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Lippisch Projects P.12, 13 and 14

KJ_Lesnick

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How come the Lippisch P.13A manage to get away with Mach 2.6 performance with such thick wings which would have been tested in a supersonic wind-tunnel the Germans had (And I think they tested a glider with the same wing-shape) and the XP-92 which was actually slower (Mach 2.0) needed much thinner wings?

Kendra Lesnick
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

What was tested in the wind tunnel was stability. The P.13a design was supposedly stable to Mach 2.6.

If it had been built, they would likely have discovered that drag was massively too high even for Mach 1. Flying fast requires that thrust exceed drag. With design features like that fat wing, leaving aside whether the coal powered engine would have worked, I can't see it going fast.

You need to bear in mind the difference between a drawing and a glider and a real plane.
 

zbvhs

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

The XP-92 was strictly subsonic. The prototype of the follow-on F-102 was also unable to go supersonic until the fuselage was redesigned with area rule.
 

KJ_Lesnick

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

zbvhs,

I thought the XP-92 could go supersonic, but the F-102 (prior to the A) couldn't...
 

Vietcong

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Some sources said that the P 13a powered prototype never produced but I don't know why I have this on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvtxjSrImHw
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Looks unmanned... Could also be fake footage done nowadays by some guy who thinks it's funny...
 

Mark Nankivil

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

I think that is an unpowered model being catapult launched on a hillside. With Lippisch's background in soaring, that method was used from some aerodynamic testing.

Just a thought... Mark
 

Orionblamblam

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Mark Nankivil said:
I think that is an unpowered model being catapult launched on a hillside.

Lippisch did a *lot* of that. When I was at Iowa State U, part of the Lippisch Collection was a bunch of films of exactly that sort of thing. I didn't have a means of copying them (and certainly couldn't afford to pay to have them copied), but hopefully in the intervening years they've been transferred to some other medium.
 

Jemiba

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

IF not a fake (And that's really difficult to prove!), it's quite clearly not a real
aircraft, the canopy would be recognisable in the stills otherwise (Don't think,
they would have used such an aircraft for blind-flying training ! ;) ). And the
landscape doesn't look suited very well for a real airfield, does it ? Could be
a model test by the Lippisch team of course, but be aware, that, instead of photo-
shopping such a film, it's much easier to build a flyable scale model and make a
b/w-film with it. Alexander Lippisch did a lot of aerodynamical research, but
after the war, Convair still had to do quite a lot of work, to make their deltas
supersonic. Would it have been necessary, if the "P.13a" already was a "ready-
to-use" supersonic fighter, as often is claimed today and in the title of that film ?
 

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Orionblamblam

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Jemiba said:
IF not a fake (And that's really difficult to prove!)

Not necessarily. Someone could simply contact the Iowa State U library, special collections department, and ask someone:

Descriptive summary
creator:
Lippisch, Alexander (1894-1976)

title:
Papers

dates:
1897-1993, n.d.

extent:
69.97 linear ft. (100 document boxes, 9 tubes, 6 map case drawers, 7 lantern slide boxes)

collection number:
MS 243

repository:
Special Collections Department, Iowa State University.



Series 14 Films 1928-1975, n.d.
extent: 12 oversize boxes
description: This series contains 308 films, that deal with a variety of subject matter. They are located in 12 boxes labeled A-L, as follows:

A. Contains 17 films about sailplanes, delta-wings, rocket fighters, Lorin/Ramjet propulsion, smoke tunnels (1928-1953, n.d.)
B. 50 films about smoke and various smoke tunnel experimentation (1953-1955)
C. 61 films about smoke tunnels (1954-1958)
D. 54 films about smoke tunnels (1952-1958, n.d.)
E. 51 films about smoke tunnels (n.d.)
F. 10 films about smoke tunnels (1953-1954, n.d.)
G. 8 films about smoke tunnels (1951-1952, n.d.)
H. 2 films about smoke tunnels (1953)
I. 20 films about aerodynes (ca. 1952-1972, n.d.)
J. 16 films about ground effect, ground effect aerofoils, and aerofoils (1963-1970, n.d.)
K. 15 films about ground effect-aeroskimmers (1959-1975, n.d.
L. 4 films about aerofoils (1963-1971)

In addition, 18 professionally produced and/or directed films have been separated to the Film Collection. These are listed following boxes A-L.
 

Jemiba

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

That eases the task considerably ! With regards to the dates, what we are looking for, can only
be found in box A or maybe in E. Nevertheless, even if this film would be found there, the claim
of the "supersonic fighter" remains unproven. But usually, people awarding such titles don't
bother much with facts !
 

hole in the ground

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

in the video at about 0:10 there is a quick shot of a wind tunnel model. There appears to be a forward squarish surface. Are these canards or is it some part of the test rig? If they are canards does anyone know any more about a possible canard'd version?
 

Justo Miranda

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Good question!
Canard, of course....please see aerodynamic wool filaments.
Source
-Lippisch P13a & Experimental DM-1 by Hans Peter Dabrowski
-Schiffer1993
 

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sagallacci

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Its just footage of a model. Lippisch flew a lot of sub-scale models during the war for all kinds of concepts. Seriously no biggy.
 

lark

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Maybe back to the subject again...

Mark Nankivil's thought was very close.

Translated from the German text on page 7 in Justo's source: WaffenArsenal 202

... To investigate the flying characteristics of this unusual design , free flight tests
with a scale model of the P.13 were made from May 1944 on the Spitzenberg near Wien.(Austria)...

So far: Hans-Peter von Dabrowki
 

lark

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Error : must be WaffenArsenal 102... sorry.
 

Johnbr

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Dr Lippisch said the powered Li P.13a was destroyed in a air raid before it was done.
 

Jemiba

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

From "Waffenarsenal Specil Bd.18" by Hans-Peter von Dabrowki:

"Ein paar Versuche mit frei fliegenden Modellen haben noch stattgefunden, ein
antriebsloses 1:1-Muster der P 13 als als P 13a bzw DM-1 gebaut worden. Dieses
in Holzbauweise gefertigte Flugzeug war für einige Studenten der Akademischen Flieger-
gruppen Darmstadt und München die Rettung vor einem sinnlosen Kriegseinsatz"
(Some tests were made with free-flight models and a non-powered 1:1 scale model
of the P 13, designated P 13a or DM-1 was built, too. For several students of the
universities Darm and Munich this wooden aircraft was, at least for some timetheir
rescue against a senseless employment in this war)


This last sentence should be kept in mind, when talking about german projects of the closing
stages of the war, I think. It may reflect some reasons, why projects were started
or kept alive, although their futility or even lack of feasibility was clear.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Vietcong said:
Johnbr said:
Dr Lippisch said the powered Li P.13a was destroyed is a air raid before it was done.
I think it having a test flight at first and later it was destroyed by Allied air raid.

So you know the truth better than the man who designed it? Please, please *think* before you post.

Final warning. You will be banned from posting if you keep up this behaviour.
 

agricola64

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

lark said:
Translated from the German text on page 7 in Justo's source: WaffenArsenal 202

... To investigate the flying characteristics of this unusual design , free flight tests
with a scale model of the P.13 were made from May 1944 on the Spitzenberg near Wien.(Austria)...

So far: Hans-Peter von Dabrowki

small correction - the place is called "Spitzerberg"

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzerberg

the airfield there is still in use and one of leading places to make a glider license here in Austria
 

lark

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Thanks for the additional info and the correction.
 

kiradog

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Here is the section on the P.13 from Lippisch's The Delta Wing.

Great book.

[removed stuff dealing with copyright violation]
 

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lark

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Kiradog,

Beware of copyrights...
 

Skybolt

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Yes, and beware of Moderators, too.... in case you didn't notice.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

A beautiful inboard profile of the Lippisch "LP-13A", as it was called in this 1958 item from a German magazine:
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

I've merged the "Various Lippisch projects" and "Lippisch Li P. 13 test flight" threads, as they
were several overlaps.
Below is a drawig from the latest "Flugzeug Classic Special" issue (N°11) showing the P.12, a
pre-project to the P.13 .
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

Jemiba said:
I've merged the "Various Lippisch projects" and "Lippisch Li P. 13 test flight" threads, as they
were several overlaps.

I have re-split the Lippisch topic to isolate those posts which dealt specifically with the P.13, and P.13A and P.13B projects. We can probably toss P.12 in as well...

Also see these related topics:


Also see the Luft 46 website:
  • http://www.luft46.com/lippisch/lip13a.html
  • http://www.luft46.com/lippisch/lip13b.html
 

shaba

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects


A beautiful inboard profile of the Lippisch "LP-13A", as it was called in this 1958 item from a German magazine:
[/size]
[/size]stargazer do you know if this profile was drawn for the magazine or they where drawn by lippisch himself?
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

shaba said:
stargazer do you know if this profile was drawn for the magazine or they where drawn by lippisch himself?

It is not specified in the article, but judging from the way it is painted and the style of those period magazine, I would be inclined to think this was redrawn by an artist for the magazine, using maybe bad copies of original Lippisch sketches as a basis. In fact it looks more like something from Soviet magazines than German ones!
 

shaba

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Re: Lippisch P.12 and P.13 projects

What i notice is the engine area does not conform to verbal description's i had read such as motor is described as being tilted so that the lower surface is in the "shadows" of the airflow and a flap in-front of the combustion chamber.
 

Vladimir

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Did any one have detaled info, drowings, etc about this unknown (for me) version of the Lippisch p-13? . It have differ nozzle and extended canopy-is it two seater? Note also adjustable flap at the fwd of the wing root...
Thanks
 

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Justo Miranda

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Re: Lippisch P.13A unknown version

My opinion
 

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blackkite

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Re: Lippisch P.13A unknown version

Coal fuel!! :eek:
 

Michel Van

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Re: Lippisch P.13A unknown version

not only coal fuel, it use Tonka-250 and SV-stoff also :eek:

Tonka-250 is 50% triethylamine and 50% xylidine, rocketfuel with nitric acid as a hypergolic oxidizer.
what is
SV-Stoff a mixture 94% nitric acid / 6% dinitrogen tetroxide or 85% nitric acid / 15% sulfuric acid

it must use that for take off by rocket engine, (poor airfield a toxic waste site)
while the Ramjet burns the coal
i don't get how coal produce thrust in that configuration, but it produce hellish black contrail...
 

blackkite

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Re: Lippisch P.13A unknown version

Indeed. We can see small tail rocket engine.
 

Vladimir

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Little-known Lippisch P-14

Hi, Did any have any info about Lippisch Li. P-14?
The wind tunnel model looks that have one rocket nozzle, but in description P 14 was powered a twin-turbojet..Hm-m-m..

sorce:http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Lippisch_Nurflugels/P_14/p_14.html
 

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Arjen

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Re: Lippisch P.13A unknown version

Michel Van said:
Tonka-250 is 50% triethylamine and 50% xylidine, rocketfuel with nitric acid as a hypergolic oxidizer.
*Tonka* rocket fuel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-33XnUh774
 

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