Given all this, the service is probably not in a position to fund this to a reasonable level over the FYDP and beyond. The $500 Million in added reconciliation funding isn't enough to fund the program if the base budget cannot sustain it. It merely makes up for the money cut in FY25 IIRC. On top of that, the administration wants $20+ Bn a year on Golden Dome, and other investments not included in the FY24 or 25 budget plans. Combine added budgetary priorities and lower purchasing power for procurement or RDT&E and you have to make hard choices. Admin probably wants to priorities ship building which was a campaign promise so F/A-XX gets pushed out (or killed off)

To be fair though, we may have to remember that USN is still a Navy first and foremost. So decreasing the size of the shipbuilding gap should be a logical priority over propping up the naval aviation arm further. At which point is the investment into the Navy's Air Force at the detriment of the surface combatants and submarines unjustifiable? I could also imagine the USAF lobbying against big money for naval aviation.

"Look guys, you have given us billions to fight the chinese with the F-47, B-21 and CCAs, why would you give money to the Navy for a less capable (I.e less ambitious) program, when we already do that job?"

I think it's also to be considered that the viability and survivability of US carriers in the Indo-Pacific has been called into question, in an all out conflict against the PRC. I think we all have come across the notion. And China pushes the engagement zone further and further away from the mainland at sea and in the air.

So we should maybe remember that submarines and surface combatants are what any Navy should be concerned with first and foremost. And it's not like the USN is doing particularly well in either department right now. So Columbia, Virginia, DDG(X), AB Flight III and Constellation all should realistically take priority over F/A-XX.

(Maybe this should be transferred to rh the F/A-XX thread?)
 
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Because it allows you to conduct a launch closer to the target, thus reducing reaction time and as a consequence increasing the likelihood of a successful strike.
So B-21 with stealthy glide bombs, not F-35 with JASSM.
Subsonic cruise missiles are fairly vulnerable, LO or not.
How do you qualify this sort of vulnerability?
So getting them as close as possible without putting launching aircraft into harms way is an undeniable advantage. And any true multirole aircraft should have this capability, not having it is very narrow minded. Especially given that the natural increase in IWB volume also lends itself to the carrying capacity of other weapons. When you can carry ALCMs internally, you can most likely carry VLRAAMs.
Look, the F-35 can already carry ALCMs. These are called JSM. They're just made to fit the 35, instead of shoehorning legacy stuff on the bird. The relationship is not linear and you have to specify the variables to plot out the design. 2klbs munitions is already a slight compromise in some way. And not everything needs to have interceptor class AAMs. If needed, just hang it off the centerline, like Kinzhal.
 
I think it's also to be considered that the viability and survivability of US carriers in the Indo-Pacific has been called into question, in an all out conflict against the PRC. I think we all have come across the notion. And China pushes the engagement zone further and further away from the mainland at sea and in the air.

I think the viability and survivability of carrier groups in you book could be re-assessed in the light of current events. I wrote in the thread dedicated to the daring Ukrainian Raid on Russian Bomber bases that Range was no more the panacea of defense... Try to imagine that raid done on a carrier group (or see the recent USN deployment in the back-pocket of an Ocean that is the Red sea).

See the difference?
Concentrated fire power. Magazine depth.

Not every US continental base will get the support of US army and USAF defenses that will move toward the front line in case of a conflict. Ironically, that´s not the case with naval battle group: everywhere they go, then goes their guns, their Air Defense frigates, their Space Jamming assets, their attack submarines...
In other words, a carrier Naval group is one of the most efficient projection of power in the modern conventional battle field. Such are small Islands, large shoals and artificial reefs....
 
So B-21 with stealthy glide bombs, not F-35 with JASSM.

How do you qualify this sort of vulnerability?

Look, the F-35 can already carry ALCMs. These are called JSM. They're just made to fit the 35, instead of shoehorning legacy stuff on the bird. The relationship is not linear and you have to specify the variables to plot out the design. 2klbs munitions is already a slight compromise in some way. And not everything needs to have interceptor class AAMs. If needed, just hang it off the centerline, like Kinzhal.

I'd very much like to see the US try to drop glide bombs on mainland Chinese targets with the entire PLAAF buzzing around, getting past several warships on top of that and lastly slipping past land based SAM batteries and long range early warning radars. That is not going to happen, not without anything short of science fiction and while I'm very fond of the B-21 it's an iterative improvement of the foundation that has been laid out by the B-2 before it.

