KAI KF-21 Boramae (KFX Korean Indigenous Fighter program)

insidersource said:
The KF-21 has plenty of space to fit 200+ rounds and still have two 2,000lb bombs. People are trying to find ways of hating on the KF-21. The F-35A only carries 180 rounds. The Gripen only 120 rounds.
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Not comparable.
Weight of 180 PGU-47/U projectiles is 39.96 kg
Weight of 120 BK-27 projectiles is 31.2 kg
Weight of 200 PGU-28A/B projectiles is 20.48 kg

So you need a lot more of the 20 mm rounds to match the punch of the larger caliber guns.
 
insidersource said:
The KF-21 is replacing the KF-5 fleet so it needs lots of bullets
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No aircraft these days "needs" lots of bullets. And internal storage of sizeable bombs is not only more effective (even disregarding stealth here, the reduced drag should be beneficial to range while carrying ordnance) but also makes it more attractive on the export market.

Just because the aircraft another aircraft replaces is shitty and obsolete, doesn't mean the replacement needs to be shitty and obsolete as well. Instead it should be an improvement and be suitable for the modern combat environment.

There is no disadvantage to ditching ammo or even the entire gun in favor of internal storage, only upsides at the end of the day. That fact that the KF-21 exists in it's current form is due to other external factors, like for example having to replace obsolete shitty aircraft ASAP. So it gets pushed into service half baked. Which isn't unusual, few aircraft entered service with their full potential already at display.
 
eagle said:
Not comparable.
Weight of 180 PGU-47/U projectiles is 39.96 kg
Weight of 120 BK-27 projectiles is 31.2 kg
Weight of 200 PGU-28A/B projectiles is 20.48 kg

So you need a lot more of the 20 mm rounds to match the punch of the larger caliber guns.
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You missed the most important calculation which is the current total projectile weight carried by the current KF-21. The 480 rounds in the KF-21 weighs far more than the total ammunition weight of F-35A and nearly 50% more than the Gripen. The KF-21 has more total punch.

It is pretty crazy that people think they will remove the gun completely instead of just reducing ammunition capacity to the same as the F/A-50. The need for the cannon will reduce with time. There will be no need for strafing ground targets. Dog fights will get increasingly rare. The number of rounds can reduce.

The Apache helicopter was built with a capacity of 1,200 rounds. But with guided missiles and rockets they now only fly with 300 rounds and have added an extra fuel tank where the ammunition is located.
 
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EmoBirb said:
No aircraft these days "needs" lots of bullets.
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The total weight of rounds carried is trending downwards. There is definitely a short term need for a gun with the proliferation of drones.

EmoBirb said:
There is no disadvantage to ditching ammo or even the entire gun in favor of internal storage, only upsides at the end of the day.
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The conventional aircraft gun firing unguided rounds will soon be replaced by a gun firing low recoil guided rounds. This is a fancy way of saying mini-missiles without upsetting the gun people. Every major country and missile developer is conducting research in this area. It is a very obvious solution. I wouldn't be surprised if all the 6th gen aircraft have no conventional gun. The tech isn't quite ready for the KF-21 block 1.

I think 40mm diameter is the sweet spot to allow a proper seeker and guidance in the nose. The 1 second burn time of a 70mm hydra rocket I also think is a sweet spot allowing a light barrel with minimal recoil but also a fast supersonic flight time. 40mm diameter should also double the effective range compared to the best 25/27/30mm aircraft guns. The range should sufficient to intercept incoming air-to-air missiles

The pike munition is the best example of a 40mm projectile that exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(munition)
Dozens of rounds of this size could be fired from an aircraft like a Mk 19 grenade launcher.

This is only a matter of time. We already see F-15E carrying dozens of guided 70mm rockets with proper IR seekers fitted. This simply needs to be miniaturised further and fitted internally into a stealth aircraft.
 
insidersource said:
The KF-21 has plenty of space to fit 200+ rounds and still have two 2,000lb bombs. People are trying to find ways of hating on the KF-21. The F-35A only carries 180 rounds. The Gripen only 120 rounds.
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No hate here at all. Simply big bag going through unused space will go when the space will become used. How much ammo will remain - I don't know.
 
TomcatViP said:
There should be enough space:

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Img from post here
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Also based on the bulkhead in this photo the KF-21 is clearly going to get a single large weapon bay. If you exclude the temporary vertical piece supporting the conformal missile mounts you can see three cutouts in the upper part of the bay. This strongly suggests three pylon attachment points.

One large bay gives more versatility in terms of weaoon combinations. Potentially it could allow five staggered AMRAAM size missiles instead of four. With two 2,000lb JDAM it could allow a central AMRAAM. If slightly wider JASSM missiles are carried then that AMRAAM missile gets removed.

The F-22 for example when it carries a single 1,000lb JDAM it takes away two AMRAAM and there is a bit of wasted space.
 
insidersource said:
You missed the most important calculation which is the current total projectile weight carried by the current KF-21.
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You missed the point because this is not about the current Block I but the much reduced future capacity.
Or in other words: the Block III would need at least 300 rounds to match the Gripen.
Btw. do you know how many rounds are fired in a typical M61 burst?
 
Rate of fire is not burst size...
I found around 50 rounds for the M61 gun at f-16.net. So 200 rounds would give you 4 bursts.
For the BK27 I only found some info about its maritime cousin SeaSnake27. Rheinmetall says bursts are scalable from 0.2s to 6.0s. 0.2s @ 1700 rounds/minute would be a 6 round burst.
 
eagle said:
Rate of fire is not burst size...
I found around 50 rounds for the M61 gun at f-16.net. So 200 rounds would give you 4 bursts.
For the BK27 I only found some info about its maritime cousin SeaSnake27. Rheinmetall says bursts are scalable from 0.2s to 6.0s. 0.2s @ 1700 rounds/minute would be a 6 round burst.
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I've heard 50-75 for a 1sec burst. Takes a little time to get the barrels up to speed, so you don't get the nominal 100 rounds in the first second.

Revolver cannons like the BK27 have far less starting inertia, so pretty much get their full rate of fire in the first second of shooting. 30ish rounds in that first second.
 
This is all known. But not helpful when trying to establish how many bursts an aircraft can fire, typically.
I.e. you don't have to fire a 1 second burst.
Here's the source for the 50 rounds: https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11357
He also says a 1 sec. burst gives you around 80 rounds, close enough. But in that case, a fighter with a 200 round magazine has 3 gun passes in it, one with a 150 round magazine only 2... Better be careful with that trigger ;)
 
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synetic said:
...and DAPA also officially announced its basic jet engine development plan to the relevant committee yesterday, the 22nd. The development period is from 2027 to 2040, and the budget is approximately $2.26 billion.
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is there a source for the engine news(with the timeline)?
 
Many thanks for the information and the sources. The translation of the page was helpful.
There is now a clear timeline and financial framework for the engine’s development.
Finally the target thrust figures are officially known: a maximum dry thrust of 71 kN and 107 kN with afterburner.
 
synetic said:

보도자료 | 방위사업청

보도자료 | 방위사업청
www.dapa.go.kr

As of now, the only news sources are from South Korea, so I was waiting for an English source for you guys.;)
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13 years to develop the engine, which is much more realistic than what TEI is tasked for KAAN's engine. it would be a good opportunity to jointly develop the engine if KF-21 was a bit bigger or KAAN was a bit smaller.

Do we know how much power does current generators of KF-21 produces and how will it change towards 2040s?
 
Lacy said:
13 years to develop the engine, which is much more realistic than what TEI is tasked for KAAN's engine. it would be a good opportunity to jointly develop the engine if KF-21 was a bit bigger or KAAN was a bit smaller.

Do we know how much power does current generators of KF-21 produces and how will it change towards 2040s?
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1) You’re going off-topic.

2) TEI began working on the engine well before the official announcement of the tender winner. Yes, the schedule is still tight but not impossible, it's still within the official 15 year timeframe, even if minor delays occur. The engine is supposed to begin initial testing in H2 2026, so why not wait and see what actually happens?

3) There is zero common ground between ROKAF's requirements and TuAF's requirements. During meetings between both sides in the early days, when they evaluated possibly merging both projects, there was also zero willingness on the Korean side to offer any industrial participation beyond what they offered to Indonesia, which is quite tiny. We know this because multiple people who were involved in the TF-X project back in those days, like the project manager for example, kept mentioning and emphasizing this.
 
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The rollout of the first mass-produced KF-21 is expected to take place in March of this year. According to Kookbangilbo (a newspaper published by the Defense Media Agency), military officials have suggested that only about 200 sorties remain in the flight testing phase.
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View: https://youtu.be/lkdlb8KpEQs?si=AXpq5nEF7LD0DNGg
A video released by KAI (Korea Aerospace Industries) shows the current state of the KF-21 mass-production line. According to a video released last July, production units 1 through 3 were already in the final assembly stage, suggesting that even more follow-on aircraft have likely entered final assembly by now.
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Via: urban mine/defencehub
 
Lacy said:
Do we know how much power does current generators of KF-21 produces and how will it change towards 2040s?
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I would assume same amount as F/A-18E generators. 130 KW total (65 KW generator per engine). The key would be new generator design with better cooling technology and further increase in rotor magnetic flux density.

Otherwise the generator will just scale with size if more power are needed.
 
Lacy said:
5th gen glider? what is that in reference to?
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He's an ex-Jane's employee and is probably receiving funds from certain sides to promote their products and downplay others'. He's hyping "unfinished products" from certain countries and is overtly critical of "Turkish unfinished product"s at the same time.

Just scrolling through his tweet history... dude’s got a straight-up hate boner for anything Turkish.

https://x.com/search?q=from:@AHelvas turkish

That said, he seems to have legit access to insider information.
 
Umigami said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/2008068487412138129
View: https://x.com/i/status/2008068487412138129

Indonesia is preparing 5-6 billions USD loans for more rafale (18) and most likely first purchase batch of Boramae block 2.
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- The aircraft are Rafales and KF-21
- 18 additional Rafales
- The KF-21, which is Block 2 Gen 4.5
- Rafale expected to arrive this January
- KF-21 if the contract is signed this year. First aircraft in 2028.
- The number of KF-21 is unknown

Still needs to see if the prototype will arrive this year
 

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