JMR (Joint Multi-Role) & FVL (Future Vertical Lift) Programs

While I do think the USN will avail itself of the MOSA backbone and some of the other software and hardware elements of the Army FLRAA program, I do not think that they will go with the Bell FLRAA aircraft as is. It does not fit the current line ships if I read correctly. I also think that the USN has more hover requirement than the U.S. Army. Could be wrong though.
 
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yasotay said:
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/textron-hints-at-unmanned-capability-for-flraa-tiltrotor/162739.article?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=Sendible&utm_campaign=RSS&s=03

unmanned - the new "must have", "paradigm shifting", "game changing", requirement is now part of FLRAA. And it is a "Pathfinder," that is “trailblazing” as well.

https://breakingdefense.com/2025/04...ill-be-a-first-for-mosa-in-helicopter-design/
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I'm not seeing much use for an unmanned version of the V280, unless we're using the wide airframe for weapons bays.

I'm expecting a lot more unmanned stuff for the Apache-replacement part of FVL.
 
Scott - The way I see it the unmanned capability is not a distinct platform, but an ability to use the aircraft without aircrew if need arises.

I think the Apache replacement, if even necessary, is nothing more than a truck for launching medium and long-range munitions at greater distances from the front lines. People are grumbling at the loss of MQ-9 that cost as much as a UH-60.
 
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yasotay said:
Scott - The way I see it the unmanned capability is not a distinct platform, but an ability to use the aircraft without aircrew if need arises.
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Okay, I can see that. Not sure where that'd be a good idea, but I'm sure the capability is there.



yasotay said:
I think the Apache replacement, if even necessary, is nothing more than a truck for launching medium and long-range munitions at greater distances from the front lines. People are grumbling at the loss of MQ-9 that cost as much as a UH-60.
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I think it'll have a gun, too. The only gun in the entire CCA-CAS package.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I think it'll have a gun, too. The only gun in the entire CCA-CAS package.
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Gun, ammo, electric cables and weapon cyber systems weigh a lot. As you point out if the FLRAA becomes the replacement for Apache, that will be a significant trade. Also, the drag from the gun and mount at 230 knots will be significant, likely reducing the range of the aircraft. I am sure someone is considering this, but I expect they dare not threaten the sanctity of the Apache just yet. They might be banned from the officer's club.
 
yasotay said:
Gun, ammo, electric cables and weapon cyber systems weigh a lot. As you point out if the FLRAA becomes the replacement for Apache, that will be a significant trade. Also, the drag from the gun and mount at 230 knots will be significant, likely reducing the range of the aircraft. I am sure someone is considering this, but I expect they dare not threaten the sanctity of the Apache just yet. They might be banned from the officer's club.
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I'm expecting a streamlined/hidden mount like on the Comanche, or possibly a simple fixed mount like on a jet.

And this is "whatever will replace the Apache", even if the Apache-F model gets T901s and 6000hp installed power...
 
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TomcatViP said:
YT engines? So do they have to fly with special derogations across civilian airspace?
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Given that the SOAR is seen training in and around major Metropolitan areas, whatever procedure they must use to fly in civil airspace is now routine.
But I would expect you are correct.
 
It’s hard to not find this trend a bit worrisome amongst Army Aviation.

Last year FARA is cancelled and Shadow is retired, with it being touted that this would allow investment in further Blackhawks, ITEP upgrades for the type, and the forthcoming FTUAS.

Now, just over a year later, ITEP and FTUAS are cut, the Army is refusing to commit to further Blackhawk production after all…

So what future awaits FLRAA? Is its future made more secure now that ITEP is dead and makes Blackhawk upgrades less compelling?
 
Aviation is the lowest priority on the Army budget just now. The Army is the lowest priority for funding in the U.S. DoD. This is a periodic thing. Army went from 10,00 UH-1 to 2000 UH-60 and everyone thought the aviators were going away.
 
China factor is driving the administration's philosophy in tearing everything down and rebuild from ground up rather than incremental reforms. However, that requires a team of extremely competent people with fresh thinking in leadership roles, not just people with fresh thinking. The administration is stuck between the fantasy of hiring exceptional high IQ outside the box thinkers and the reality of hiring yes men for political reason. Yes men are not exactly high IQ outside the box independent thinkers.

Pick one. If hiring yes men is more important politically, then please go back to doing things as is and occasional incremental reforms. You can't have both.
 