A bomber not utilizing ALCMs or ALBMs during a peer conflict is most likely a very dead bomber. And given how expensive and valuable bombers are, they're not being put at risk in such a silly manner, this isn't the 1940s.

How I'd qualify vulnerabilities of subsonic cruise missiles? How about them being extremely slow targets for interceptors and air defense? And it's not like that's without precedent either, while the Ukrainians struggle hard with ballistic missiles, they can handle Kh-101s, which were designed with reduced signature in mind. These are launched from vast distances, with appropriate amount of warning time. A Kh-69, like the one that obliterated Trypilska TPP on the other hand can be launched much closer towards the target due to the launch platform allowing to operate close to or in contested air space for a launch.

What use is it to dramatically increase the risk of getting engaged while remaining for longer periods in contested air space to deliver a free falling bomb, when you can enter contested air space, launch your missile and exit contested air space instead? That not only reduces the warning time for the intended target of your missile, but it also shrinks the window of opportunity for the SAM operators to engage you before you delivered your ordinance.

So if there was a hypothetical F-35XL, it would make sense if it was able to launch full size ALCM/AShMs, especially given it's nature as a strike fighter and multirole aircraft. Especially when the munitions in question are already in wider use and people are familiar with its operation and maintenance. And the F-35 can already use it, just not internally carry it.

As for longer range missiles, what good reason is there to not extend your engagement distance further out, maintaining the advantage and reducing the risk of being engaged yourself. Especially when other assets like CCAs, other fighters or AEW&Cs can provide your missile with guidance beyond what your own radar could until the missile does it's own thing.

I can't really see how VLRAAMs or ALCM/AShMs being internally carried on a stealth fighter are something bad, something to argue against. Especially when it's about a hypothetical where the opportunity of implementation would simply present itself. On that note, I'm sure J-36s will carry VLRAAMs and ALCMs, if not even ALBMs.
 
I think the viability and survivability of carrier groups in you book could be re-assessed in the light of current events. I wrote in the thread dedicated to the daring Ukrainian Raid on Russian Bomber bases that Range was no more the panacea of defense... Try to imagine that raid done on a carrier group (or see the recent USN deployment in the back-pocket of an Ocean that is the Red sea).

See the difference?
Concentrated fire power. Magazine depth.

Not every US continental base will get the support of US army and USAF defenses that will move toward the front line in case of a conflict. Ironically, that´s not the case with naval battle group: everywhere they go, then goes their guns, their Air Defense frigates, their Space Jamming assets, their attack submarines...

I think we should continue this somewhere else, I feel like we're derailing the thread a bit
 
That's just one point of consideration for a very limited scenario. Effective engagement range of a JASSM is in the order of thousands of kilometres if we're talking about a direct to target strike, no loiter. A F-35 carrying JASSM internally cannot fully exploit that range advantage because by itself it's already undetectable for a couple hundreds of miles after initial penetration, and a couple more scattering points will not change much in the equation (you could also fit the payload within an OML optimized pod). An F-35 carrying JASSM carrying JASSM internally will not be optimized to survived against a SAM capable of erecting a thousand-kilometres AD bubble because it was designed to TACAIR requirements ie interdiction. Design to both (strategic and battlefield ADS) and you end up with a white elephant.
Effective engagement range of a JASSM is only 1000km with no loiter, Time-on-Target, or off-axis attack shenanigans. More like 600km to allow for TOT.

But it does sound like the changes to the F-35A OML are pretty small.



To be fair though, we may have to remember that USN is still a Navy first and foremost. So decreasing the size of the shipbuilding gap should be a logical priority over propping up the naval aviation arm further. At which point is the investment into the Navy's Air Force at the detriment of the surface combatants and submarines unjustifiable?
Remember that one of the major purposes of FAXX is to protect the carrier at range.




I could also imagine the USAF lobbying against big money for naval aviation.

"Look guys, you have given us billions to fight the chinese with the F-47, B-21 and CCAs, why would you give money to the Navy for a less capable (I.e less ambitious) program, when we already do that job?"
Mostly because the USAF isn't doing that job.



