Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[TomcatViP]

Deep dive (once again) into the everlasting next generation fighter for Canada.

A minor correction tough: Switzerland, which had a very similar acquisition profile recently, found that the F-35A was the cheapest of two of the three in-line for Canada.

Obviously this doesn't sideline the chances of the E-Gripen (doesn't it look more sexy that way?) but understanding the NORAD criteria, the odds are thin.
IMOHO, Trudeau II (or is that III already?) should transform his own biased take on the subject by selecting a combined fleet of Grip and 35, what would give him an honorable exit strategy from that debacle. If long term statistics are favorable, History will see him as a procurement genius or, if not, just forget that fact.

The odds also are that De-Havilland and Saab could work in partnership in the next medium regional jet or prop, opening opportunities for both.

Will Canada ever get its new fighter jets?

The Canadian government has been on the hunt for a next-generation plane for its military. Six years on, there is no clear choice ahead.

www.politico.com

 

[EwenS]

The odds also are that De-Havilland and Saab could work in partnership in the next medium regional jet or prop, opening opportunities for both.

Will Canada ever get its new fighter jets?

The Canadian government has been on the hunt for a next-generation plane for its military. Six years on, there is no clear choice ahead.

www.politico.com

Your informaation about Canadian Aircraft companies is a bit out of date.

It was Bombardier that was, and still is, working with Saab. Its aviation activities are now limited to the bizjet market with Learjet, Challenger and Global ranges. It is their bizjet Global range that is now the basis of Saab's Globaleye AEW&C system. But it has ditched most of its other aviation projects in an attempt to restore its finances. So:-

The Q400 project and rights to the De Havilland name and trademarks are now owned by Longview Aviation Capital. This was added to the DHC1-7 portfolio it already held through its Viking Air subsidiary from 2006 and consolidated under the De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited banner. That was in 2018/19. It seems that production has now stopped due to a lack of orders, and if it restarts it will be in a new location.

The C Series small airliner project became the Airbus A220 in 2018 when Airbus rescued it by taking a stake. Since Feb 2020 that is owned Airbus 75%, Quebec Govt 25%. There are production lines both in Canada and in Alabama.

The Bombardier CRJ, which grew out of the bizjet line back in the late 1980s, was sold off in 2019/20 to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and production in Canada has now ceased. I've not heard what MHI's palns are for the future.

So I very much doubt that Bombardier will be getting involved in the "medium regional jet or prop" market for a long time if at all.

 

[TomcatViP]

@EwenS : Thanks for the correction. I was more referring to a Q400 successor, hence me naming De Havilland.

 

[Sferrin]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

 

[TomcatViP]

Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 242 declares initial operational capability for the F-35B aircraft on Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, Japan, on Sept. 9, 2021.

A 10 month only conversion!

Another Japan-based F-35 squadron is ready for operations

The Marine Corps squadron's F-35B fighter jets are now “taskable and combat capable on a limited basis” while they work up to becoming fully combat capable.

www.defensenews.com

 

[bobbymike]

Pratt Pushes Alternative to New Adaptive Engine for F-35 | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Engine maker Pratt & Whitney says an updated version of its F135 engine is what the F-35 fighter needs, not an entirely new adaptive engine.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Fluff]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

if in a real war you could make them unmanned, you could play some great mind games with the enemy.....

How many aircraft is Canada looking for?

 

[kitnut617]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

if in a real war you could make them unmanned, you could play some great mind games with the enemy.....

How many aircraft is Canada looking for?

About half of what the UK wants

 

[Fluff]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

if in a real war you could make them unmanned, you could play some great mind games with the enemy.....

How many aircraft is Canada looking for?

About half of what the UK wants

70 ish? Thats a bit small to split in two, with all the duplicated costs....

 

[kitnut617]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

if in a real war you could make them unmanned, you could play some great mind games with the enemy.....

How many aircraft is Canada looking for?

About half of what the UK wants

70 ish? Thats a bit small to split in two, with all the duplicated costs....

