Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[kitnut617]

Just found this video on YouTube, I do not know if this video is true or not but it appears that the F-35 has been knocked out of Canada's competition to search for the successor to the F/A-18 Hornet.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvFFnM7IjYw

The video (or description, it's the same text) tells the opposite story that the title implies (which happens to be nothing new for those who have been following the program).

#Lockheed #Martin's #f35 knocked out of #Canadian competition? For those trying to predict the future outcome of #Canada #fighter #aircraft competition, the two announcements in the weeks before Christmas seem to tilt the field in favor of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. The first was a story leaked over the US Thanksgiving weekend in late November that the Canadian government had selected two bidders to replace its aging Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) fleet of the #CF18 Hornet, and the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Block III. The Super Hornet is not among them. The second came a few weeks later, on December 9, when the Finnish government announced the selection of the F-35 for the HX fighter aircraft program to replace the F/A-18 Hornet fleet. Like Canada, that competition includes the Boeing Super Hornet, Saab Gripen E,

Further proving the old adage that any news story with a question mark on its title can be answered with a "no".

The image of the Canadian PM also seems to be from before he became a PM, back in 2015 when he was campaigning against the F-35.

 

[VTOLicious]

I'm not familiar with standard procedures for carrier landings. However, in this video it appears the aircraft was lined up with the flightdeck very late. Was it an emergency? Another observation: Apparently the carrier made a rather sharp turn short before the accident happened.

I think you are correct in your assumptions: it looks like as if it was some kind of unusual recovery. But it might be some kind of training also.

Unusual recovery is most likely the correct wording, not necessarily connected to an emergency situation. What can also be seen: Perfect visual conditions / calm sea.

 

[Fluff]

Beginning to think it would be cheaper to put a CH53 on every carrier, for recovery, rather than salvaging it from 2 miles down.

 

[Josh_TN]

It seems unlikely that a helo could recover an aircraft before it sinks under most any condition.

 

[Sferrin]

It seems unlikely that a helo could recover an aircraft before it sinks under most any condition.

Even a CH-53K couldn't have lifted it out of the water. Assuming they could manage to hook it up before it sank, it might be able to keep it from sinking (assuming buoyancy cooperated enough) while they did. . .something (I doubt they have air bladders handy to strap to an aircraft to keep it from sinking.)

 

[Sferrin]

Beginning to think it would be cheaper to put a CH53 on every carrier, for recovery, rather than salvaging it from 2 miles down.

You do realize aircraft have been skating off decks, and being recovered, for half a century, right?

 

[FighterJock]

Just found this video on YouTube, I do not know if this video is true or not but it appears that the F-35 has been knocked out of Canada's competition to search for the successor to the F/A-18 Hornet.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvFFnM7IjYw

The video (or description, it's the same text) tells the opposite story that the title implies (which happens to be nothing new for those who have been following the program).

#Lockheed #Martin's #f35 knocked out of #Canadian competition? For those trying to predict the future outcome of #Canada #fighter #aircraft competition, the two announcements in the weeks before Christmas seem to tilt the field in favor of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. The first was a story leaked over the US Thanksgiving weekend in late November that the Canadian government had selected two bidders to replace its aging Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) fleet of the #CF18 Hornet, and the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Block III. The Super Hornet is not among them. The second came a few weeks later, on December 9, when the Finnish government announced the selection of the F-35 for the HX fighter aircraft program to replace the F/A-18 Hornet fleet. Like Canada, that competition includes the Boeing Super Hornet, Saab Gripen E,

Further proving the old adage that any news story with a question mark on its title can be answered with a "no".

The image of the Canadian PM also seems to be from before he became a PM, back in 2015 when he was campaigning against the F-35.

So the video is nothing to be concerned about then, I will wait until the real announcement is made. Thanks.

 

[Fluff]

Beginning to think it would be cheaper to put a CH53 on every carrier, for recovery, rather than salvaging it from 2 miles down.

You do realize aircraft have been skating off decks, and being recovered, for half a century, right?

'We've always done it this way'.......

........Yes, but they didnt cost $100M and even if other states recovered them, they mostly couldn't replicate them.

Maybe an LCAC would be more useful?

