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bobbymike said:
When I was six and played war...

Keep in mind that in "enlightened" regions, they are trying to train children away from playing "war" or "cops and robbers" or "cowboys and indians" or other aggressive sorts of imaginative play, in the dubious hope that by trying to make their children peaceful, that violence will not come to *them.*


OH MY GOD CALL THE UN!!!

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Orionblamblam said:
I've read the classics, including Grimm's fairy tales. Kids have been exposed to death (including genocide) since, well, the invention of kids.

Being exposed to it and openly advocating it are two *very* different things.

Orionblamblam said:
US murder rate: about 4.8 per 100,000. UK: *officially* 1.8... but unofficially, up to about 8.5. It's amazing what you can do when you hide the actual murder stats behind feel-good rubbish.

Let's see: PolitiFact, who debunked the claims, won the Pulitzer Prize. Your "unofficial" source characterizes itself as "Babble by Rick". Nuff said.

Orionblamblam said:
This might surprise you, but I don't care. I'm especially unmoved by your lack of recognition of sarcasm.

Ditto here.

Orionblamblam said:
His own words, which have been published and he has not denied.

Huh - he characterized himself as an unthinking thuggish jackass and professed to lying about it? Source please (and no, not "Babble by Rick" or some such nonsense)

Orionblamblam said:
But, hey, getting back onto the original topic: I guess you can get an estimate of a nations political maturity based on their response to the statements of a child. If they take them seriously, that indicates that they take the opinions of children seriously in political matters *generally.* And if you are giving 6 year olds a voice in geopolitics... well, that's pretty interesting. Not mature, not intelligent, not even sane... but interesting.

Actually, I completely agree. I couldn't care less about the Chinese reaction. I'm troubled by the kid's apparent mindset, and where it might come from. But then again, "reality tv" being what it is these days, it's entirely possible (and by no means improbable) that the entire dialogue was scripted and coached. And then the Chinese might have a point to be miffed after all...
 
bobbymike said:
When I was six and played war I wanted to kill all the Germans and Japanese OH MY GOD CALL THE UN!!!

That would actually support lancer21's contention that this is an endemic mindset in the USA.
 
martinbayer said:
Actually, I completely agree. I couldn't care less about the Chinese reaction. I'm troubled by the kid's apparent mindset, and where it might come from.

And that's what it all boils down to: at the same time the Chinese *government* is openly discussing a genocidal nuclear war against the likes of Japan and the United States, you're getting worked up over a *child* spouting nonsense.



Also: it's sad but predictable that you choose to ignore facts and sources when they conflict with your worldview. The British government itself stated: Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction.

And your much-vaunted Politifact, which does not seem to have bothered to looked at UK government sources, even pointed out: criminologists say differences in how the statistics are collected make it impossible to produce a truly valid comparison


If you are accepting of the notion that the US is over-run with racist propaganda due to a child's yammering, then I can accept that the murder rate in Britain - and probably the rest of Europe - is far higher than advertised due to the way those nations hide the stats behind bureaucratic rubbish. I'll take our loud-mouthed kids over European murderers, any day.
 
Orionblamblam said:
And that's what it all boils down to: at the same time the Chinese *government* is openly discussing a genocidal nuclear war against the likes of Japan and the United States, you're getting worked up over a *child* spouting nonsense.

I'm getting worked up over the idea that a child spouting *offensive* nonsense on national tv is considered *entertainment*. I guess that makes Kimmel's show truly childish.

Orionblamblam said:
Also: it's sad but predictable that you choose to ignore facts and sources when they conflict with your worldview. The British government itself stated: Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction.

And your much-vaunted Politifact, which does not seem to have bothered to looked at UK government sources, even pointed out: criminologists say differences in how the statistics are collected make it impossible to produce a truly valid comparison

I completely agree with the statement that it is impossible to produce a truly valid comparison, but remember that you're the one who was trying to pass of wild guesses ("a murder rate perhaps *twice* that of the US"!) as valid arguments. I'm glad to see though you finally found the light.

Orionblamblam said:
If you are accepting of the notion that the US is over-run with racist propaganda due to a child's yammering, then I can accept that the murder rate in Britain - and probably the rest of Europe - is far higher than advertised due to the way those nations hide the stats behind bureaucratic rubbish. I'll take our loud-mouthed kids over European murderers, any day.

Even for you, that is a truly breathtakingly bizarre leap of logic. Thanks for providing one of the most creative non sequiturs in recent memory :) .
 
martinbayer said:
I'm getting worked up over the idea that a child spouting *offensive* nonsense on national tv is considered *entertainment*.

It's been that way for *decades.* Hell, when *hasn't* it been entertainment? And why limit it to the US? I suspect I can find examples of offensive-kids-as-entertainment pretty much anywhere.

realkid.jpg




Even for you, that is a truly breathtakingly bizarre leap of logic.

It's hardly a "leap of logic." The UK government *admitted* that they don't count all homicides as such. Didn't you bother to read?

Besides: Europes time-averaged violent death rate far exceeds that of the US. It's seen genocide just within the past generation, and has seen *industrialized* genocide within living memory. And from the looks of it, those days may be coming again. No thanks.
 
martinbayer said:
That would actually support lancer21's contention that this is an endemic mindset in the USA.

Only if bobbymike still desires to kill all the Germans and Japanese.

Let's just deconstruct the entire thing.

"The continuous venomous anti-chinese denigration, propaganda, racism you name it that is prevalent in that country and is trumpeted and indoctrinated far and wide in every form, this is why he said it."

