Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

missile_man said:
That's a new one to me.
Click to expand...

It's proposed at the moment...part of the UK's forthcoming Tranche 2 order of 27 aircraft. Reportedly, the 12 x F-35A will be used for training due to higher availability rates...and cheaper to run...

But in reality its part of the RAF plan to hobble the F-35B fleet...and a political sop to Trump around nuclear delivery. The idea that we can use the 12 x F-35A for training with the OCU and simultaneously clear them for nuclear weapons delivery on an operational level is pure fantasy. It's quite literally madness and wouldn't pass the most basic review....the F-35A will clearly end up as an orphan fleet and costing more...particularly if we have to purchase other non UK weapons for their exclusive use...

Todays latest wheeze is the MoD's intention to limit the UK's F-35B purchases to 62 aircraft....everything beyond that will be F-35A. Now according to MoD that will be the remainder of the initially planned 138 aircraft, that they're still lying/fantasising about....however Tranche 2 is now unlikely to be fully delivered until 2035 (following an answer to the Parliamentary Accounts Committee)....which means it drops exactly when GCAP is arriving....there is zero chance of any UK F-35 buy (except for F-35B) when GCAP arrives....

Someone needs to get a grip of MoD, and fast, because there are people running around with insane agendas at present...
 
timmymagic said:
There are NO powered air to ground munitions integrated and operational on any F-35 variant....10 years and 3 months past its IOC with a user (USMC). And there won't be until late 2026 at the earliest (but would anyone sane bet on that?).

JSM may have been delivered to Norway as operational weapons....in their storage containers....but it is not integrated, cleared and operational on F-35A yet...if anyone thinks that it is....please forward video of a live weapon being dropped from an F-35 and transitioning to powered flight....because I can guarantee that if Kongsberg had actually managed that they would publish it immediately...

I believe this is the list of currently cleared stores for F-35....if anyone thinks anything is missing let me know...

Gun
Internal Gun - A variant only
External Gun - B and C variants

Air to Air missiles
AIM-9X - All variants
AIM-120C/D - All variants
AIM-132 Asraam - B variant only

Nuclear Freefall Munition
B-61/12 - A variant only

Freefall Munitions
Paveway IV - B variant only
GBU-12 - All variants
GBU-31 JDAM - All variants
GBU-32 JDAM - All variants

Gliding Munitions
SDBI - All variants
JSOW - C Variant only (this might have been cleared on A variant as well for international users, but I've not established it 100%).

Other Stores
Baggage Pod (internal only) - A variant only (no idea why this hasn't been cleared for B and C though)

That's all folks....clearance on one variant does not mean that it is available on all (although clearly easier to integrate as a result)...and just because a munition has been test fired does not mean its actually operational....

There are obviously munitions on the way. SDBII will probably be next, but won't be fully operational until TR-3 is combat capable, which is likely at present to be September 2026. LJDAM and JSM are the likely next candidates for going operational beyond that...

Worth noting that if an integrated weapon requires TR-3 then the vast majority of users will not be able to use the weapon until they receive new F-35 with TR-3 built in or upgrade their existing fleets...in Norway's case with JSM it might mean that only a handful will be able to actually carry and fire JSM even when TR-3 is cleared for combat (cSeptember 2026 in current planning). Norway received its final 2 of 52 F-35A in April 2025 so will have at least 2 aircraft that can use JSM....until the rest are upgraded which will take years....

UK commentators often think the fact that Spear and Meteor have been waiting for an age, and now won't arrive until 2032 (originally it was 2024, so a dismal 8 year minimum delay), is due to the US deliberately holding back on their integration to favour US munitions....there might be a very small slither of truth in that....but....its also clear as day that the US, and everyone else, is also waiting on munitions to arrive....I suspect with as much frustration as the UK.
Click to expand...
I believe NG has the SiAW under development with the USAF. Currently, the only drop test has been performed using an F-16 last year, but it's future state will initially be for the F-35.

Planned expansion for the F-15E/EX, B-21
 
missile_man said:
I believe NG has the SiAW under development with the USAF. Currently, the only drop test has been performed using an F-16 last year, but it's future state will initially be for the F-35.
Click to expand...