I'm just suggesting that it might be time to review/create some form of rapid recovery option, as we seem to have had time to get photos, but not time to get a line on it....

 

[BillRo]

Possible footage of the deck strike.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1486913025999208452

View: https://twitter.com/raz_liu/status/1486913025999208452?t=0YWigko0GFploX7nViQPWw&s=19

May have originated on Instagram though..
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZQMKfeJN-7/

I'm not familiar with standard procedures for carrier landings. However, in this video it appears the aircraft was lined up with the flightdeck very late. Was it an emergency? Another observation: Apparently the carrier made a rather sharp turn short before the accident happened.

So the carrier deck landing video has been leaked. A ramp strike took off the gear, the aircraft skidded along the deck, caught fire and went over the side.

 

[Josh_TN]

Beginning to think it would be cheaper to put a CH53 on every carrier, for recovery, rather than salvaging it from 2 miles down.

You do realize aircraft have been skating off decks, and being recovered, for half a century, right?

'We've always done it this way'.......

........Yes, but they didnt cost $100M and even if other states recovered them, they mostly couldn't replicate them.

Maybe an LCAC would be more useful?

I'm just suggesting that it might be time to review/create some form of rapid recovery option, as we seem to have had time to get photos, but not time to get a line on it....

Any recovery from the ocean's surface assumes that the airframe floats for a long enough time that some kind of rapid reaction unit could stabilize it there. I suspect that is a very rare occurrence. In terms of cost, I doubt F-35s are dramatically more expensive than their forbearers when adjusted for inflation. A quick wiki of the F-14 would imply it was just as expensive in its day.

 

[Sferrin]

Beginning to think it would be cheaper to put a CH53 on every carrier, for recovery, rather than salvaging it from 2 miles down.

You do realize aircraft have been skating off decks, and being recovered, for half a century, right?

'We've always done it this way'.......

........Yes, but they didnt cost $100M and even if other states recovered them, they mostly couldn't replicate them.

Maybe an LCAC would be more useful?

I'm just suggesting that it might be time to review/create some form of rapid recovery option, as we seem to have had time to get photos, but not time to get a line on it....

99% of the time there are good reasons for "we've always done it this way" that's WHY "we've always done it this way". Lastly, I wasn't even SAYING current procedure was good or not. All I was saying is planes have been going in the drink forever. People are acting like this is some new thing that's never happened before.

 

[BillRo]

Here is a link to the Navy F-35 ramp strike and crash.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...h-lands-aircraft-carrier-USS-Carl-Vinson.html

 

[Dragon029]

I'm not familiar with standard procedures for carrier landings. However, in this video it appears the aircraft was lined up with the flightdeck very late. Was it an emergency? Another observation: Apparently the carrier made a rather sharp turn short before the accident happened.

I think you are correct in your assumptions: it looks like as if it was some kind of unusual recovery. But it might be some kind of training also.

I know one rumour going around (though completely unsubstantiated at this stage, so take it with a ton of salt; there's a number of other possibilities) is that the aviator was attempting a "shit-hot break" which is when they approach the rear of the carrier at high speed and then perform one big 360 degree turn to burn off their energy, deploy gears / hook and land (here's a video of an example). These aren't done too often (it's often said they're done for clout, though there's some obvious military utility to landing ASAP rather than doing a full circuit pattern) as they're unnecessarily risky due to the significantly reduced time the pilot has to configure the jet for landing, go through their checklists, and to settle into the appropriate approach airspeed, angle and glideslope.

If the F-35C was trying to pull one off and their focus wasn't where it should be, it's possible they may have thought they were coming in too high, decreased their glideslope (the DFP flight control software on F-35Cs (and Super Hornets these days) gives pilots the ability to directly control glideslope rather than pitch, etc during approach), and then after realising they were coming in too low, tried to bring the jet back up but was too late.

If that's the case, it would primarily be human error; I don't recall if DFP is just always enabled when the gear is down or if the pilot can override it (presumably the latter), but without DFP they might have been able to pull the nose higher and (if they didn't stall it) avoid the deck. Of course, with DFP the jet is much easier (and therefore safer) to get onto a deck 99.9% of the time.

