Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

bring_it_on said:
In actual contractual terms where were they in the process*? Source selection? Formal LOI to GOTUS, approved FMS case? Signed Contract? If it is left of LOI, they were effectively just getting started so hardly a 'cancellation'. Any process that's left of that can be walked backwards and re-started at a future date if things change.

*In other words, what was the probability of a signed contract in 2 years? 5 years?
Click to expand...
Left of LOI.
Chances of signed contract in 2 years, slightly better (but just slightly...) than a signed contract with Iran. In 5 years, possible but i wouldnt make a bet on it.
 
In other words, at the end of the present US administration, they will be at the same point as of today... Canceling was a cheap thing to do, without the burden of any consequences but made them the hero of a day. In 4 years, they would be able to reopen negotiations without much if any delays in their overall plans.

Internet is gaining traction in politics.
 
Last edited:
bring_it_on said:
In actual contractual terms where were they in the process*? Source selection? Formal LOI to GOTUS, approved FMS case? Signed Contract? If it is left of LOI, they were effectively just getting started so hardly a 'cancellation'. Any process that's left of that can be walked backwards and re-started at a future date if things change.

*In other words, what was the probability of a signed contract in 2 years? 5 years?
Click to expand...

In actual contract terms, Sole Source Selection. Meaning no multi-vendor bid tendering or open public procurement process required.
 
Sintra said:
Suspect that the FAP F-16's are gonna do a "F-86" (fly until desintegration, the Sabre flew with the FAP til 1980).
Click to expand...
For me, that makes sense. Portugal could ideally update some F-16s to the Block 70 standard but cancelling the F-35s and then getting Rafales or Typhoons wouldn’t make much sense – in my opionion.
The more rational solution would be to wait for the GCAP/Tempest with its presumably longer air policing range (Azores) than the already mentioned aircraft.

As to the hyped F-35 cancellation – I would start to be cautious if Switzerland and Finland would switch to other aircraft.
 
Last edited:
had said:
.As to the hyped F-35 cancellation – I would start to be cautious if Switzerland and Finland would switch to other aircraft.
Click to expand...
Can't see Finland cancelling, they at least have a very good understanding of the capability difference they would have to accept if they did. Switzerland on the other hand...
 
Portugal could replace its ageing American-made F-16 fighter jets with European jets rather than F-35s following U.S. President Donald Trump's policy shifts, the country's defence ministry said on Friday.
Defence Minister Nuno Melo told Portugal's Publico newspaper the unpredictable nature of Trump's policy towards NATO and Europe could determine the country's pick of aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
Is it even possible to cancel a F-35 "deal" once committed and after a few years ? Sometimes I feel it's like Concorde: no escape clause, baby. As would say Nacho Varga "It's not about what you want. When you're in - you're in."
 
Archibald said:
Is it even possible to cancel a F-35 "deal" once committed and after a few years ? Sometimes I feel it's like Concorde: no escape clause, baby. As would say Nacho Varga "It's not about what you want. When you're in - you're in."
Click to expand...

Well, contracts and treaties aren't exactly stable right now. The big questions would be (1) is there a viable alternative capability available and (2) how much have costs already been sunk (including things like training).

I could see some smaller countries selling their handful of aircraft (especially as recently received) and then buying Gripen-E to maintain a baseline 4+ while buying into GCAP. Since a lot of the maintenance structure is just-in-time and centred in the U.S. it should be pretty easy to transfer with the airframes.
 
I read the press headline about Canada reconsidering their F-35 order. Before that, we had complimentary reports about the rational and experienced personality of the new Prime minister.

But then again, how many F-35 Canada will in effect introduce in service during the next 4 years, as per their actual plan? What realistic impact would it have on its alleged defense posture?

Sane Politics is not about postponing urgent military requirements on the ground that it does not make you fashionable.
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
Sane Politics is not about postponing urgent military requirements on the ground that it does not make you fashionable.
Click to expand...
There's point they can be reviewed if main scenario is under doubt. F-35 is ultimately a 100% "allied commitment".

If Ottawa considers common interventions of united free world as not the only possible scenario, options emerge.

If Ottawa considers it is under no threat but such interventions are not as likely anymore, other options may be considered. To save some money, if anything.
If Ottawa considers Russia as a threat, other options are urgently worth looking into.
If Ottawa considers (let's think for a second) US a threat, other options should be acted upon yesterday, in panic.
 
There are alternatives to the US, and the new Prime Minister has rightly ordered a review into the defence and economic implications of ordering weapons from the US at the same time the US is threatening to invade it and whether purchasing a different platform (for example the runner up SAAB bid or a different platform if Canadian workshare could be agreed) would be better.
 