Yep. LRASM, JAGM, AARGM-ER, JASSM, Meteor, Spear....all planned....but years away, every delay/replan in TR-3 and Block IV pushes it further away....and remember....only the TR-3/Block 4 jets will be able to use any of those.....so the first c1,000 F-35 will all need upgrading to be able to use them....which will also take many years.

For an example (which as of today is out of date)....the UK's not massive fleet of F-35B could not all be at the same Block IV standard, even if the upgrades were ordered today (and if the upgrades existed and were actually ready) until 2032/33.....todays announcement has effectively made that 2035...and thats with no further delays...
 
jsport said:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LReZ4ejDjpw


..might get banned..hesitated for a month in posting.
Click to expand...
Why would you get banned? Or, are you just being facetious? ;)

I love Ward. I sub to his channel. That video was a lot to take in. I work at LM MFC but have quite a few friends who either work at LM Aeronautics in Fort Worth or used to and are now with MFC. The stories I've been told about the kind of pressure placed on those guys would make me want to quit. I've visited the production line a few times and even got to observe an F-35B perform a flight test including hover, short off, vertical take off and landings from the LM tower and it still just blows my mind. We've all seen the videos but seeing it up close and personal just can't be described. I got to meet and talk to a few LM test pilots, saw the helmet up close (didn't get to touch it, though).

They all say the same thing about the aircraft. If they ever had to go into battle, there's no other plane they'd want to be in, including the F-22 simply because of the survivability.

I'm glad the US has the kind of accountability like the GAO reports and the ability for us all to discriminate and discuss things like this. I just wish more people could understand how hard it is to develop and build these kind of weapons.

The amount of quality control we put into it is staggering. One tiny scratch on a machined part that only becomes visible after it was anodized creates a process for root cause corrective action adding weeks on that one part to be approved for use.

Anyway, great video. Thanks for the post!
 
timmymagic said:
Yep. LRASM, JAGM, AARGM-ER, JASSM, Meteor, Spear....all planned....but years away, every delay/replan in TR-3 and Block IV pushes it further away....and remember....only the TR-3/Block 4 jets will be able to use any of those.....so the first c1,000 F-35 will all need upgrading to be able to use them....which will also take many years.

For an example (which as of today is out of date)....the UK's not massive fleet of F-35B could not all be at the same Block IV standard, even if the upgrades were ordered today (and if the upgrades existed and were actually ready) until 2032/33.....todays announcement has effectively made that 2035...and thats with no further delays...
Click to expand...
We'll get there.
 
timmymagic said:
There are NO powered air to ground munitions integrated and operational on any F-35 variant....10 years and 3 months past its IOC with a user (USMC).
Click to expand...
It's almost like the users prioritised their weapon integration requirements and the contractor followed that... :eek: There isn't infinite people and facilities

NB it took 16 years past IOC to integrate the first powered air to ground munition on Eurofighter. Not that I'm sure this is a good measure anyway.

We're also now talking a lot about integration of weapons which didn't even exist as concepts at the time F-35 SDD / Block 3 was contracted - it's not surprising that these are in Block 4 instead.

timmymagic said:
Reportedly, the 12 x F-35A will be used for training due to higher availability rates...and cheaper to run...
Click to expand...
Obviously it's a terrible idea when MOD actually identifies a plan that reduces near term costs and increases performance and capability.
 
joshjosh said:
BAN THIS MAN!
Jk. This particular GAO report has already been discussed here, feel free to go back and read through starting here:


Ward simply discusses the GAO report in his video.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the post,
not having viewed ur post further proves more how little this particular thread/and this plane is a priority for some people.
Happened to come across .. and a summary which dosen't take much time or effort is preferred.
 
Forest Green said:

The low-risk way to give the F-35 more cooling for advanced avionics without starting over​

breakingdefense.com

The low-risk way to give the F-35 more cooling for advanced avionics without starting over - Breaking Defense

As it flies today, the fighter doesn’t have the cooling capacity to maintain deterrence as the battlefield evolves.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
Click to expand...
Interesting article.

At first, I misinterpreted this statement. I thought they were implying that Lockheed won the JSF contract, in part, based on the reduction of 1000 lbs:

Honeywell integrated those 14 functions into the single PTMS unit back in the mid-2000s, which allowed F-35 prime Lockheed Martin to cut aircraft weight by about 1,000 pounds and which played a role in the contract award, according to Honeywell.