 

[TomcatViP]

@Dragon029 : Nice video!
Regarding the SH break, as @VTOLicious noticed, the carrier just went out of a sharp turn. Unless this is also a standard procedure, it will be hard (but awesome!) to have both the ship and the aircraft attempt donuts prior to the latter landing.

 

[aonestudio]

https://news.usni.org/2022/02/07/navy-investigating-leaked-footage-of-f-35c-lightning-ii-ramp-strike

 

[GTX]

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/finland-signs-for-f-35s

 

[NeilChapman]

https://www.heritage.org/defense/co...ked-the-f-35-price-the-pentagon-should-listen
Interesting to note author does not include expected annual flight hours. I mean, it's the Swiss. How much can they be flying each year? The country is over 2.5 times smaller than Ohio.

I don't know the exact numbers but looking at the fact that the Swiss put 50,000 flying hrs on their Hornet fleet in about 10yrs, one is looking at something in the vicinity of 5000hrs/yr for the main fighter fleet (excluding the F-5s).

Also, there's flying, and there's flying.
I've understood that US military jets spend a lot of time just cruising along: going from point A to point B. Not sure about Swiss flight profiles but the Finnish ones tend to have you manoevring soon after take off. You don't necessarily need long distances to fly lots of hours and pull lots of Gs.

Very interesting. Just the type of thoughtful feedback one can expect from this forum. Thanks guys!

 

[NeilChapman]

Without even going into the politics of it all a lot of the “pro” for the potential Super Hornet would be capabilities of the Growler portion of the buy in the SEAD and wider jammer role; purely as a B61 delivery platform it’s not even particularly close for the Super Hornet versus the F-35.
So apart from the politics alot may come down to the urgency and weight given to that SEAD role versus the B61 related role.

there is a third opportunity is gradually cut down Luftwaffe, think about it, no more euros spending for wargames
hold on only helicopter groups for civil emergency tasks
IMO it will be right way for Germany

Well, technically, that's what they've been doing for the last two decades by not financing maintenance. Just sayin'...

 

[NeilChapman]

Wonder if anyone would be looking at data corruption ("Chinese were all around" ).

Let's leave out speculation like that please. Odds are this was just an accident the likes of which have happened numerous times over the years.

Ahhhh no. It would be completely irresponsible to not investigate this possibility.

But, yes, screwup is the likeliest cause unless the automated landing system was in use.

 

[zebra159357]

Not sure where to put this, moderators feel free to move the comment to a correct section.

https://www.defensenews.com/news/yo...are-stagnating-heres-the-plan-to-change-that/

 

[TomcatViP]

Martin said the F-35 squadrons should “get bigger.”

“Right now, we’re probably going to go to a 14-aircraft squadron vice 10,” he said. “I’ve heard noise of us thinking around the possibility of going to a 20-aircraft squadron.”

Several crew members on the carrier told Defense News they struggled with the high “deck density,” or the number of aircraft given the amount of space on the flight deck and the hangar bay, early in the deployment.

But they said it got easier as they learned more about how to move the aircraft around. The F-35C, for example, is smaller than the F/A-18 Super Hornet, but the F-35 requires more and larger ground support equipment. Simply adding more F-35Cs without taking anything away would definitely make it harder to tow aircraft around and manage the flight deck, but Martin said the new fighters add significant capabilities for the strike group.

“It’s a brand-new aircraft with advanced sensors, so we like to pair that with a Growler to complement each other. And when you fly around that theater … they pull so much into the cockpit; the sensors onboard can see activity that other aircraft cannot,” he said.

Though his air wing already had two more Growlers that a typical air wing, Martin said “we’re advocating for more because we saw the value of that aircraft in theater.”

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...ays-from-the-us-navys-first-f-35c-deployment/

 

[Josh_TN]

If they went to 20, wouldn't it be worth going to a two squadron structure? Also it's weird to me that space would be an issue given how large some of the 80's air wings were. I would have thought an entire extra squadron could be bedded down without too much of a throughput issue.

 

[Sferrin]

Whatever happened to having, for example, 2 x 12 squadrons of fighters? CVNs were designed for wings of roughly 85-90 aircraft. We should take advantage of that.