I'd very much like to see the US try to drop glide bombs on mainland Chinese targets with the entire PLAAF buzzing around, getting past several warships on top of that and lastly slipping past land based SAM batteries and long range early warning radars. That is not going to happen, not without anything short of science fiction and while I'm very fond of the B-21 it's an iterative improvement of the foundation that has been laid out by the B-2 before it.

A bomber not utilizing ALCMs or ALBMs during a peer conflict is most likely a very dead bomber. And given how expensive and valuable bombers are, they're not being put at risk in such a silly manner, this isn't the 1940s.
That is literally the design mission of the B-21.
 
https://www.armyrecognition.com/new...ill-nato-defense-requirements#google_vignette
According to information published by De Morgen on June 2, 2025, the Belgian government is preparing to finalize a strategic order for 21 additional F-35A fighter aircraft, bringing its total fleet to 55 units. This move is part of a broader €36 billion investment plan aimed at modernizing the country’s armed forces by 2035. Scheduled ahead of the upcoming NATO summit in The Hague, the decision is intended to demonstrate Belgium’s commitment to meeting Alliance standards, particularly the target of allocating 2% of GDP to defense spending, amid growing geopolitical tensions with Russia.
 
I think we should continue this somewhere else, I feel like we're derailing the thread a bit
Seems so, indeed, though at least the F-35 was mentioned in most posts...
But, please, try to stay on topic, and discuss themes like JASSM in more appropriate threads.
The search function may be helpful here. ;)
 
Off course its relevant, you cant have a twin engined F-35 winning the FA-XX program if LM is out of FA-XX program.
Not the point I was making. On this and other threads there was an attempted translation of Trump’s remarks about “an F-35 but with two engines let’s call it the F-55”.

My contention is this WAS NOT a reference to an actual F-35 with two engines but the F/A-XX which could be seen as a “super F-35” in a Trumpian interpretation.
 
My contention is this WAS NOT a reference to an actual F-35 with two engines but the F/A-XX which could be seen as a “super F-35” in a Trumpian interpretation.
Trying to interpret what Trump is saying, especially when it comes to anything to do with technology or technical details, is pointless. There is no gem of truth hidden in his comments...
 
Trying to interpret what Trump is saying, especially when it comes to anything to do with technology or technical details, is pointless. There is no gem of truth hidden in his comments...
Not to belabor the point the information was imparted by Trump for all to hear and became a topic of this forum.

That was my interpretation others were making other interpretations speculating he meant an actual F-35 but with two engines. I disagreed speculating it sounded like Trump was being told about this amazing aircraft like the F-35 but with two engines hence the new F-55 (F/A-XX)

There’s nothing more for me to say on this topic this is my opinion.
 
Anyone else notice the little orange glow around 2:00 inside the augmentor cavity? I don’t know if the pilot has just canceled AB with the last flameholder just rapidly cooling off, or if he has just selected AB and that is the first flame visible from the light off.

Neat photo !
 
yep I agree with that. limit off topic politics unless its directly tied to the aircraft programme (i.e. president cancels/orders new planes)
 
What if Trump was briefed on the new Chinese FC-31, which looks a lot like the f-35 and thought yep lets buy them? View attachment 772453
With half of the original cost of upgrading the F35, you can get a twin-engine version of the "F35", and then use the saved funds on the NGAD project, and then build a better sixth-generation aircraft to suppress the Chinese fighter, oh my God, this is a genius idea. Let's hope no one really thinks about it . :-P
Let's leave the silly discussions for elsewhere please.
 
Well, it seems either the new radar has growth past its former volume (as noted late in the report) or its increased capabilities in bandwidth and range are limited by the present fuselage configuration. That last assumption would match the production cost/delays mentioned issue where a larger modified design is seen as requiring less manufacturing high technology and be available in quantity that match the Fort-Worth production output faster.

It´s not something uncommon with fighter planes (think F-4, F-8, Mirage, F-105...).
 
Well, it seems either the new radar has growth past its former volume (as noted late in the report) or its increased capabilities in bandwidth and range are limited by the present fuselage configuration. That last assumption would match the production cost/delays mentioned issue where a larger modified design is seen as requiring less manufacturing high technology and be available in quantity that match the Fort-Worth production output faster.