Canada is already producing parts for the program, only a couple of months ago it was reported that the government handed over more millions to the development costs even though the government is sitting on the fence about buying them.

The present government seems to think that because the country is producing parts, that if they choose another aircraft, they will still be involved with producing parts for the F-35.

But lets wait and see what happens in just over a week from now ----

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

GE Says New Engine for F-35 Possible by 2027, but Not on STOVL Version | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Congress is considering calling for a new F-35 engine based on the Adaptive Engine Technology Program by 2027, and GE says it can be done.

www.airforcemag.com

GE confirms that the XA100 wasn’t designed with the F-35B in mind, broadly confirming P&W’s statement that AETD wasn’t really designed with much STOVL considerations.

The debate over cost (especially in sustainment) versus capability will be pretty interesting in the coming years.

 

[rooster]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

If you have read my previous posts I am ANTI CHEAPO fighter. I don't know how or by what rational train of thought you had from what I stated can lead anyone to your conclusion.

 

[TomcatViP]

A fully stealth NATO fighter-bomber package:

Whiteman B-2s Integrate with Norwegian F-35s | Air & Space Forces Magazine

A pair of US Air Force B-2s integrated with F-35s from Norway over the North Sea on Sept. 8 as part of a recent Bomber Task Force deployment.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Forest Green]

First US Navy carrier strike group to deploy with F-35C stealth fighters sails into the South China Sea​

• The Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group sailed into the South China Sea this week carrying stealth fighters.
• The Carl Vinson is the first US Navy aircraft carrier to deploy with F-35Cs.
• Chinese state-affiliated media criticized the carrier's arrival, calling it a "provocative deployment."

A deployed US Navy aircraft carrier sailed into the South China Sea this week carrying F-35 stealth fighters in a first for the service.

The Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group departed San Diego early last month, making history at it sailed into the Pacific.

At that time, the Nimitz-class carrier USS Carl Vinson became the first US Navy aircraft carrier to deploy with an integrated air wing consisting of both fourth-generation F/A-18 Super Hornets and fifth-generation F-35C Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters.

First US Navy carrier strike group to deploy with F-35C stealth fighters sails into the South China Sea (yahoo.com)

 

[TomcatViP]

"These contracts represent more than a 30% reduction in cost per flying hour from the 2020 annualized contract, and exemplify the trusted partnership and commitment we share to reduce sustainment costs and increase availability for this unrivaled 5th generation weapon system," Bridget Lauderdale, Lockheed Martin vice president, said.

Pentagon awards Lockheed Martin $6.6 bln sustainment contract for F-35 fighter jets

The Pentagon has awarded Lockheed Martin Corp annualized contracts worth up to $6.6 billion to support operations and sustainment of the global F-35 fleet, its F-35 Joint Program Office said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Deltafan]

Two more complete articles about this contract :

Lockheed nabs F-35 sustainment contract worth up to $6.6B

The cost per flying hour is set to decrease by 8 percent over the contract period, the Pentagon stated.

www.defensenews.com

New $6.6 Billion F-35 Sustainment Contract Paves Way for Performance-Based Logistics Deal | Air & Space Forces Magazine

A new F-35 sustainment contract between the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin sets lower costs per flying hour goals for the fighter.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Archibald]

Can't help thinking - how many flying hours "8% cheaper", to recoup that $6.6 billion investment ?
Those F-35s will have to fly a lot to pay the large sum spent to make them fly cheaper.
...
33000 dollar the flying hour, saving 8% would save 2640 dollars.
A simple division give the following result
2820512.8 rounded: 2 820 513 hours.
Nearly 3 million hours.
...
Reminds me of Homer Simpson blowing Lisa room with fireworks. Looking at the devastation, all he can says is
"Geez, it's gonna take a lot of fireworks to clean up the mess done by these fireworks".
ROTFL

 

[TomcatViP]

@Archibald : The contract does include parts, infrastructure and training!

Separately, Lockheed said that the contract would include supporting base and depot maintenance, pilot and maintainer training while also covering supply chain management for part repair and replenishment.

 

[Archibald]

You guess, I'm lousy at maths. Blame my high school teacher, Mr Baisecourt (since you are french, you can appreciate the irony of how his name was appropriate - without our distinguished english members blowing a fuse at a silly or crass joke. It was his real name, I swear).

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

U.S. Navy Comes Full Circle On JASSM Program | Aviation Week Network

After several cancellations over decades, the Navy’s revived interest in the Joint Air-to-Surface Missile family also reveals pursuit of more capabilities for it.

aviationweek.com

I’m not sure if there is a dedicated JASSM thread, so I suppose I’ll post it here, maybe the Super Hornet thread as well.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I could have sworn we had one.

 

[bobbymike]

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

 

[Manuducati]

MQ-25 conducts first air-to-air refueling with F-35C

NAVAL AIR SYSTEMS COMMAND, Patuxent River, Md. - The Navy’s Unmanned Carrier Aviation (PMA-268) program completed its first aerial refueling of an F-35C Lightning II aircraft by the Boeing-owned MQ-25

www.navy.mil

 

[TomcatViP]

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

“We’ve got great interest here in Europe, [and] not only the competition ongoing with Finland. ... We have interest in three or four other countries that are talking to us right now,” Gary North, vice president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said during a meeting with reporters.

Who the hell can it be (finger crossed that one is France)?

Portugal, Greece, Austria?

 

[TomcatViP]

Some good view of the F-35 simulator:

View: https://youtu.be/ZAzStwAVnd8

 

[Sferrin]

"A handful of F-35s can accomplish the same mission objectives, or desired effects, as it might take 12, 15, 20, 25 or more other aircraft."

This argument may cut both ways. Sure keeping on buying the F-35 is the better alternative, but if its so effective, why need a 1-1 replacement with legacy fleet.

You still need to be physically there with an asset covering airspace with regards to air combat. The ground threats have also changed and improved since the 90s and are likewise more effective. Any modern fight with a peer adversary is going to last a week or two and I would prefer to have more than just enough that is needed in a simulation.

Sure a f22 can defeat 6 migs but it can replicate itself to be everywhere at once. And so it is with the F-35.

Your el-cheapo fighter won't do you any good if all it does is show up to get shot down.

If you have read my previous posts I am ANTI CHEAPO fighter. I don't know how or by what rational train of thought you had from what I stated can lead anyone to your conclusion.

How are you going to buy multiple fighters for the price of one F-22 or F-35 if it isn't cheap?

 

[Deltafan]

Adding New AETP Engine to F-35 Means Air Force Alone Would Pay for It | Air & Space Forces Magazine

If the Air Force decides to use the Adaptive Engine Technology Program in its F-35 fleet, it will have to take on the full cost, Lt. Gen. Eric T. Fick said.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[timmymagic]

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

“We’ve got great interest here in Europe, [and] not only the competition ongoing with Finland. ... We have interest in three or four other countries that are talking to us right now,” Gary North, vice president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said during a meeting with reporters.

Who the hell can it be (finger crossed that one is France)?

Portugal, Greece, Austria?

You'd think that there are preliminary discussions underway with Spain regarding a small number of F-35B.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Who the hell can it be (finger crossed that one is France)?

Portugal, Greece, Austria?

Nations that come to mind are: Greece, Spain and Finland (they were already mentioned though, so I don't think they count)

Other possibilities are: France (maybe, but really depends on the politicians), Germany (unlikely), Romania (very unlikely), Portugal (maybe, but probably not)

This is all speculation on my part, by the way, this is in now way any sort of hard news.

 

[Manuducati]

I can't see any scenario where France would buy the F-35.

 

[bring_it_on]

Greece has sent a formal LOR for F-35's and Spain surely would be part of any future discussion. The third would be Croatia which LM has previously recognized as an interested nation.