LM was awarded the JSF contract in 2001. Took me a few passes to and head scratches to realize that Honeywell didn't even receive their contact with LM until the mid-2000s. :head slap:
 
red admiral said:
It's almost like the users prioritised their weapon integration requirements and the contractor followed that... :eek: There isn't infinite people and facilities

NB it took 16 years past IOC to integrate the first powered air to ground munition on Eurofighter. Not that I'm sure this is a good measure anyway.

We're also now talking a lot about integration of weapons which didn't even exist as concepts at the time F-35 SDD / Block 3 was contracted - it's not surprising that these are in Block 4 instead.
Click to expand...

From when they actually decided to put a powered A2G munition on Typhoon to when it went operational was 3 years....

The reason why we're talking about integration of weapons that didn't even exist as concepts at the time of F-35/SDD was contracted is because its taken that long that weapons that were on the original list have ceased to be in service and been replaced in role.....just look at the original F-35 SDD list....we wouldn't be waiting for LRASM and JSM...if Harpoon had been integrated, or JAGM to arrive if Maverick and Brimstone had been integrated....

And weapons have been removed from that list, like Brimstone, Storm Shadow etc. precisely in response to the delays in integration, in order to free up time to get other weapons integrated....which still haven't arrived....
 
timmymagic said:
From when they actually decided to put a powered A2G munition on Typhoon to when it went operational was 3 years....
Click to expand...
Back to my first point. The integration of weapons is prioritised by the users. They've actively chosen to not contract to integrate some weapons given limited resources.

It's ridiculous that F-35 is being held to standard that isn't met by any other aircraft.
 
I wonder if anyone can help me. I'm looking for real, honest, definitive numbers for the maximum amount of vertical lift thrust coming out of the F-35B's LiftFan in front and the rotating nozzle in the back, when the aircraft is hovering. I've seen all kinds of different ones from very early in the program when things were in flux, but I'm having a surprising amount of difficulty finding what the numbers are now that production and service have been going on for awhile. Anyone know for sure?
 
missile_man said:
The stories I've been told about the kind of pressure placed on those guys would make me want to quit.
Click to expand...
Surely, they were presented with a borderline impossible task, this task being to please three different branches with a unified design in three derivatives. And ultimately they did a damn good job balancing all the different requirements. It's not flawless and there will always be huge controversy attached to it's name, but whoever still doubts the F-35 in 2025 hasn't kept up with it's development and deployment.
 
stever_sl said:
I wonder if anyone can help me. I'm looking for real, honest, definitive numbers for the maximum amount of vertical lift thrust coming out of the F-35B's LiftFan in front and the rotating nozzle in the back, when the aircraft is hovering. I've seen all kinds of different ones from very early in the program when things were in flux, but I'm having a surprising amount of difficulty finding what the numbers are now that production and service have been going on for awhile. Anyone know for sure?
Click to expand...
bend engine nozzle 18000 lb
lift fan 20000 lb
wing tubes 3900 lbf
=> 41900 lb
 
SlothmanAllen said:
If they can upgrade the capacity as easily as they are claiming, why wasn't it done in the past?
Click to expand...

Quite.
Build it and they will come...
No-one is ever going to turn down additional cooling, particularly if its going to help with engine life...

But also...if its so necessary for Block IV (and it is)...and has a minimum of 4 years, rising to 6, to get to the full 80kw solution....and we're almost in 2026....why isn't it on contract now?
 
Seragina said:
bend engine nozzle 18000 lb
lift fan 20000 lb
wing tubes 3900 lbf
=> 41900 lb
Click to expand...
The fuzzy bit is that RR says the LiftFan is "capable of generating more than 20,000 lbf of thrust" and I was hoping to find out if there's a more definitive number. There may not be, and if not I'll just work with the 20k lb. Thanks!
 
stever_sl said:
The fuzzy bit is that RR says the LiftFan is "capable of generating more than 20,000 lbf of thrust" and I was hoping to find out if there's a more definitive number. There may not be, and if not I'll just work with the 20k lb. Thanks!
Click to expand...
The lift fan may have the capacity to develop more than 20K thrust, given enough shaft horsepower input. But as part of the F-35B / F135-600 propulsion system it is provided enough shaft power to develop approximately 20K lift thrust as part of the balanced lift distribution. The control system is constantly modulating the lift fan, exhaust, and roll post thrust levels to maintain pitch / roll control and the total vertical lift required for altitude control.
 
timmymagic said:
There are NO powered air to ground munitions integrated and operational on any F-35 variant....10 years and 3 months past its IOC with a user (USMC). And there won't be until late 2026 at the earliest (but would anyone sane bet on that?).
Click to expand...
Misawa will be transitioning to the F-35A. I'm assuming they will continue with the SEAD mission. Perhaps using SDBs until the SiAW is procured and integrated?
 
B2Blain said:
Misawa will be transitioning to the F-35A. I'm assuming they will continue with the SEAD mission. Perhaps using SDBs until the SiAW is procured and integrated?
Click to expand...

Probably.

But that also illustrates some of the current issues....Operators are retiring older aircraft in favour of F-35, but many of those older aircraft had more advanced/more capable munitions integrated and available to them. So they get a capability uplift with F-35, and in some rare cases even an availability increase, but simultaneously they lose capability in terms of weapons available and types. Not a problem perhaps for the US, they've still got F-16, F-15 and F-18 alongside F-35.....but for air forces with a single combat type that is a real, and underappreciated, issue...particularly as those weapons might represent considerable parts of their overall stockpile.
 
red admiral said:
It's almost like the users prioritised their weapon integration requirements and the contractor followed that... :eek: There isn't infinite people and facilities

NB it took 16 years past IOC to integrate the first powered air to ground munition on Eurofighter. Not that I'm sure this is a good measure anyway.

We're also now talking a lot about integration of weapons which didn't even exist as concepts at the time F-35 SDD / Block 3 was contracted - it's not surprising that these are in Block 4 instead.


Obviously it's a terrible idea when MOD actually identifies a plan that reduces near term costs and increases performance and capability.
Click to expand...

2007 IOC of Typhoon for first operators, Typhoon fully operational with P3E incl. Brimstone II and Storm Shadow in 2018, that's 11 years in my books. Still a long time though, but what matters here is, when was the integration of these weapons contracted and that was in 2014 (P3E contract signature). So the more appropriate question is, when was the integration of specific weapons on the F-35 contracted and what were the projected timescales for their introduction...
 
timmymagic said:
But that also illustrates some of the current issues....Operators are retiring older aircraft in favour of F-35, but many of those older aircraft had more advanced/more capable munitions integrated and available to them. So they get a capability uplift with F-35, and in some rare cases even an availability increase, but simultaneously they lose capability in terms of weapons available and types. Not a problem perhaps for the US, they've still got F-16, F-15 and F-18 alongside F-35.....but for air forces with a single combat type that is a real, and underappreciated, issue...particularly as those weapons might represent considerable parts of their overall stockpile.
Click to expand...
I don't think that is a valid concern. The advantages the F-35 provides over existing platforms is so great when conducting SEAD/DEAD most operations are DEAD anyway because the platform will operate and employ weapons that result in destruction and not just suppression.

Of existing or future operators of an all F-35 fleet only Finland and the Dutch have ordered AARGM with no other aircraft to deploy it. With both being NATO nations they will have no issues sharing their stocks with other NATO members if required and until the F-35 integration is certified.
 
joshjosh said:
Western Museum of Flight

10/27/2025

No Where to Go but Up

The Man who invented the Vertical Lift Fan for the Joint Srike Fighter.
Dr. Paul Bevilaqua, Chief Engineer of the Lockheed Skunk Works (ret).

View: https://youtu.be/McwqjUoNhAE
Click to expand...
Dr. Bevilaqua stated that the Marine Corps was highly influential in the decision to go with the shaft-driven lift fan (SDLF) configuration rather than a separate lift engine (Lift-Plus-Lift/Cruise, or LPLC), mainly out of maintenance and logistical concerns. Personally I'm not sure if this is really a valid argument, but regardless, aside from political factors, has there been a technical evaluation/formal trade studies of the merits of LPLC versus SDLF? The LPLC concepts (McAir and Northrop) didn't make it to the CDA demonstrator stage.
 
joshjosh said:
US administration potentially approving a sale of 48 F-35s to Saudi Arabia
Click to expand...
Would be a great replacement for the Tornado fleet which has got to be getting difficult to sustain. Production slots will be the issue, might not arrive until the early 2030s best case.