No, he said it because the writers figured this would happen: everyone would either laugh or whine, and either way that equates to ratings and exposure. Plus, I'm not sure where all the propaganda and racism is. The government villifies China but it at least has the excuse of being the government and therefore clueless, serving only to find a way to prop up the defense establishment in this case. I live in a pretty large city and if this was widespread throughout US society you'd think I'd be hearing about it. If people can't understand that because 1 guy says something and 1 million people hear it it doesn't mean that those million believe what he says, then education is failing in other places as well.

"And this is why when grown up, kids like him are becoming the stereotypical gun totting violence advocating racist and xenophobe yobs that are prevalent in that country."

I can't tell if this is an anti-right-wing jab, an anti-American jab, an anti-gun jab, all of them at once...? Either way it's ridiculous. Some people have guns. Some people don't. Some people like me don't (because we proved we can't shoot for CRAP) but don't have an issue if someone else wants to. I've advocated both for and against the use of violence in various cases. I pride myself in not caring one bit about someone's color/whatever. And the only foreigners I have an issue with are 1) the delusional morons who think blowing things including themselves up is a good use of their time (it would be if they did it in solitude...), and 2) those who are breaking the law by being here. Because, you know, that's actually ILLEGAL, and I'm happy to explain that you do not get to choose which laws to follow if you want to be representative of a civilized society. And get this...I know a lot of people who think like I do. We might disagree on various political issues but overall we're not really that different. Oh, and I did play war when I was a kid, and I still even...oh crap...play violent video games. Except I can tell the difference between what is reality and what is not. Why is that since it obviously cannot have anything to do with being here, unless you're wrong.

So. Feel free to explain how any of that is accurate. This smells like when the media decided all tea-party members were racists because of a few guys being jackasses. And no, I have no use for them either, they're also deluded (OK they're both deluded, tea party and the media, but for different reasons). Feel free to make such generalizations while the rest of us understand how things actually work around here.

"And this is why when some of these yobs become politicians and run that country, you have these wars like we have today, millions of dead, tens of millions of lives destroyed, and the continuous threat for more."

Oh I get it. This is the "I'm a cool guy I can bash Dubya almost a decade later" argument. How did I not see that one? Or is it an equal opportunity rant, since, you know, Obama didn't run to get us or keep us out of conflict? Either way, guess what: it takes two to tango. If Bin Laden wasn't butthurt over Iraq in '91 he might not have resorted to aerial jackassery. But since he did, yeah, bombs were gonna fall. Or should we sit and take it like Spain? At any rate, I assume most people are smart enough to realize that civilized people don't just decide to blow crap up just to blow crap up. Do we have a reputation for sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong? Yup. Not excusing that. Me, I wouldn't have bothered with Libya, and wouldn't have bothered with Saddam. Either one actually tries to bother us, then you knock them down. But I'm going to assume that people do actually realize that there were reasons behind our sticking our noses in. Doesn't mean I expect anyone to agree with the reasons (I don't in many cases), but there was a thought process involved. And as long as there are people who want to continue being butthurt because we let women drive or something, yeah, there's going to be potential for more. Hell, we could sit here and not do anything and people would still want to take a swing at us because we have extremely asinine Middle East policies. Or because they have no clue about how our political system works, insofar as the people in charge that didn't like you yesterday might be replaced by people willing to like you tomorrow, but they can't see that because they're blinded by ignorance or trying to relive 1979.

"Of course, it's not only the sinophobia, but also arabophobia, russophobia or just about any-other-ethnicity-phobia that is indoctrinated since birth in that country."

Nope, try again. Completely and totally false. Are there going to be cases where you have people that are incapable of being intelligent and therefore adopt piles and piles of racist or X-ist views? Yup, but guess what, I'm willing to bet that happens everywhere. I guess that means that everyone is the same, and since we're all equal, this argument is officially stupid and groundless.
 
Orionblamblam said:
It's hardly a "leap of logic." The UK government *admitted* that they don't count all homicides as such. Didn't you bother to read?

And then you merrily went on to extend that to "probably the rest of Europe" without *any* evidence whatsoever, merely based on the vague unsubstantiated claim that "the way those nations hide the stats behind bureaucratic rubbish" - no sources, no evidence, no differentiation, nothing, simply a made up allegation in the best xenophobic Lowther tradition. Same with your prophecy that genocide might be coming again in Europe. Sure, Nostradamus, it could, but then again the same is true for the US. The question is how likely it would be in either case, and what evidence is there to support such an assumption.
 
SOC said:
Do we have a reputation for sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong? Yup. Not excusing that.

Frankly, I think that attitude right there is what the problem ultimately boils down to.

Martin
 
martinbayer said:
SOC said:
Do we have a reputation for sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong? Yup. Not excusing that.

Frankly, I think that attitude right there is what the problem ultimately boils down to.

Wait. You have a problem with SOC *not* excusing US governmental nosiness? That seems odd.

But what I've noticed since 2003 is that the same class of person who expresses a view like... "The war in iraq was unwarranted, they didn't have anything to do with 9-11, etc." is generally the same class of person who expresses view like "the US stayed out of World War I/ World War II too, long, they should have gone in earlier." Basically, it's European racism: the US should leap to the rescue of white folks in Europe, but to hell with brown folks elsewhere.
 
martinbayer said:
SOC said:
Do we have a reputation for sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong? Yup. Not excusing that.

Frankly, I think that attitude right there is what the problem ultimately boils down to.

Martin

I say that I don't excuse the government for getting involved where it shouldn't (implying that yes, it's true, we there are cases where we shoudln't have gotten involved), and I say that I don't agree with many of it's actions and many of it's justifications for said actions and nosiness, and that's a problem? Seems to me that if more people felt the same way we'd be better off. Or is the issue that I don't fit your American stereotype? Hell I even work for Europeans. Where does that fit into it?
 
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