Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

Was the F-35's biggest vulnerability discovered by China?

https://meta-defense.fr/en/2025/02/12/vulnerabilite-f-35-infrarouge-chine/
https://tech.wp.pl/s/konflikty-pl/czy-chiny-znalazly-remedium-na-f-35,7126486035159872a
Use translate for the above link.

Specifically for the purpose of detecting stealth aircraft, the Chinese have developed and implemented the ASEA radar operating on JY-27A meter waves. To detect hard-to-detect aircraft, it uses the resonance phenomenon occurring at the point where vertical and horizontal elements of the airframe are joined. VHF waves can cause the excitation of a standing wave or other form of electromagnetic oscillation between the ballasts, which increases their radar signature. In addition, if the VHF wavelength is close to the dimensions of specific aircraft components (e.g., vertical and horizontal stabilizers), they can become effective radar reflectors, increasing the reflection of the signal towards the radar.
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Bit of a worry it seems if they have figured it out.

Regards,
 
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Halcyon66 said:
Was the F-35's biggest vulnerability discovered by China?

https://meta-defense.fr/en/2025/02/12/vulnerabilite-f-35-infrarouge-chine/
https://tech.wp.pl/s/konflikty-pl/czy-chiny-znalazly-remedium-na-f-35,7126486035159872a
Use translate for the above link.



Bit of a worry it seems if they have figured it out.

Regards,
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This is to the best of my knowledge a known effect of specific wavelengths of radar and one of the reasons people refer to designs without vertical control surfaces as “broadband stealth”. A number of large surface based radars use this wavelength, though the only airborne example I am aware of is the E-2D.
 
Josh_TN said:
This is to the best of my knowledge a known effect of specific wavelengths of radar and one of the reasons people refer to designs without vertical control surfaces as “broadband stealth”. A number of large surface based radars use this wavelength, though the only airborne example I am aware of is the E-2D.
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This has been well known for a long time. Russian and Chinese VHF surveillance radars were developed (since the early 2000s at least) with vertical polarization that seek resonate off the vertical stabs since they are ~ 1.5 to 2.5 x wavelength. Detection does not equal engageable track however. The push now is to cue other sensors and fuse the picture to build a engageable track. This is why there is a push to tailless designs for 6th gen.
 
Well, metadef.fr is often the powerless victim of its own binge drinking attitude toward anti-US subjects. At a time when the Alliance got seriously wrecked by recent poor diplomatic choices, it should not surprise anyone that those voices are to be heard again.
Call it a polarization effect.
 
Defense Updates put out earlier today listing five reasons why India may not chose to buy the F-35:


On February 13 , when PM Narendra Modi met US President Donald Trump, he offered India the fifth-generation F-35 stealth fighter.
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Trump said, “Starting this year, we’ll be increasing military sales to India by many millions of dollars, we’re also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F-35 stealth fighter”The realism of Trump's F-35 offer remains uncertain, but there's no doubt that India is actively seeking new fighter jets.
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This development comes against the backdrop of F-35 participating in Aero India 2025 where it stood just meters apart from the Russian Su-57, which has been officially offered to India.While we have argued that the Indian Air Force may avoid Russian Su-57 in a previous video, linked above, the F-35 is also not a very suitable option for India for a few very specific reasons.
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In this video, Defense Updates analyzes why India may not choose the American F-35 ?
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#defenseupdates #f35 #f35fighterjet
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Chapters:
0:00 TITLE
00:11 INTRODUCTION
02:00 INDIA WON'T DECOMMISSION RUSSIAN S-400
04:32 NO TECH TRANSFER / LOCAL MANUFACTURING
05:21 TRUST ISSUE REMAIN
08:05 F-35 INTEGRATION WILL BE CHALLENGING
08:57 AMERICAN PLATFORMS COME WITH RESTRICTIONS
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India possessing and not decommissioning their SA-21 Growler batteries alone would make such a deal with the US a non-starter.
 
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Halcyon66 said:
Was the F-35's biggest vulnerability discovered by China?
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Halcyon66 said:
Bit of a worry it seems if they have figured it out.
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Halcyon66 said:
Regards,
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It's known for many decades if not more.
It's used by nations concerned about stealth for decades, with more of them being added over time(some grew technologically capable over time, others simply grew concerned).

China is doing more of things already known, better. Because they both can do it, and can afford to do it.

I.e. flying L and UHF bands, oversized optical mirrors. No magic.
All effective in appropriate situations, all have counters or major inconveniences.
 