The other interesting offset will be what Israel is offered to compensate, maybe early access to F-47 by way of US aid?
 
Ozair said:
The other interesting offset will be what Israel is offered to compensate, maybe early access to F-47 by way of US aid?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that the US is as concerned about 'compensating' Israel vis a vis the Saudi's as much as it was....the Saudi's are not seen as a threat to the Israeli's anymore.
 
Ozair said:
I don't think that is a valid concern. The advantages the F-35 provides over existing platforms is so great when conducting SEAD/DEAD most operations are DEAD anyway because the platform will operate and employ weapons that result in destruction and not just suppression.
Click to expand...

But do you really be opening the bomb bay doors 20km from an S-400 battery....because all you've got is free fall munitions....I suspect if asked most pilots would say....errr....no thanks....

Ozair said:
Of existing or future operators of an all F-35 fleet only Finland and the Dutch have ordered AARGM with no other aircraft to deploy it. With both being NATO nations they will have no issues sharing their stocks with other NATO members if required and until the F-35 integration is certified.
Click to expand...

Thats not exactly how declared NATO stockpiles work...but I'm sure the Finns and Dutch are buying AARGM just so that others can shoot them....how many AARGM capable jets are around in European NATO at present? How many will there be over the next 5-7 years?
 
timmymagic said:
But do you really be opening the bomb bay doors 20km from an S-400 battery....because all you've got is free fall munitions....I suspect if asked most pilots would say....errr....no thanks....
Click to expand...
What's the engagement sequence time for an S400? For certain more than it takes to open the door, eject an SDB and then close the door.
timmymagic said:
Thats not exactly how declared NATO stockpiles work...
Click to expand...
In a conflict NATO works how NATO needs to work.

timmymagic said:
but I'm sure the Finns and Dutch are buying AARGM just so that others can shoot them....
Click to expand...
No and that wasn't my statement, the weapon is being integrated on F-35. All Finnish and Dutch jets are Blk 4 TR-3, just need the cleared software.

timmymagic said:
how many AARGM capable jets are around in European NATO at present? How many will there be over the next 5-7 years?
Click to expand...
Tornado ECR integration is about finished and more available when F-35 integration occurs.
 
The UK should transfer the RAF/RN F-35B training to Italy as soon as practically possible GTX.
 
timmymagic said:
There are NO powered air to ground munitions integrated and operational on any F-35 variant....10 years and 3 months past its IOC with a user (USMC). And there won't be until late 2026 at the earliest (but would anyone sane bet on that?).

JSM may have been delivered to Norway as operational weapons....in their storage containers....but it is not integrated, cleared and operational on F-35A yet...if anyone thinks that it is....please forward video of a live weapon being dropped from an F-35 and transitioning to powered flight....because I can guarantee that if Kongsberg had actually managed that they would publish it immediately...

I believe this is the list of currently cleared stores for F-35....if anyone thinks anything is missing let me know...
Click to expand...

No dispute, just looking for expert clarification:

Regarding Israeli F-35s, I recall a Jerusalem Post article, which reported the IDF had integrated their Spice weapons for internal carry. But given the source...

Of more interest is similar reporting that the IDF had overlayed the F-35 software with their own native command/control layer. One that would allow more rapid integration of Israeli-made weapons. At least, this was the way this capability was described by Defense Update. This would of course offer numerous benefits, apparently dancing around Lockheed's IP.

Speaking of Lockheed IP, is it remotely possible that the IDF gets a pass from Lockheed to meddle with their software if the DoD cannot? I might assume this would be a case of Lockheed looking the other way out of discretion, but I hear bad things about assumptions.

Real question: Are there actual known mods to F-35Is that allow them to operate uniquely as compared to other fleets? If so, could these mods be applied elsewhere? Thanks.
 
VishnuOsiris said:
Regarding Israeli F-35s, I recall a Jerusalem Post article, which reported the IDF had integrated their Spice weapons for internal carry. But given the source...
Click to expand...

There has been mention around Spice 1000 before, but thats not powered. I don't think Spice 250 is operational anywhere yet, but thats glide only, the ER version is powered.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom