Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

EmoBirb said:
I wouldn't say so. On this forum alone you can find various advanced studies that never had an associated demonstrator produced but still hold significant value on their own. One of the more recently relevant examples being the Northrop DP-21 aka the Christmas Tree Fighter. NATF-23 is another study/proposal that never left the drawing board yet had substantial relevance for Northrop Grumman as a company. The BAE Replica was also not a flying prototype, yet BAE deemed it crucial.
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Northrop produced multiple demonstrators and operational stealth aircraft, too. Studies exist in that context.
BAE study may be crucial/important, at their level. It's just not the same level.
But BAE did design and produce non-stealth aircraft, built on some of the key technologies that enable LO.

Germany did an experimental drone. This is something, but not a very high starting bar.
Regardless, can it be done? Yes; fighters aren't magic. But the longer the procrastination, the later the result. The reason Germany is so screwed is exactly not doing it for many decades. Airbus Defense is de facto a conglomerate of old&famous German military aircraft manufacturers. But, at this point, it has only historical value.
 
Sandboxx recently uploaded a new video concerning the new Block-4 F-35s being delivered without radars installed * (But with ballast instead):


F-35s are now being delivered to the United States without their radar systems installed, and there’s a good chance these jets could be flying blind until 2028. So, let’s talk about why this is happening and why it isn’t a problem for foreign customers.
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IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Radar is complex; take everything we discuss with a grain of salt.
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Read Kris Osborn’s “A look at the J-20 AESA radar” here: https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Port...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...er=siqvLrFMR-FhjZGGdG4r0A%3D%3D&v=6FdMp7B38Xo
Buy “Introduction to Airborne Radar” by George W. Stimson here: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-A...
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* I was going to post this last week but I ended up spending two days in hospital with a sudden medical issue.
 
NMaude said:
Sandboxx recently uploaded a new video concerning the new Block-4 F-35s being delivered without radars installed * (But with ballast instead):






* I was going to post this last week but I ended up spending two days in hospital with a sudden medical issue.
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At least this radar will never dysfonctionned.
 
I fail to see how that's a big deal really, some of the most advanced jets in the world fly with interim engines for years. Now the most recent Block of one such jet comes temporarily without the radar. Arguably the most advanced radar ever fitted to an aircraft in the western hemisphere. Of course there are delays and teething issues with such a piece of kit. Radar being, just like engines, the golden discipline in the military industry. One also shouldn't forget that there have been several hundred F-35s delivered thus far, with their radars. Metrics that outside the US only a single country can match.

Not playing Lockheeds advocate here, it just shows the ridiculous perceptions some have.
 
A bit like the RAF Tornado F-2s that had similar ballast instead of the radar too when they had problems with their radars, s I would think that the F-35 Block-4 will eventually get the new radar once they sort the problems out with it?
 
Interesting, what caused Americans not to deliver the corresponding radar on time?
 
If I understand correctly, they won't be able to get suitable radar until at least 2028? Maybe it would be better for them to temporarily find some other radar as a substitute? Having so many F-35s just sitting idle seems a bit of a waste.
 
2028 for a new radar? That is going to be rather awkward to say the least What will happen with the jets that have the ballast installed after the new radar is available? Will they get the upgrade then?
 
SUPER=BUG said:
If I understand correctly, they won't be able to get suitable radar until at least 2028? Maybe it would be better for them to temporarily find some other radar as a substitute? Having so many F-35s just sitting idle seems a bit of a waste.
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That's the whole point, new bulkhead can't accept AN/APG-81. Otherwise, this wouldn't be much of a story, as AN/APG-81 is still comfortably around world-level solution.
But now they have to wait for the AN/APG-85 in a perfect storm between the readiness of the radar itself, energy/cooling, and software.
 