It´s not something uncommon with fighter planes (think F-4, F-8, Mirage, F-105...).
Speaking of the F-105, the F & G models got a stretch. Maybe they could do the same to the F-35A & C. Maybe a foot in front of the cockpit and three or four between the intakes and tail?
 
Difficult to judge without data but I doubt that the stretch would need to be so drastic. The apg-85 was designed to fit in the actual nose. Northrop can't be that off in term of volume.
 
Could a new nose-section design be due to increased cooling requirements for the AN/APG-85 radar? I remember seeing an article in back in the late 1990s in AW&ST about how Boeing had to design a new nose-section for the Block-II F/A-18E/F as the Block-I nose-section couldn't accomodate the additional cooling required for the AN/APG-79 AESA radar.
 
Difficult to judge without data but I doubt that the stretch would need to be so drastic. The apg-85 was designed to fit in the actual nose. Northrop can't be that off in term of volume.
I was just thinking, if they needed to stretch, may as well do something about the fineness ratio.
 
Could a new nose-section design be due to increased cooling requirements for the AN/APG-85 radar? I remember seeing an article in back in the late 1990s in AW&ST about how Boeing had to design a new nose-section for the Block-II F/A-18E/F as the Block-I nose-section couldn't accomodate the additional cooling required for the AN/APG-79 AESA radar.
Or because they ditched the 3-stream solution.
 

Rumored changes to the outer moldline, rumors about changes to the forward fuselage, fears about radar delays.

To me this all seems related to the cooling package. I assume they discovered that the F-35, which has always somewhat struggled to meet the cooling needs, cannot cope with the new NG radar without changes to the fuselage in order to accommodate the necessary systems to keep the new radar cool.

Just my assumption, because it seems to be a logical conclusion in my eyes.

Edit: it could also be the AF looking to "uncompromise" the F-35, which needed to make fundamental compromises to meet Navy and USMC needs. Better radar, stretched fuselage, changes to the outer moldline and other theorized upgrades seem to get the F-35 more into the direction of what the USAF initially wanted out of it?
 
it could also be the AF looking to "uncompromise" the F-35, which needed to make fundamental compromises to meet Navy and USMC needs. Better radar, stretched fuselage, changes to the outer moldline and other theorized upgrades seem to get the F-35 more into the direction of what the USAF initially wanted out of it?

I don't think its the AF that wants it. To me it seems like they want to go all in on the F-45 so they can move on from the 35 already.
 
Could a new nose-section design be due to increased cooling requirements for the AN/APG-85 radar? I remember seeing an article in back in the late 1990s in AW&ST about how Boeing had to design a new nose-section for the Block-II F/A-18E/F as the Block-I nose-section couldn't accomodate the additional cooling required for the AN/APG-79 AESA radar.

A slightly similar story as to why Typhoon Tranche 1 can't get upgraded to ECRS 0,1 and 2. Not the size of the radar but other factors, power, cooling, enough clearance/space for cabling through the airframe and bulkheads etc. Could be the same for AN/APG-85...

Bit of a cock-up though....ECRS weren't ever expected to fit on T1's...but AN/APG-85 were supposed to be retrofittable from what we've heard...

Are LM capable of handling this additional change on top of all the, already late, changes on their plate?
 
but AN/APG-85 were supposed to be retrofittable from what we've heard...
Only retrofittable to Blk 4 aircraft was the plan but appears unless the operator wants to undertake a more extensive and expensive upgrade from Blk 3 to 4 then it might remain only for aircraft manufactured for Lot 20 and after.
Are LM capable of handling this additional change on top of all the, already late, changes on their plate?
The article infers that the delay is more on the NG side, although delay isn't the right word given NG gave a timeline and LM and the Program Office went back with an accelerated one. So I expect unless they are waiting on NG to provide additional specs to the internal changes on the nose that it is just waiting for the first APG-85s to arrive.

The interesting part of this for me is that the APG-85 was suggested as being US only but the article reads that it might instead be available to all operators.

Given how the system is operated it likely won't be a significant increase in sustainment costs to have a mixed fleet of APG-85 and 81 aircraft. USAF flew quite a few F-15C with old and new radars, golden eagles, across the formation.
 
There is also the option that they are taking this as an excuse to pimp it up, making it more slim & pointy, given all the bad narrative around its apparent fat fuselage and other irrational comments so popular in the online media known for, somewhat, permeating this administration's decision process...
 
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