Croatia has shown interest in F-35 jets - Lockheed executive

Lockheed Martin co, the United States' largest weapons maker, has fielded interest from Croatia regarding the purchase of stealthy F-35 jets, a Lockheed executive said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

 

[TomcatViP]

Croatia was given 12 ex-FrAF Rafale F3R. It would be surprising if they buy more.

Croatia to drop â¬1 billion on used Rafale fighter jets

Croatiaâs government has made a decision to buy 12 second-hand Rafale F3-R fighter jets from France for the countryâs Air Force, Croatian Prime Minister Andrej PlenkoviÄ said.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I'll be surprised if they have the budget to do so. Apart from that, jumping from the MiG-21 to the Rafale was already a big jump, let alone jumping from the MiG-21 to the F-35. I'll be honest, it doesn't make much sense for them.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Some more F-35 news. It seems that British and Italian F-35 fleets are going to get a weapons capability enhancement from BAE and MBDA:

British F-35 jets to receive weapon capability enhancements

The funding allows for the SPEAR precision surface attack weapon and the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile to be integrated onto British and Italian F-35 jets.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Hood]

My money is on some of those nations being ex-Warsaw Pact nations, Romania maybe?
Spanish F-35Bs to put on the Juan Carlos?

 

[timmymagic]

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

DSEI NEWS Lockheed Martin in Talks With Potential European F35 Customers

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

“We’ve got great interest here in Europe, [and] not only the competition ongoing with Finland. ... We have interest in three or four other countries that are talking to us right now,” Gary North, vice president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said during a meeting with reporters.

Who the hell can it be (finger crossed that one is France)?

Portugal, Greece, Austria?

You'd think that there are preliminary discussions underway with Spain regarding a small number of F-35B.

Other possibilities are: France (maybe, but really depends on the politicians), Germany (unlikely), Romania (very unlikely), Portugal (maybe, but probably not)

I would have thought that conversations with the German's were possible around a small fleet of F-35 for B-61 delivery. The SuperHornet/Growler deal hasn't been signed and has been very quiet to say the least recently. Truth is the costs of integration of B-61/12 to SuperHornet and the recent loss of conformal tanks may have given the German's cold feet....hope springs eternal that they go for 30 odd F-35 for the nuclear role (and learn a lot about LO operations before FCAS arrives) and buy more Typhoon in an EW version...

 

[TomcatViP]

F-35 and NATO:

View: https://youtu.be/tDeCZquok_M

 

[GTX]

F-35 and NATO:

I must admit that I find it slightly amusing that a lot of the footage in this video is of RAAF F-35s...tad far from NATO

 

[rooster]

First US Navy carrier strike group to deploy with F-35C stealth fighters sails into the South China Sea​

• The Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group sailed into the South China Sea this week carrying stealth fighters.
• The Carl Vinson is the first US Navy aircraft carrier to deploy with F-35Cs.
• Chinese state-affiliated media criticized the carrier's arrival, calling it a "provocative deployment."

A deployed US Navy aircraft carrier sailed into the South China Sea this week carrying F-35 stealth fighters in a first for the service.

The Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group departed San Diego early last month, making history at it sailed into the Pacific.

At that time, the Nimitz-class carrier USS Carl Vinson became the first US Navy aircraft carrier to deploy with an integrated air wing consisting of both fourth-generation F/A-18 Super Hornets and fifth-generation F-35C Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters.

First US Navy carrier strike group to deploy with F-35C stealth fighters sails into the South China Sea (yahoo.com)

Whatever happened to the issue of the nose gear causing painful cat launches?

 

[TomcatViP]

It was claimed that this was a non-issue and if my mem stands right it appeared as solved in latter reports.

Also, the late PBL contract forces LM into sharing more proprietary data with the services:

Lockheed Must Give Up Data to Get Shot at Long-Term F-35 Maintenance Contract | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin must give up technical data to have a chance at long-term maintenance contracts in support of the F-35 fighter, a top general said.

www.airforcemag.com