The Su-57 is a heavy fighter, the F-35A is a medium fighter.
The cost for a foreign customer is comparable - $ 150 million apiece.
The Su-57 assembly in India lowers the price tag to $100 million apiece.

Combat effectiveness:
air-to-air
Su-57 - 1.6
F-35A - 1.0
air-to-ground:
Su-57 - 1.87
F-35 - 1.0

Flight hour cost: Su-57 up to 10.000 - 15,000 dollars / hour, F-35A - 32,000 dollars / hour
The Su-57 is manufactured in India, except for engines. F-35 production of all components in the USA.
Combat use of the Su-57 without restrictions, F-35 only with the permission of the United States.
 
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paralay said:
The Su-57 is a heavy fighter, the F-35A is a medium fighter.
The cost for a foreign customer is comparable - $ 150 million apiece.
Combat effectiveness:
air-to-air
Su-57 - 1.6
F-35A - 1.0
air-to-ground:
Su-57 - 1.87
F-35 - 1.0

Flight hour cost: Su-57 up to 15,000 dollars / hour, F-35A - 32,000 dollars / hour
The Su-57 is manufactured in India, except for engines. F-35 production of all components in the USA.
Combat use of the Su-57 without restrictions, F-35 only with the permission of the United States.
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I'm always very amused by how you quantify your little pronouncements of combat effectiveness and whatnot
 
paralay said:
The Su-57 is a heavy fighter, the F-35A is a medium fighter.
The cost for a foreign customer is comparable - $ 150 million apiece.
Combat effectiveness:
air-to-air
Su-57 - 1.6
F-35A - 1.0
air-to-ground:
Su-57 - 1.87
F-35 - 1.0

Flight hour cost: Su-57 up to 15,000 dollars / hour, F-35A - 32,000 dollars / hour
The Su-57 is manufactured in India, except for engines. F-35 production of all components in the USA.
Combat use of the Su-57 without restrictions, F-35 only with the permission of the United States.

If there is no corruption component, the choice is obvious.
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There seems to be several errors. Su-57 in air to air is closer to 1.19 and F-35A just a notch above 1.45. In air to ground, the Felon comes in at slightly below 0.8, while the F-35 achieves 1.89. Of course I'm comparing the CTOL F-35A.
 
yeetmahboi said:
Felon without an integral EOTS getting higher points amuse me much.
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Curious if S-71K/M can at least to some degree make up for it in the future. Though it's certainly a far more expensive way to do things.
 
In light of recent geopolitcal events, I'd like to ask you guys (who are certainly more knowledgeable than me) - how much truth is there to the rumor that the US can ground foreign F-35s with a press of a button? I know that ALIS/ODIN exists, and in order to do maintenance,the jet needs to phone home to the mothership. I also remember reading an article that in order to access the full capabilities of the jet, a mission plan and information about the battlespace needs to be uploaded, and that software is US-only, so if the US would withdraw support for that, the jet could only operate in a fairly reduced capability, but is there any basis to the rumors, that the jet 'phones home', uploading all information to US servers, and/or can be remotely disabled?

I mean other than the obvious way, of stopping to offer replacement parts/repairs, which affects every jet out there.
 
The aircraft is built with a month long offline buffer time. You can stay off the system as long as you want during that time.
Things have also changed quite a lot in term of less constraint and more control on the exchanged data for non-US users following the increase of foreign sales and ODINS* setbacks.

But the online database is a bonus more than a constraint. Generating data maps with quality and time sensitive information is something out of reach for most single users.

*Or whatever is it's name now (I probably lost track of it)
 
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France is in talks to take over the NATO air dropped nuclear sharing role with Germany from the US. Does then call into question Germany's F-35 purchase.
 
Elysium said:
In light of recent geopolitcal events, I'd like to ask you guys (who are certainly more knowledgeable than me) - how much truth is there to the rumor that the US can ground foreign F-35s with a press of a button? I know that ALIS/ODIN exists, and in order to do maintenance,the jet needs to phone home to the mothership. I also remember reading an article that in order to access the full capabilities of the jet, a mission plan and information about the battlespace needs to be uploaded, and that software is US-only, so if the US would withdraw support for that, the jet could only operate in a fairly reduced capability, but is there any basis to the rumors, that the jet 'phones home', uploading all information to US servers, and/or can be remotely disabled?

I mean other than the obvious way, of stopping to offer replacement parts/repairs, which affects every jet out there.
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It is true at least for South Korea. Needs a digital key to start the system.
 