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EmoBirb said:
One also shouldn't forget that there have been several hundred F-35s delivered thus far, with their radars.
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This is going to create a pretty large fleet of 150+ non-combat capable F-35s in US service... assuming NG are able to deliver APG-85s on time in 2028. And US budget docs imply that it will take at least 2 years (i.e. 2030) to install radars on all these aircraft and resorb the backlog...
 
SUPER=BUG said:
If I understand correctly, they won't be able to get suitable radar until at least 2028? Maybe it would be better for them to temporarily find some other radar as a substitute? Having so many F-35s just sitting idle seems a bit of a waste.
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They can't because the program office running the program chose not to fund a bulkhead design that could accommodate both APG-85 and APG-81 to hedge against the former's delayed entry into service. In its wisdom, the program office also chose to negotiate the development and production of the APG-85 directly with the radar OEM (Northrop Grumman) as opposed to the Lockheed negotiated air vehicle contract that included all sensors and helmet (minus the engine). Because of this the service cannot refuse delivery of any aircraft like it did when Lockheed failed to deliver TR-3 jets that the government signed a contract for until adequate level of TR-3 maturity was demonstrated, and the services could accept jets to clear the backlog in Fort Worth. That option does not exist now.
 
The USAF should ultimately send them back to Lockheed until they get the radar sorted and not order anymore in the mean time.
 
FighterJock said:
The USAF should ultimately send them back to Lockheed until they get the radar sorted and not order anymore in the mean time.
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The F-35 is not a fleet of 500+ individual airframes. It's a program that generates a certain number of deployable squadrons. If adding airframes (even without radars) increases the number of squadrons that can be deployed, then continuing to order frames makes sense.
 
Not James Stockdale said:
The F-35 is not a fleet of 500+ individual airframes. It's a program that generates a certain number of deployable squadrons. If adding airframes (even without radars) increases the number of squadrons that can be deployed, then continuing to order frames makes sense.
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The situation is a big mess. But Fat Amy without her radar is more aware of the battle space than most other aircraft With one. Her remaining sensors, and her wingman's radar - as well as other battle force sensor nodes - contribute to a remarkably complete tactical picture for her pilot.
She might even be in the vanguard of the attack since she generates no active radar signature.
 
Titus said:
The situation is a big mess. But Fat Amy without her radar is more aware of the battle space than most other aircraft With one. Her remaining sensors, and her wingman's radar - as well as other battle force sensor nodes - contribute to a remarkably complete tactical picture for her pilot.
She might even be in the vanguard of the attack since she generates no active radar signature.
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Or she might be one of nearly a hundred F-35s at Luke Air Force Base doing conversion training for pilots straight out of the T-38.
 
WatcherZero said:
Head of Lockheed Martin Australia shares his vision that the Australian F-35 sustainment hub 'The Air Power Precinct' in New South Wales (Williamtown outside Newcastle) could one day be a Global Maintenance Hub.

https://australianaviation.com.au/2026/07/australia-could-house-global-f-35-maintenance-hub/

I mean its just an ideal location for partner logistics isn't it.... what with the next nearest user being the 8 in Singapore 6,300km away. :rolleyes:
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You can't fix stupid.
 
FighterJock said:
The USAF should ultimately send them back to Lockheed until they get the radar sorted and not order anymore in the mean time.
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They cannot do this contractually. Lockheed did not sell them the AN/APG-85 unlike the An/APG-81. The F-35 JPO contracted directly with Northrop Grumman and supplies the radar to Lockheed as government furnished equipment. I suppose the services could send them to the JPO HQ's or to Congress that has decided to keep the JPO alive all these years.
 
Isn't LM in the process of designing and manufacturing a new nose radar-bulkhead design that can mount either radar?
 
WatcherZero said:
I thought they said they weren't doing that because it would take them two years to design, I may be wrong.
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The reporting on that suggests that it could take up to two years to design, qualify, and implement this bulkhead across the production program and retrofit the fleet. Lockheed is not going to do this on its own since they are not the ones on contract for the new radar. That is a government decision to fund such a re-design. Ideally, this should have been taken as a hedge on day-1 itself but as is evident from the long history of the program, the JPO doesn't really manage risk very well.
 