That was what I was thinking WatcherZero, the Gripen E would be a good alternative to the F-35.
 
Recent exercise with the British Navy and USMC manned F-35B whipping out the entire French team off French coast flying nearly unlimited Rafale or open complaints from French pilots that it is not possible to win a fight against a 5th Gen fighter does not raise any realistic reasonable outcome for Canada while buying the Saab fighter. (I am using the example of France as part of Canadians speak the same language and that Rafale have been regularly evaluated a better buy than the Saab Gripen).

All this discussion is rather ridiculous on an Aerospace forum. We Know fairly well how the Lightning is dominant across numerous evaluations, campaigns and reports. We can't spend our time argumenting into infinity the same biased arguments. Please, leave that to X.com.
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
All this discussion is rather ridiculous on an Aerospace forum. We Know fairly well how the Lightning is dominant across numerous evaluations, campaigns and reports. We can't spend our time argumenting into infinity the same biased arguments. Please, leave that to X.com.
Click to expand...

And its also inferior in many others such as sortie generation, combat load, operating cost which is 3x higher, basing requirements, and interdiction roles. The F-35 is a very good intruder it doesn't automatically make it the right tool for the job in other roles such as patrol and defence. There have also been exercises where the F-35 got slaughtered by 4th gen such as in Red Flags where it was in the rapid reaction role, or wargaming aerial and naval engagements over the Pacific. That Red Flag for example in 2017 where it was claimed it got a 15:1 kill ratio it was acting in the role of a bomber alongside F-22 engaging aerial targets, B1 and two squadrons of Growlers providing jamming operating against an opposing force of F-16C's a late 80'/early 90's aircraft that numerous countries have retired as obsolete.
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
Recent exercise with the British Navy and USMC manned F-35B whipping out the entire French team off French coast flying nearly unlimited Rafale or open complaints from French pilots that it is not possible to win a fight against a 5th Gen fighter does not raise any realistic reasonable outcome for Canada while buying the Saab fighter. (I am using the example of France as part of Canadians speak the same language and that Rafale have been regularly evaluated a better buy than the Saab Gripen).

All this discussion is rather ridiculous on an Aerospace forum. We Know fairly well how the Lightning is dominant across numerous evaluations, campaigns and reports. We can't spend our time argumenting into infinity the same biased arguments. Please, leave that to X.com.
Click to expand...
Yes, but. What to do if Canadian establishment considers:

(1) Accompanying US into wars is no longer the main goal. Mexico does alright without adequate fighters at all.
(2) Surviving against US as one of potential goals.
Thrown in for fun purposes, but ultimately POTUS says what he says.

Eurocanards can't compete with F-35 being F-35: arguably it's out of European reach to even produce this pair of aircraft and ecosystem - even if they had 5th gen.
But this doesn't mean there are no circumstances where other aircraft can be more suitable.
 
TomcatViP said:
Recent exercise with the British Navy and USMC manned F-35B whipping out the entire French team off French coast flying nearly unlimited Rafale or open complaints from French pilots that it is not possible to win a fight against a 5th Gen fighter does not raise any realistic reasonable outcome for Canada while buying the Saab fighter. (I am using the example of France as part of Canadians speak the same language and that Rafale have been regularly evaluated a better buy than the Saab Gripen).

All this discussion is rather ridiculous on an Aerospace forum. We Know fairly well how the Lightning is dominant across numerous evaluations, campaigns and reports. We can't spend our time argumenting into infinity the same biased arguments. Please, leave that to X.com.
Click to expand...

Any source for such outrageous claims ?
 
Canada is free to do as they wish. Buying the Gripen is a good idea. I also think they should withdraw from NORAD immediately.

If the Canadians are so afraid of "kill switches", if these even exist (and no, there's no boom button on any F-35 nor a remote shutdown one), I recommend they turn over their fleet of American-made aircraft and pay contract penalties accordingly.
Ainen said:
Annexation rhetoric isn't exactly a funny joke.
Click to expand...
It's a le funny for them in 2014 and 2022, but when the boogeyman's straight right up their border then it's a situation now?
 
In fact, the dumping of F-35 fighter jets in Europe has already undermined Europe's fifth-generation aircraft development program to some extent.Although Canada may not be very happy, the F35 is the best fighter they can buy. For Canadians, as long as you hold on and be patient for four years, any problem will be solved
 
4th gen that works ‘Trumps’ a 5th gen that does not. You cannot blame Europe for getting cold feet when the U.S. is warming up to its primary security threat and cannot acknowledge basic facts like who started the war.
 
A more rational approach would be to embrass all European users in the development of a ".EU" model of the F-35. Or even lend them Typhoon. Look at the force in presence.
Rafale is the outsider.