Defense Updates has put out a video about apparent concerns from the PRC concerning the potential sale of F-35s to India


On February 13, during a meeting with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the White House, President Trump offered the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter jets. Trump stated, “We’ll be increasing military sales to India by manybillions of dollars. We’re also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F-35 stealth fighters.”This has created uneasiness in China which sees India as a challenge to its hegemonic designs in the region. Reacting to the potential sale, Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Guo Jiakun cautioned against turning the Asia-Pacific into a battleground for global power struggles.
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Guo stated, “No one should make China an issue in the relations and cooperation between countries or seek to instigate bloc politics and confrontation. The Asia-Pacific is a stellar example of peace and development, not an arena for geopolitical games,” He further criticized what he called “exclusive groupings,” arguing that such alliances undermine regional security rather than enhancing it.
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In this video, Defense Updates analyzes why China is concerned about possible F-35 sales to India when it has J-20 5th gen fighter?
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#defenseupdates #f35 #f35lightningii
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Chapters:
0:00 TITLE
00:11 INTRODUCTION
02:20 J-20’s STEALTH CHARACTERISTICS ARE SUSPECT
03:43 F-35 IS GETTING HUGE UPGRADES MAKING IT FAR SUPERIOR
05:48 F-35 IS A WELL-TESTED PLATFORM UNLIKE J-20
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On the other hand I suspect that Putler is hoping that the US does sell F-35s to India since India has a number of SA-21 Growler batteries that would enable the Russian techs to get surreptitious radar scans of the F-35 using the SA-21 system's radars.
 
paralay said:
Before that, in your opinion, it was not possible to scan? The joint piloting of the Su-35S and F-35 has happened repeatedly
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Having physical possession of the F-35 would enable up close and personal inspections of the aircraft, they'd be able to get data that isn't possible with just a scan.

Now as to PRC concerns I have no doubt that they don't like the idea of F-35s being able to get detailed scams of their J-20, apparently the Su-35 has no trouble detecting and tracking them.
 
A close acquaintance with the design is unlikely to reveal any "terrible secrets". The properties of radio-absorbing materials, the operation of equipment, and the technical solutions of radio electronics and the engine are interesting.
 
Contract awarded in 2017, 1st test flight of the integration in 2025....goddamn you are slow Lockheed Martin*.
 
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Regarding the F-35's self-defense AMRAAMs, are they married to those missiles on those bay door hard points? In other words, if time/cost is of no consideration, can I put a 9x on the bay doors? Would I need a something virtually the same size and shape in order to replace the AMRAAM as the weapon du jour? From the layman's view, I would assume they are stuck with AMRAAMs, due to other weapons' unique arrangements. If this is the case, I will be stunned.
 
siegecrossbow said:
FoxThreeForDale is an active service USN pilot with F-18E/F-35C experience. He and tailhook proved their credential through cockpit shots so I’d take their analysis seriously.
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These comments were deleted from Reddit, but are available here:

https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/Cred...mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
This is also a good reminder that comments, posts, etc. deleted from Reddit are never really deleted, even if it was done by a moderator.
 
VishnuOsiris said:
Regarding the F-35's self-defense AMRAAMs, are they married to those missiles on those bay door hard points? In other words, if time/cost is of no consideration, can I put a 9x on the bay doors? Would I need a something virtually the same size and shape in order to replace the AMRAAM as the weapon du jour? From the layman's view, I would assume they are stuck with AMRAAMs, due to other weapons' unique arrangements. If this is the case, I will be stunned.
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I believe the rocket motor of the AIM-9X ignites immediately "off the rail" so in its current form it can't really be ejected and then have the rocket start. ASRAAM is capable of that launch method however, and I believe the UK originally specified that they could be carried internally in place of an AMRAAM. They may have lost interest in that requirement however and the larger F-35 program probably wouldn't have done the integration work and testing if that is the case.

For other air-to-air missiles, as just demonstrated a Meteor variant (I assume it has clipped fins) will fit, and the AIM-260 undoubtedly will too. Originally the Japanese were looking to develop a successor to their AAM-4 missile that would be capable of being carried internally by the F-35. At one point they were trying to collaborate with the UK on it as a joint program that would combine elements of both the Meteor (VFDR) and the AAM-4 (AESA radar seeker). I think that effort might have gone nowhere though. I'm not sure what Japanese air-to-air missile plans are beyond the current AAM-4 and AIM-120 purchases.
 

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