FighterJock said:
The USAF should ultimately send them back to Lockheed until they get the radar sorted and not order anymore in the mean time.
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Well, that could cause bigger problems when the line is stopped to the point people are shuffled off to other projects or let go.

DoW: "Hey we want to order more now. When can you have them?"
LM: "Uhm. . .about that."
 
WatcherZero said:
Head of Lockheed Martin Australia shares his vision that the Australian F-35 sustainment hub 'The Air Power Precinct' in New South Wales (Williamtown outside Newcastle) could one day be a Global Maintenance Hub.

https://australianaviation.com.au/2026/07/australia-could-house-global-f-35-maintenance-hub/

I mean its just an ideal location for partner logistics isn't it.... what with the next nearest user being the 8 in Singapore 6,300km away. :rolleyes:
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I know Jeremy King - he is a very capable guy and knows what he is talking about.

As to F-35 Sustainment hubs, Australia already has a MRO depot for the F135 engine that has been operating for about 7yrs. It works on engine modules from every current F-35 operator including all US services. There is also an established airframe depot for the F-35 at Williamtown/Newcastle which is what he is talking about here. A number of sub-components are also supported in-country, and not just for the RAAF but all operators.

To claim this can’t happen because “the next nearest user being the 8 in Singapore 6,300km away” is extremely ignorant.
 
Who is going to send whole aircraft to Australia for overhaul? No one. The logistics are crazy.
The TAE Aerospace F135 engine maintenance depot in Australia which is in Brisbane a considerable distance from Newcastle commenced initial depot operations supporting P&W in 2022 not 7 years ago (They had done individual fan or power module rebuilds before that), It was ordered in 2018 to support the RAAF maintenance requirements. But the centre while licensed to work on all types is focused on supporting Australian engines, they are all sent to RAAF Amberley for testing after maintenance work as it lacks its own testing facilities. Heck even the RAAF doesn't train on engines there, they built a separate engine trainer in Williamstown so they didn't have to travel 750km away. Japan opened its own MRO engine depot in 2023 run by IHI while RTX subsidary Eagle Services is standing up one in Singapore from this year to coincide with the first deliveries, where it already works on other engine types.

So really while in 2018 it might have been envisioned as the sole Asian engine hub, practicalities encouraged the other users to do it themselves.
 
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I too do not think that it is even practical to even think about transporting whole aircraft to Australia.
 
WatcherZero said:
Who is going to send whole aircraft to Australia for overhaul? No one. The logistics are crazy.
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FighterJock said:
I too do not think that it is even practical to even think about transporting whole aircraft to Australia.
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And yet organisations, military and civilian send aircraft of all types to different countries all the time for servicing.
 
WatcherZero said:
The TAE Aerospace F135 engine maintenance depot in Australia which is in Brisbane a considerable distance from Newcastle commenced initial depot operations supporting P&W in 2022 not 7 years ago (They had done individual fan or power module rebuilds before that), It was ordered in 2018 to support the RAAF maintenance requirements. But the centre while licensed to work on all types is focused on supporting Australian engines, they are all sent to RAAF Amberley for testing after maintenance work as it lacks its own testing facilities. Heck even the RAAF doesn't train on engines there, they built a separate engine trainer in Williamstown so they didn't have to travel 750km away. Japan opened its own MRO engine depot in 2023 run by IHI while RTX subsidary Eagle Services is standing up one in Singapore from this year to coincide with the first deliveries, where it already works on other engine types.

So really while in 2018 it might have been envisioned as the sole Asian engine hub, practicalities encouraged the other users to do it themselves.
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As someone who has a very strong understanding of the organisations involved and their exact capabilities and the history and current arrangements involved here it is quite amusing to read this bunch of inaccuracies and misconceptions.
 

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