 

[NeilChapman]

Not sure where to put this, moderators feel free to move the comment to a correct section.

https://www.defensenews.com/news/yo...are-stagnating-heres-the-plan-to-change-that/
View attachment 674228

From the report...
"Most notably, a serious shortage of fully functional F135 engines — felt most acutely in the Air Force’s F-35A fleet — and a lack of depot capacity worsened the fighter’s availability."

Shortage of engines and depot capabilities in inexcusable. Does anyone have any insight into this engine issue?

* never mind about this question. I found some answers re the engine issues.

Do maintainers actually "fix" engines or are they pulled and sent to depots for repair? What level of repair are maintainers able to complete? For instance, would they be able to switch out the problem blades if available?

What's the possibility of engineering these engines to greater than 2000 hrs between overhauls? Or identifying components that can be swapped out in the field to increase the time between overhauls to something like 2500 hours?

 

[Fluff]

Not sure where to put this, moderators feel free to move the comment to a correct section.

https://www.defensenews.com/news/yo...are-stagnating-heres-the-plan-to-change-that/
View attachment 674228

From the report...
"Most notably, a serious shortage of fully functional F135 engines — felt most acutely in the Air Force’s F-35A fleet — and a lack of depot capacity worsened the fighter’s availability."

Shortage of engines and depot capabilities in inexcusable. Does anyone have any insight into this engine issue?

* never mind about this question. I found some answers re the engine issues.

Do maintainers actually "fix" engines or are they pulled and sent to depots for repair? What level of repair are maintainers able to complete? For instance, would they be able to switch out the problem blades if available?

What's the possibility of engineering these engines to greater than 2000 hrs between overhauls? Or identifying components that can be swapped out in the field to increase the time between overhauls to something like 2500 hours?

Great report : Hydraulic components give the stealth aircraft the lift it needs to glide through the sky.

I dont remember it this way, from my Principles of flight lessons.....

Anyway to answer your questions - if we talk about an operational squadron, then the sqn maintainers are there to make minor repairs, basic maintenance, fault finding, and component replacement, so oils, wear parts(leaks/seals), tyres, brakes. For engines, accessories, i.e. oil pumps, hyd pumps, fuel system components. Basically anything you can easily get at, without dropping the engine.

The only blade repairs I ever saw on aircraft, would be to smooth very minor damage, with very clear limits of material removal on the blades, i.e. small stones damage.

The engine maintainers will then do 'condition based' monitoring, so sampling the oil, looking for metal contamination, i.e. bearing failure etc. they would drop an engine if it gives you access to a faulty component, but they wouldnt open up a full engine, in the operational area. The engine would go off to an engine bay, maybe on the same base, for overhaul - but this could be fitting of complete modules, with the modules being overhauled 'by industry'.

The comments about the hydraulic system repairs, being moved onto the bases, is interesting, sounds like they have invested in ground hyd power units, able to operate the whole aircraft(i.e. without starting the aircraft engines) For a B2 this would be a pretty big bit of kit.

 

[In_A_Dream]

Any word on the F-35 in the SCS?

New article from the USNI mirroring the defensenews.com article above. Seems to ignore any details about the incident or the pilot responsible. The Carl Vinson is back in San Diego.

https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/ca...r-5th-gen-aviation-pacific-carrier-operations

 

[Sferrin]

Any word on the F-35 in the SCS?

New article from the USNI mirroring the defensenews.com article above. Seems to ignore any details about the incident or the pilot responsible. The Carl Vinson is back in San Diego.

https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/ca...r-5th-gen-aviation-pacific-carrier-operations

And that's a problem because. . .? Planes crash. This isn't the first and it won't be the last. Cost of doing business.

 

[TomcatViP]

Any word on the F-35 in the SCS?

New article from the USNI mirroring the defensenews.com article above. Seems to ignore any details about the incident or the pilot responsible. The Carl Vinson is back in San Diego.

https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/ca...r-5th-gen-aviation-pacific-carrier-operations

In fact, in the Defense News report, there is a slight note to the extensive training that occurred for rapid change in carrier trajectory... Something that we witnessed in the crash video.

 

[In_A_Dream]

And that's a problem because. . .? Planes crash. This isn't the first and it won't be the last. Cost of doing business.

Because I'm interested in it.

 

[jeffb]

Reductions in F-35 flying hours? Is this a thing?

