Martin B-57 Canberra competitors ?

[Archibald]

Competion opened in 1950 to replace the A-26 Invader.

North American A-2J Savage
Martin XB-51

Interestingly, foreign competitors were also considered...

Avro Canada CF-100
English Electric Canberra

Any idea of other competitors or entries ?

According to le Fana de l'aviation (February 2007) it seems that Republic entry was based on the French SE-2410 Grognard (due to close links between Republic and Sud aviation)

 

[elmayerle]

NAA A2J, like so many other projects, fell prey to Allison's problems with the XT40. A shame, really, as it was quite an aesthetically pleasing design.

 

[Firefly 2]

Interesting that they considered the original Canberra, and eventually chose for an improved homegrown copy.

 

[TinWing]

Interesting that they considered the original Canberra, and eventually chose for an improved homegrown copy.

The Martin B-58 wasn't so much "improved" as delayed to the point of near obsolescence. The changes made to the baseline Canberra B.2 were largely unneccessary, and often counterproductive.

Of course, the same could be said of the Douglas B-66, which was also inferior to the A3D Skywarrior that it was based on.

 

[Archibald]

Just a question about this competiton.. was there any "paper project" ?

Or was USAF too much in a hurry, and the service only considered existing aircrafts (I've forget the B-45 Tornado ?) ???

Hmmm... night intruder Grognard...

 

[frank]

How capable would the CF-100 have been? The others I can see, but I can't see the CF-100.

Competion opened in 1950 to replace the A-26 Invader.

North American A-2J Savage
Martin XB-51

Interestingly, foreign competitors were also considered...

Avro Canada CF-100
English Electric Canberra

Any idea of other competitors or entries ?

According to le Fana de l'aviation (February 2007) it seems that Republic entry was based on the French SE-2410 Grognard (due to close links between Republic and Sud aviation)

 

[smurf]

There's a full account of the competition in "Martin B-57 Canberra" by Robert Mikesh.
CF-100 "able to defend itself against F-86 type fighters, but bombload and range too small."
Also it says there:

to ensure despatch, the selection was to be made exclusively from existing designs, since creating a new type would add years to the development time

A swept-wing Canberra proposal from Martin was not accepted on these grounds. First idea was for the Canberras to come off British production lines under MDAP, but that got lost. Delivering the numbers wanted was a problem, met on the British side by allowing manufacturing rights for Canberras to be built in USA. But then they did not meet US standards for US production... ... and so on.

 

[nugo]

Hi Archbald!

If you can please tell, In magazine le Fana de l'aviation (February 2007) in what to page about Republic entry was based on the French SE-2410 Grognard ?

 

[Robert Hilton]

Interesting that they considered the original Canberra, and eventually chose for an improved homegrown copy.

I don't call fitting AS Saphire engines instead of RR Avons an improvement.

 

[smurf]

RH said

I don't call fitting AS Saphire engines instead of RR Avons an improvement.

The early Sapphires did not have the surge problems of the early Avons when the guns were fired. Also Wright's had a licence to make them in USA.
Pity they couldn't have waited for the B(I)8, but of course they were in a great hurry and needed something immediately available off the production line ... ...?!?

 

[Robert Hilton]

RH said

I don't call fitting AS Saphire engines instead of RR Avons an improvement.

The early Sapphires did not have the surge problems of the early Avons when the guns were fired. Also Wright's had a licence to make them in USA.
Pity they couldn't have waited for the B(I)8, but of course they were in a great hurry and needed something immediately available off the production line ... ...?!?

That is correct, that is why RR built their Avon compressors to the Saphire standard, effectively lowering the pressure ratio on the first few stages.
If you look up your history on the Avon you'll find it was the result of a very unsatisfactory engine called the AJ65. The compressor design was so poor that they didn't even get it running as a complete unit. A great deal of re-work, an interstage bleed plus variable inlet guide vanes resulted in the Avon series. A series that was so successfull that it is still on the RR books to this day, albeit in an industrial application.

 

[Skybolt]

Just a question about this competiton.. was there any "paper project" ?

