MTKVP/MTKVA

Quindar Beep

"I really hope they fix that"
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Hello all....

I've been spending a little bit of time trying to synthesize the few (and contradictory) sources for the reusable space vehicle that NPO Energiya worked on in the period prior to Valentin Glushko signing off on Buran in January of 1976. Even the names I find are contradictory: Hendricx & Vis' Energiya-Buran, which I trust more, goes for MTKVP, while Mark Wade favours MTKVA, and there were others too.

Anyway, I've come up with what I believe is an internally consistent description of it -- though I freely admit there are likely errors in it -- and want to invite you to come on over for a read of it. Any comments you may have (here or there), and especially any more sources you might know (please Lord, let them be primary and online so I can run them through Google Translate) are very, very welcome:

https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2012/10/06/mtkvp-glushkos-opening-gambit/
 
Its funny, I never realized that, but also many eastern sources mention it as MTKVA, despite it stands for "Mnogorazovoj Transportnyj Korabl Vertikalnoj Posadki" or reusable transport space ship that lands vertically.

What other contradictory information you have?
 
Matej said:
Its funny, I never realized that, but also many eastern sources mention it as MTKVA, despite it stands for "Mnogorazovoj Transportnyj Korabl Vertikalnoj Posadki" or reusable transport space ship that lands vertically.

What other contradictory information you have?

May I borrow the transliteration of the name you supplied? I was having a hard time finding the Russian words in Latin letters, and my own ability to change from Cyrillic to Latin is...imperfect, so I didn't wish to risk it on my own.

Contradictions I have found:

1) Launcher. As near as I can tell the orbiter was to have been placed on top of a rocket intermediate in size between Glushko's proposed RLA-130 and RLA-150. The designation for it I have seen is RLA-130V, however it is also called a derivative of Vulkan, which name applies more commonly to the RLA-150. The design of the launcher I have seen appears more similar to the RLA-150 as well, with a central core and six strap-on boosters (the RLA-130 was planned with four and the RLA-150 with eight).

I think some of this confusion comes from the reported payload to LEO, approximately 120 tonnes. This is comparable to the reported payload of the RLA-130, but is (I think) merely coincidence. Rather, the RLA-150 was planned to lift 250 tonnes, but in the MTKVP configuration the stage above the central core of the RLA-150 would also have been replaced with the vehicle. This greatly reduces the payload, but still it appears that the so-called RLA-130V was a variation of the RLA-150 Vulkan.

Another part of the confusion comes from contradictions in the names and capabilities of Glushko's proposed rockets. I have seen them named the RLA-120, RLA-135, and RLA-150, the RLA-135 being a different designation for the RLA-130. I have also seen a third arrangement, the RLA-120 and RLA-130, with those designations corresponding to the 100t and 250t rockets.

2) Mass of vehicle. Most sources agree that the vehicle was approximately 80 tonnes, with two figures appearing: exactly 80 tonnes or 88 tonnes. I suppose this may simply represent uncertainty in the original design, however 8t seems to me a bit large to be a simple discrepancy. Encyclopedia Astronautica says the vehicle would have been 200 tonnes! I cannot believe this, and it is my impression that they have derived this weight through confusing the proposed payload of the full Vulkan and the cut-down version that was to launch the MTKVP. However, they list several Russian magazine articles to which I do not have access, and so it is entirely possible they have found a source which says this.

2a) Mass of payload. The sources that say the MTKVP would mass 80 tonnes agree on a payload of approximately 30 tonnes. The Astronautica article says the payload was 80 tonnes. It is my belief that the latter figure is a confusion between the mass of the entire vehicle, and the mass of its payload.

3) Length of vehicle. Two values appear most often, 30m and 37m. I believe that the latter figure includes the mating adapter to the top of the rocket, however this is a guess. I have no evidence. Again, Astronautica says 25m, which is most surprising considering the mass they suggested!

4) Date of cancellation. Most sources agree that the work stopped with Glushko's signing off on the OK-92 proposal that led to Buran. This is January 1976. However, one source says that a re-design to a more triangular fuselage for greater cross-range capability was made in May 1976. I would discount this, but I have other sources say that the triangular re-design did take place and none of them supply a date. So it is a question of where this date after January 1976 is coming from, and if it is correct.

I would give a great deal of money for a summary report from NPO Energiya dating around the middle of 1976 named approximately "On the Research into the MKTVP Proposal, Summarized Now that the Project has Been Cancelled". Perhaps Santa Claus will give it to me for Christmas this year.