I am not sure that these decisions are not historically the American way of preparing for war. If you think about it when America entered WW1 it was almost completely reliant on Europe for a significant amount of its' combat technology. After the war there was what is tantamount to a technology revolution, especially in aviation. Curtiss, Bell, Northrup, Lockheed,, etc., while not exactly venture capitalist, they certainly were independent thinkers. Many backed by what we call 'Venture Capitalist.' The United States in the 1920s and 30s was certainly as aggressive as any country in the rapid exploitation of technologies, while Ford, Chevy, Dodge and many other Capitalist enjoyed funding profiles to make large factories and train more people to build things on a huge scale. The United States Army Air Corps had a multitude of varied aircraft types that it tested. To me that it was, by today's parlance; "try-fly-decide."
So the 21st Century technologist/industrialist are not drastically different than their predecessors of a century ago if you ask me.
Remember that the Army is trying to move away from vendor lock, so that other than the core airframe, everything else can be changed out as desired, or required. We will see how that works. Sometimes I think that this notion of Modular Open Systems Architecture (MOSA), that the FLRAA program is the poster child for, is the real reason it has been safe to date. We will see.

@Scott Kenny - sometimes "the juice isn't worth the squeeze". The program was already years behind schedule and significantly above the original funding line. As the U.S. Army now has a decrement funding profile, an anemic program like this was easy pickings.
 
How can you cancel ITEP and still build FLRAA? Oh, and FLRAA is going to be heavier than originally envisioned so it can be easier to support the small commitment to Special Operations aircraft? What the fuck? Also, in announcing the cancelation of ITEP, the person quoted mentions going back to Bell to ask if ITEP is a make or break... Shouldn't you know that before you cancel an engine program you have been working on for years?
 
SlothmanAllen said:
How can you cancel ITEP and still build FLRAA? Oh, and FLRAA is going to be heavier than originally envisioned so it can be easier to support the small commitment to Special Operations aircraft? What the fuck? Also, in announcing the cancelation of ITEP, the person quoted mentions going back to Bell to ask if ITEP is a make or break... Shouldn't you know that before you cancel an engine program you have been working on for years?
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Because FLRAA isn't using ITEP. V280 is running on Osprey engines!

ITEP was for FARA and to refit H60/H64s.
 
The U.S.Army has literally hundreds of T700 engines. The T901 did not have the great increases in capability it was to have.
Given the decisions on AH and UH, buying new engines for $$$ was an easy decision.
 
TomcatViP said:
Wait, didn't the T901 offers 50% more power in the same volume?
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They did... and then it didn't.
The fuel savings promised were also unrealized.

This was part of the reason that the FLRAA vendors were given the latitude to go with other engines, since the 901 would have under powered their aircraft significantly, and the promised increase in range would not have been "twice as far."
 
I suspect that Bell Flight politics hard to stay with the Rolls Royce engine. First they knew what they are getting into, second the USMC had the engine so "when" they joined the FLRAA program they would not have to come up with a new program and series of maintainers for the aircraft.
I suspect the very same rational was why the Sikorsky-Boeing Team went with Chinook engines. Less risk and an engine already in service.

Both likely also had industrial intel that the 901 was not getting where they advertised it would be.
 
yasotay said:
They did... and then it didn't.
The fuel savings promised were also unrealized.

This was part of the reason that the FLRAA vendors were given the latitude to go with other engines, since the 901 would have under powered their aircraft significantly, and the promised increase in range would not have been "twice as far."
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FLRAA moved off ITEP because the performance parameters for FLRAA went beyond ITEP, which was bound by the requirement to operate in an unmodified UH-60, not due to shortfalls in the engine. FARA was still supposed to use T901 before it died, and refits of the existing fleet were considered a critical need 6 months ago.
 
ITEP’s issues notwithstanding, its demise worries me a bit as I’ve thought about it over the weekend.

Clean sheet rotorcraft design is already an exceedingly rare thing in this country, FARA and FLRAA were seen as once in a generation, and now only one of them is progressing. Without ITEP, what investment is being made in next generation turboshaft engines for military applications?

The civilian helicopter turboshaft market is already dominated by Safran and P&WC, and you can rest assured that NGRC will feature some sort of new Safran engine (as there have been releases that they are working on something).

Absent ITEP, does the U.S. risk being left without capability in this sector going forward?
 
Moose said:
FLRAA moved off ITEP because the performance parameters for FLRAA went beyond ITEP, which was bound by the requirement to operate in an unmodified UH-60, not due to shortfalls in the engine. FARA was still supposed to use T901 before it died, and refits of the existing fleet were considered a critical need 6 months ago.
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Which is what confuses the hell out of me about the cancellation.

ITEP must have been a complete soup sandwich if a critical need for a new engine gets thrown out!
 
FTUAS & RCV were borh defining the term 'albatross' , given the context of the current front. Glade to see them go.
 
Ukraine/Russia War with its 10,000 UAS a month mortality rate is causing most larger Unmanned System programs to be reviewed.
 

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