Fairchild had a two-turboprop project floating around in 1948. Could be a "paper competitor" for the light bomber - night intruder.

 

[elmayerle]

RH said

I don't call fitting AS Saphire engines instead of RR Avons an improvement.

The early Sapphires did not have the surge problems of the early Avons when the guns were fired. Also Wright's had a licence to make them in USA.
Pity they couldn't have waited for the B(I)8, but of course they were in a great hurry and needed something immediately available off the production line ... ...?!?

Curtiss-Wright built Sapphire = J65 as used in FJ-2/3/4 Fury, A-4A-E, F11F-1, etc. As I understand it, all the early marks of Avon-powered Hunters had severe gun-gas ingestion problems that required significant Avon compressor redesign, to a configuration very similar to that of the Sapphire, to overcome them.

 

[Robert Hilton]

RH said

I don't call fitting AS Saphire engines instead of RR Avons an improvement.

The early Sapphires did not have the surge problems of the early Avons when the guns were fired. Also Wright's had a licence to make them in USA.
Pity they couldn't have waited for the B(I)8, but of course they were in a great hurry and needed something immediately available off the production line ... ...?!?

Curtiss-Wright built Sapphire = J65 as used in FJ-2/3/4 Fury, A-4A-E, F11F-1, etc. As I understand it, all the early marks of Avon-powered Hunters had severe gun-gas ingestion problems that required significant Avon compressor redesign, to a configuration very similar to that of the Sapphire, to overcome them.

See post 11. One other problem with the Sapphire was the vaporiser burner system. The "hockey sticks"had a tendancy to break off on high hour engines.

 

[robunos]

The early Sapphires did not have the surge problems of the early Avons when the guns were fired.
. As I understand it, all the early marks of Avon-powered Hunters had severe gun-gas ingestion problems that required significant Avon compressor redesign, to a configuration very similar to that of the Sapphire, to overcome them.

for more detail on this, see "Rolls-Royce aero engines", Bill Gunston, Patrick Stephens Limited, ISBN 1-85260-037-3, pp 132-137.

 

[nugo]

Hi archibald.

In magazine ( le Fana de l'aviation (February 2007)) that is told about Republic entry was based on the French SE-2410 Grognard ?
What is shown?-- 3-view drawing and (or) picture?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Petrus]

It would be really interesting to know how the Republic design looked like.

By the way, I have always wondered how the CF-100 (an all-weather high-altitude long-range interceptor) was modified to take part in the competion for a light bomber/interdictor that was to fly low-level missions. Does anybody here have any details on that?

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[toura]

hello nugo
If you go on "avia.ruusian.ee" choice "virtual aviation museum" " france" and "sudest" you found the "grognard"
bye

 

[Jemiba]

"..how the CF-100 was modified to take part in the competion.."

Reading the short text about the fly-off in signal-squadron 77, I think, there was no
modification to any of the contenders. The test program was aimed at checking the
manoeuverability, the test flight must include a tight turn in each direction, a slow and
a high-speed pass and a short filed landing, all in a timeframe of ten minutes, which was
the real obstacle for several type. The Canverra, flown by Roland Beamont, completed the
course in six minutes and Beamont used the remaining minutes for a spectacular additional
flight program.

 

[Petrus]

Actually I have meant modifications that were planned had the CF-100 won the competion.

It has always been a mystery to me how the CF-100 could have ever been thought as a competitor to the Canberra. Each of the aircraft belonged to quite a different league, so to speak. The CF-100 certainly could carry bombs, in its monography in the "Wings of Fame" magazine a photo may seen showing the CF-100 with a 1000-lb bomb under each wing but probably it was unable to carry more than such a bombload. So the CF-100 in the ground-attack role would have been something like the F-84, in terms of bomb-carrying capacity at least, having perhaps greater range, an all-weather capability due to the second crew member and avionics he could have operated and an advantage that the two-engine arrangement might have offered. I am afraid that a ground-attack CF-100 could not have been superior to the Canberra in any aspect.

Piotr