Edit to add: Also, I did find two other names used for the vehicle, though only once each: MTC-VP and MTK-AM. Once I realized this I also googled every other combination of Latin letters that might have been used and all of the Cyrillic combinations directly and came up with no more. But I make no promises that I have not missed some and that there are *five* or more names for it!
 
I said it before, but that Hazegrayart guy is of the prolific kind. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't just one person, but actually a small group of talented CGI wizzards. Or perhaps a small SFX company.
 
Great work, but add a little salt. Daedalus was supposed to launch from near Jupiter as its fuel was to be mined there and the multiple air launches shown here depict the rocket exhaust plumes aimed right at the cockpits of the first-stage aircraft. There are a few basic mistakes. Still, congratulations to them.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx897aTJNTI
 
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As Buran was the Soviet Shuttle, this was to be a (kinda/sort-of) Soviet Starship.

Parachutes after the belly flop though.
 
As Buran was the Soviet Shuttle, this was to be a (kinda/sort-of) Soviet Starship.

Parachutes after the belly flop though.
Incorrect analogy. There was no belly flop. The boosters would fall just like the Shuttle SRBs.
 
More RLA options
Have you any information on the MTKVA concept?

Mark Wade's website astronautix.com has a preliminary sketch that actually looks a bit like Starship...a simple cylinder with folded fins up front.

The later design was more of a lozenge--with a wider ventral surface that would look to be better at handling re-entry.

Perhaps later Starships could be built similarly...perhaps with parallel staging.
 
Some time ago I pieced together the RGANTD/Roscosmos releases of the Integrated Rocket Program (and related) docs, put the pages in order and added machine translations in the descriptions of most of them. Might be interesting or useful.
https://buranarchive.space/index?/category/document-scans
 
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Have you any information on the MTKVA concept?

Mark Wade's website astronautix.com has a preliminary sketch that actually looks a bit like Starship...a simple cylinder with folded fins up front.

The later design was more of a lozenge--with a wider ventral surface that would look to be better at handling re-entry.

Perhaps later Starships could be built similarly...perhaps with parallel staging.

To be clear MTKVA is actually NOT a cylinder but lifting body design with a flat "bottom" and the fins were control enhancement. It also landed horizontally under parachutes and shot-duration landing rockets.

Randy
 
Yes.

That is the closest thing to Starship the Soviets had concept wise--a better shape for that kind of re-entry perhaps. That design might lend itself more to parallel staging

A cross section (ventral side facing Earth) would be "A" shaped--meaning any control surfaces are even further from the heat of re-entry. The hinges would not get so hot.
 
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Yes.

That is the closest thing to Starship the Soviets had concept wise--a better shape for that kind of re-entry perhaps. That design might lend itself more to parallel staging

No it was specifically designed for in-line staging because it was figured that would be a lot better for the type of launch facilities that Soviets had.

A cross section (ventral side facing Earth) would be "A" shaped--meaning any control surfaces are even further from the heat of re-entry. The hinges would not get so hot.

The control surfaces were closer to the bottom of the "A" shape due to needing to push them out a low hypersonic speeds for control.
1757465855474.png
As can be seen here.

And here:
1757465944286.png

And finally found the moving gif with the fin deployment here:
1757466923338.png
(and of course it doesn't work :( )

Randy
 

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That is the closest thing to Starship the Soviets had concept wise--a better shape for that kind of re-entry perhaps. That design might lend itself more to parallel staging
no, that isn't close to the Starship. Starship is a stage that is reusable. MTKVA is more like the X-37 on Atlas V/Falcon 9 but without a fairing, it is just a spacecraft.
 
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View attachment 784195

And finally found the moving gif with the fin deployment here:


Randy
The second from the top seems to be a bit wider.

Shuttle and Buran both were side mount so there is nothing to say this couldn't be as well--so ALS/NLS, or MUSTARD, etc

Besides, if the Space Freighter orbiter could be top mounted--why can't this?
 
The second from the top seems to be a bit wider.

Shuttle and Buran both were side mount so there is nothing to say this couldn't be as well--so ALS/NLS, or MUSTARD, etc

Besides, if the Space Freighter orbiter could be top mounted--why can't this?
An inline orbiter with a wing area as big as Shuttle/Buran puts nasty bending loads on the core stage; strengthening the Energia core stage would have made it *a lot* more overweight than it already was
 
Side mount is the best for winged designs of course.

I wonder if the MTKVA shape might be good for Mars. Bionic designs were looked at.
 

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That has saddle tank-like wedges to either side. Hazegray depicts something that is a bit more like a lozenge?

Might control surfaces of a larger variant hide from re-entry atop them? Sliding out at lower speeds perhaps.
 

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