 

[Sferrin]

And that's a problem because. . .? Planes crash. This isn't the first and it won't be the last. Cost of doing business.

Because I'm interested in it.

There are already many many articles out there about it.

 

[Sferrin]

Reductions in F-35 flying hours? Is this a thing?

View attachment 674315

If you don't pay the money to keep your fighters flying they won't fly. Who'd have guessed?

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1493732016025526274

View: https://twitter.com/1stMAW_Marines/status/1493732016025526274

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...within-45-minutes-of-f-35c-crash-leaders-say/

 

[TomcatViP]

From the above linked article:

The F-35C ripped out all four arresting gear wires, which are used to catch the tailhook on a jet and stop them on the flight deck

!!

(nice read by the way)

 

[GTX]

Reductions in F-35 flying hours? Is this a thing?

Statement from Chief of Air Force – Flying Hours for the F-35A Lightning ll​

15 February 2022

---

I reject criticisms made in The Australian article ‘Defence revises down planned availability of the F-35A jet fleet’. The criticisms contained are completely unfounded.

The Royal Australian Air Force has revised the expected flying hours based on our maturing understanding of the F-35A capability requirements and our expected build-up of the capability.

Forward estimate flying hours are based on training and capability requirements, not availability.

To use the basic singular metric of flying hours, to suggest that the F-35A is not satisfying its operational and training requirements, is misleading and simply false.

I can confirm the JSF program has met all of its tasking commitments, such as exercises, verification and validation activities and training requirements.

In total, Australia has flown more than 15,000 hours in the aircraft.

The project is delivering to the 2014 Government approved budget and schedule and has already achieved the key initial operational capability milestone of one operational F-35A squadron and training unit by December 2020. In 2021, the program stood up a second operational squadron and a third is occurring in 2022.

 

[Hydroman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1493732016025526274

View: https://twitter.com/1stMAW_Marines/status/1493732016025526274

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...within-45-minutes-of-f-35c-crash-leaders-say/

Go NAVY!

 

[TomS]

From the above linked article:

The F-35C ripped out all four arresting gear wires, which are used to catch the tailhook on a jet and stop them on the flight deck

!!

(nice read by the way)

Interesting that despite rushing to clear the deck so they could launch the alert tanker, they still had to recover aircraft to another deck instead. If this had happened during single-carrier blue-water operations, that's a lot of aircraft potentially going in the drink.

 

[Fluff]

From the above linked article:

The F-35C ripped out all four arresting gear wires, which are used to catch the tailhook on a jet and stop them on the flight deck

!!

(nice read by the way)

Interesting that despite rushing to clear the deck so they could launch the alert tanker, they still had to recover aircraft to another deck instead. If this had happened during single-carrier blue-water operations, that's a lot of aircraft potentially going in the drink.

I'd imagine if that was the case, then only 1 fod plod would have been done, string one cable, and land the damn planes. Better to try, and save 50% than lose them all. They had another CV, and they had a bit of time. Good training exercise, out of a problem.

 

[jeffb]

Reductions in F-35 flying hours? Is this a thing?

Statement from Chief of Air Force – Flying Hours for the F-35A Lightning ll​

15 February 2022

---

I reject criticisms made in The Australian article ‘Defence revises down planned availability of the F-35A jet fleet’. The criticisms contained are completely unfounded.

The Royal Australian Air Force has revised the expected flying hours based on our maturing understanding of the F-35A capability requirements and our expected build-up of the capability.

Forward estimate flying hours are based on training and capability requirements, not availability.

To use the basic singular metric of flying hours, to suggest that the F-35A is not satisfying its operational and training requirements, is misleading and simply false.

I can confirm the JSF program has met all of its tasking commitments, such as exercises, verification and validation activities and training requirements.

In total, Australia has flown more than 15,000 hours in the aircraft.

The project is delivering to the 2014 Government approved budget and schedule and has already achieved the key initial operational capability milestone of one operational F-35A squadron and training unit by December 2020. In 2021, the program stood up a second operational squadron and a third is occurring in 2022.

Thanks GTX. More media bullshit, who'd have guessed it?

 

[TomcatViP]

900th center fuselage section delivered by NG:

https://www.aero-mag.com/northrop-grumman-f-35-16022022