected for this project ?
I hope to find in future detailed performance about Gekko with neo jetengine
 

blackkite

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airman said:
Gekko type 12 : interesting with performance it was expected for this project ?
I hope to find in future detailed performance about Gekko with neo jetengine
Yes I think so.
 
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