But I have to say IMOHO, this Kitchen renovation* aproach of the €800b European fund gets scary day after day.

*expunging hard made savings into something not really necessarily.
 
Last edited:
TomcatViP said:
A more rational approach would be to embrass all European users in the development of a ".EU" model of the F-35. Or even lend them Typhoon. Look at the force in presence.
Rafale is the outsider.

But I have to say IMOHO, this Kitchen renovation* aproach of the €800b European fund get scary day after day.

*expunging hard made savings into something not really necessarily.
Click to expand...
A more rational approach would be to embrass all European users in the development of a ".EU" model of the KF-21 with an evolution of EJ200 ;)
 
An extract traduct in English of the report:
The F35 fighter, a stealth aircraft of the latest generation currently in service in several European air forces, but also in Australia, is one illustration of this downgrading risk. In less than five years, this aircraft will be the reference standard to be able to participate in the most demanding engagement scenarios. It is up to us today to decide whether we wish to continue to participate in such commitments tomorrow.
Complete report in French.

Compte rendu de réunion n° 6 - Commission de la défense nationale et des forces armées

www.assemblee-nationale.fr www.assemblee-nationale.fr
With all you can say the Rafale is years away to be a 5th gen fighter , The Rafale is a 4th gen fighter and in exercices with the F-35 it is a lot inferior , I will find you a part of some pilots said about that.
 
Archibald said:
Proof your claims and we shall see.
Click to expand...
The last one report , I let you traduce I give you the link, Armée de l'air survive 3 days in a high intensity conflict , lack of stealth and Sead , sorry but the F-35 WIN ;) .
Official politic report.

L’avenir de la supériorité aérienne. Maîtriser le ciel en haute intensité | Ifri

La supériorité aérienne, concept clé dans l’art de la guerre occidental, définit le degré de maîtrise de l’air dans un conflit armé. Condition nécessaire mais non suffisante à la victoire militaire, elle permet de concentrer les efforts aériens au profit des autres objectifs stratégiques et de...
www.ifri.org www.ifri.org
 
Let‘s have another try here …
Maybe we should apply the rule here, that those, who cannot keep their temper in line, spam this thread with OT posts, or with politics, simply cannot post here anymore.
Please keep in mind, that this would be valid for those, who are „feeding the troll“, or just paying back someone in his own coin, too …
 

Trump eyes lifting sanctions, potential sale of prized fighter jet to Turkey​

Click to expand...
Trump expressed an intent to help finalize the sale of F-16 fighter jets to Turkey and is open to the idea of selling Turkey its true prized goal, F-35 jets, if the two sides can come to an agreement that renders Turkey’s Russian S-400 system inoperable, two sources confirmed to Fox News Digital.

That agreement could look like partially disassembling the machinery or moving it to a U.S.-controlled base in Turkey.
Click to expand...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tr...ions-potential-sale-prized-fighter-jet-turkey

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903263882535199179
View: https://x.com/humeyra_pamuk/status/1903263882535199179
https://twitter.com/x/status/1903264160542060720
View: https://x.com/humeyra_pamuk/status/1903264160542060720


Not this again!

giphy.gif
 
Last edited:
Personally I think this IMO witless hysteria over an F-35 "Kill Switch" is overblown, if the US (For whatever reason) to shutdown another country's F-35 fleet all it needs to do is for the US's DoD to cut off access to the ALIS/ODIN network.
 
if the US (For whatever reason) to shutdown another country's F-35 fleet all it needs to do is for the US's DoD to cut off access to the ALIS/ODIN network.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a virtual cut off switch to me.

Regards,
 
NMaude said:
Personally I think this IMO witless hysteria over an F-35 "Kill Switch" is overblown, if the US (For whatever reason) to shutdown another country's F-35 fleet all it needs to do is for the US's DoD to cut off access to the ALIS/ODIN network.
Click to expand...
Then we can assume one step further, that ALIS/ODIN have 0-days...;)
 
F-35 project in Weeze – the first tools arrive
In Weeze, Rheinmetall will in future manufacture at least 400 center fuselage sections for the world's most advanced fighter jet, the F-35. Production is scheduled to begin in July 2025. Since January, heavy haulage transports from the USA have been arriving at the new plant next to Weeze Airport – a total of around 35 in all. In a few days, the installation of the Northrop Grumman machines will begin in the factory. We have captured the delivery of the very first parts, packed in packages of around 5 tons, in the video.
Click to expand...
Video:
View: https://youtu.be/t_2SayC1BIk?si=tqeVtCbeFYaLFdo2

Link:
Code: 
https://youtu.be/t_2SayC1BIk?si=tqeVtCbeFYaLFdo2
FYI, the airport Weeze was formerly known as RAF Laarbruch.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom