Majestics as VSTOL carriers/Escort Cruisers

Martes said:
What did they build/refit at the time? Frigates?
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The "big ticket" items (if that's the right expression) in the first half of the 1960s were:
Eagle's modernisation.​
Hermes' first big refit (1964-66).​
Albion's conversion into a commando carrier.​
Bulwark's conversion into a commando carrier.​
Triumph's conversion into a heavy repair ship.​
Manxman's conversion into a minesweeper support ship.​
Modernising 2 submarine depot ships so they could support nuclear powered submarines.​
 
>Hermes' first big refit (1964-66).
>Triumph's conversion into a heavy repair ship.

These two are the obvious options. One can be completed before Hermes, and Triumph is one of the conversion candidates anyway.
 
Well, almost is stretching a bit too far, as they were already taking her to pieces, but still :)
 
Martes said:
>Hermes' first big refit (1964-66).
>Triumph's conversion into a heavy repair ship.

These two are the obvious options. One can be completed before Hermes, and Triumph is one of the conversion candidates anyway.
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So you're not modernising Eagle 1959-64 then. Fair enough.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
So you're not modernising Eagle 1959-64 then. Fair enough.
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IF the time frame is narrowed to those years. Which we are not totally sure, are we?
But how replacing the work performed on Triumph affects Eagle?
 
The fleet manager in me wants to know the plan, which these days I find more interesting than dreaming up how to fit Sea Slug into an aircraft carrier.

IIUC the Escort Cruiser concept was around 1960-64 as a new ship, and the Cruiser conversions started in 1965 after it was put on the back burner.

What ships will you use, when will the work start-finish, what gets bumped as @NOMISYRRUC has illustrated?
 
Martes said:
If the time frame is narrowed to those years. Which we are not totally sure, are we?
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The refit of Hermes at HM Dockyard Devonport 1964-66 was preceded by the refit of Eagle at HM Dockyard Devonport 1959-64. The way you wrote it made me think that you wanted the dockyard that refitted Hermes to convert one of the Colossus/Majestic class into an escort cruiser.
Martes said:
But how replacing the work performed on Triumph affects Eagle?
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Triumph was converted to a heavy repair ship at HM Dockyard Portsmouth and it was announced early in 1956 in the 1956-57 Navy Estimates.

According to Jane's 1967-68.
  • She was converted at Portsmouth from 01.01.58 to 07.01.65 (date of recommissioning).
  • The conversion cost £10,200,000.
  • And that Triumph left Portsmouth for Far East on 01.02.65.
Marriott wrote on Page 43 of "Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers 1945-1990" that the work on conversion was held up for several years and did not start until 1960, but does agree that she recommissioned in her new role on 7th January 1965 and sailed for the Far East the next month.
 
Rule of cool said:
The fleet manager in me wants to know the plan, which these days I find more interesting than dreaming up how to fit Sea Slug into an aircraft carrier.
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What I had in mind was exactly the implementation of the Escort Cruiser concept, but this time on existing hulls. This situation could've been reached in multiple ways - from further development of the aforementioned missile cruiser conversions down to replacing Tiger and Blake with Leviathan and Triumph (or whichever hull was in better condition). And then, when completed, they would've made very nice Harrier carriers on top of initial ASW capabilities. Like Invincible a decade or two earlier.
 
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NOMISYRRUC said:
The refit of Hermes at HM Dockyard Devonport 1964-66 was preceded by the refit of Eagle at HM Dockyard Devonport 1959-64. The way you wrote it made me think that you wanted the dockyard that refitted Hermes convert one of the Colossus/Majestic class into an escort cruiser.
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Yes, belatedly I realized it was about Hermes. :)

Well, one could've postponed Manxman instead.

But it's all dependent on the time frame and the scope of the program. If we talk about conversion of 4 ships to create a focused AAW/ASW force, it's one thing. One experimental conversion (Leviathan, tentatively) is another.
 
Martes said:
Yes, belatedly I realized it was about Hermes. :)

Well, one could've postponed Manxman instead.

But it's all dependent on the time frame and the scope of the program. If we talk about conversion of 4 ships to create a focused AAW/ASW force, it's one thing. One experimental conversion (Leviathan, tentatively) is another.
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According to Jane's 167-68 Manxman's conversion was at HM Dockyard Chatham 1960-63 at a cost of £1,000,000. She recommissioned on 23.02.63.
 
While we are at that, how much did Eagle refit cost? Between that and Triumph's 10 million it could give some cost estimate.
 
Martes said:
While we are at that, how much did Eagle refit cost? Between that and Triumph's 10 million it could give some cost estimate.
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IIRC Hobbs, Friedman and maybe Brown have estimated costs of the early 1960s Escort Cruiser designs.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
The "big ticket" items (if that's the right expression) in the first half of the 1960s were:
Eagle's modernisation.​
Hermes' first big refit (1964-66).​
Albion's conversion into a commando carrier.​
Bulwark's conversion into a commando carrier.​
Triumph's conversion into a heavy repair ship.​
Manxman's conversion into a minesweeper support ship.​
Modernising 2 submarine depot ships so they could support nuclear powered submarines.​
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Which brings me a different question. In 1958 construction of PA 59 was supposed to cost 33 billion old franks. That's $78.5 million or or 28 million pounds at then exchange rates. Verdun was supposed to be 48 billion hence $114 million and 40.8 million pounds I understand the RN estimation for a 42,000t in 1960-62 run at 46.5 million.

Given these figures how practical is doing extensive modernization of either Majestics or Centaurs as opposed to building a new ship which presumably would have both lower maintenance/refit costs and likely require at least a somewhat smaller crew? if you calculate total lifecycle costs?

Has anyone estimated how much a newly built 20,000t or 27,000t carrier would had cost in 1960?
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
IIRC Hobbs, Friedman and maybe Brown have estimated costs of the early 1960s Escort Cruiser designs.
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Brown lists 30-36 range for building, 38 with VSTOL capability.

Scratch that, it's for later designs and probably different rate of pound.

Early 60's studies with Sea Slug around 20 million for the largest of them.
 
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Lascaris said:
Which brings me a different question. In 1958 construction of PA 59 was supposed to cost 33 billion old franks. That's $78.5 million or or 28 million pounds at then exchange rates. Verdun was supposed to be 48 billion hence $114 million and 40.8 million pounds I understand the RN estimation for a 42,000t in 1960-62 run at 46.5 million.

Given these figures how practical is doing extensive modernization of either Majestics or Centaurs as opposed to building a new ship which presumably would have both lower maintenance/refit costs and likely require at least a somewhat smaller crew? if you calculate total lifecycle costs?

Has anyone estimated how much a newly built 20,000t or 27,000t carrier would had cost in 1960?
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Building new ships is what I want to do, but @Martes doesn't and because it's his thread it's his choice.
 
Lascaris said:
Which brings me a different question. In 1958 construction of PA 59 was supposed to cost 33 billion old franks. That's $78.5 million or or 28 million pounds at then exchange rates. Verdun was supposed to be 48 billion hence $114 million and 40.8 million pounds I understand the RN estimation for a 42,000t in 1960-62 run at 46.5 million.

Given these figures how practical is doing extensive modernization of either Majestics or Centaurs as opposed to building a new ship which presumably would have both lower maintenance/refit costs and likely require at least a somewhat smaller crew? if you calculate total lifecycle costs?

Has anyone estimated how much a newly built 20,000t or 27,000t carrier would had cost in 1960?
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The best that I can do is.
  • Hermes displaced 23,000 tons was and completed 1959 cost £17.5 million, which unless @EwenS knows better (and he often does) was spread over the 15 years since her laying down in 1944.
  • Victorious displaced 30,530 tons after her 1950-58 rebuild, which cost £20 million. Said rebuild was so extensive that she was virtually a new ship.
  • Eagle displaced 36,800 tons when she was completed in 1951 and it has been said that a new ships with the same or better characteristics would have taken as long to build as her OTL modernisation and cost as much as her OTL modernisation that was from 1959 to 1964 at a cost of £31 million. However, I don't remember where I read that so it might be a false memory.
 
Lascaris said:
Which brings me a different question. In 1958 construction of PA 59 was supposed to cost 33 billion old franks. That's $78.5 million or or 28 million pounds at then exchange rates. Verdun was supposed to be 48 billion hence $114 million and 40.8 million pounds I understand the RN estimation for a 42,000t in 1960-62 run at 46.5 million.

Given these figures how practical is doing extensive modernization of either Majestics or Centaurs as opposed to building a new ship which presumably would have both lower maintenance/refit costs and likely require at least a somewhat smaller crew? if you calculate total lifecycle costs?
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AFAIK Verdun was PA58. What was PA59? FWIW £40.8 million for Verdun looks like a bargain to me.

Do you have the building costs for Clemenceau, Foch, Colbert and De Grasse too?
 
PA58 is Verdun, PA59 in 1959 (d'uh) was a last ditch attempt by the MN to get a third aircraft carrier but as a Clemenceau / Foch clone to make it less expensive.
 
Archibald said:
PA58 is Verdun, PA59 in 1959 (d'uh) was a last ditch attempt by the MN to get a third aircraft carrier but as a Clemenceau / Foch clone to make it less expensive.
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So to make it easier to read.
PA58 - 48 billion old francs = $114.0 million = £40.8 million​
PA59 - 33 billion old francs = $ 78.5 million = £28.0 million​

PA58 = Verdun and PA59 = third Clemenceau.
 
Martes said:
While we are at that, how much did Eagle refit cost? Between that and Triumph's 10 million it could give some cost estimate.
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NOMISYRRUC said:
£31 million.
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My instinctive estimation at this point was 20 for refit.

Martes said:
Early 60's studies with Sea Slug around 20 million for the largest of them.
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...which is more or less the same as building a new one. Not sure about the required time, but most likely also the same.

So the advantage may be more of a political nature (it is easier to push a modernization through than building a new unit, and more difficult to cancel if the work has already begun on existing hull) than anything else.

Still, I see a modernized Majestic as a much more capable unit than Blake/Tiger conversions.
 
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Archibald said:
PA58 is Verdun, PA59 in 1959 (d'uh) was a last ditch attempt by the MN to get a third aircraft carrier but as a Clemenceau / Foch clone to make it less expensive.
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I always suspected that the number in the designation of post-war French warships like T47 referred to the year they were designed/ordered. So why was the small aircraft carrier in the late 1940s PA28? Why wasn't it PA46? Especially we had the T47 destroyers in the late 1940s.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
So to make it easier to read.
PA58 - 48 billion old francs = $114.0 million = £40.8 million​
PA59 - 33 billion old francs = $ 78.5 million = £28.0 million​

PA58 = Verdun and PA59 = third Clemenceau.
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Slightly larger 35,000t full load third Clemanceau but yes.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
I always suspected that the number in the designation of post-war French warships like T47 referred to the year they were designed/ordered. So why was the small aircraft carrier in the late 1940s PA28? Why wasn't it PA46? Especially we had the T47 destroyers in the late 1940s.
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Nope, there is no logic to be found.
 

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