INS Vikramaditya update?

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

I don't know if I'm just not looking in the right places, but how is India's ex-Russian carrier coming along? According to Wikipedia and the source for the statement, it should be doing harbor trials soon.

 

[1st503rdSGT]

Sorry you had to wait so long.

Basically, it's not going so well. http://www.hrana.org/news.asp#IndiasRussianCarrier

 

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

lol, way too long.

I found what I was looking for on KeyPublishing, though I've never gotten an approval to the 3 times I've signed up. Anyone know who I need to contact to get that?

 

[Deino]

As expected, the Vikramaditya (Gorshkov) aircraft carrier won't be ready to join service with the Indian Navy for at least another year. Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov today confirmed that that the ship, which failed sea trials earlier this year, would probably only join service towards the end of next year. My sources in the Indian Navy say the hadn't expected the delay to be anything less. Also, as expected, the problems with the carrier are more serious than Russia first indicated.

http://livefist.blogspot.de/2012/10/textbook-botch-gorshkov-carrier-delayed.html

 

[chuck4]

I understand all the boilers furnaces originally had asbestos lining. Indians wanted to remove the asbestos lining for safety, so the Russians replaced them with under-spec Chinese refractory bricks. The bricks cracked during sea trials, so the boilers now all have to be removed and reconditioned. New asbestos lining will be put back in.

 

[DFC]

Well, INS Vikramaditya joins the Indian Navy.




http://www.indianexpress.com/news/9year-wait-ends-india-finally-has-ins-vikramaditya/1195735/0

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?234208-INS-Vikramaditya-arrives!

 

[GTX]

I was just looking at some photos of the INS Vikramaditya and had to ask: has it potentially re-introduced the "Alaskan Taxiway" from CVA-01?

Compare for yourself.

 

[Thorvic]

Certainly look like an Alaskan highway at leats to allow the deck vehicles to move between deck parks fore and aft of the island, it looks wide enough for an aircraft but those deck cranes do looks to create awkward bottlenecks . Be interesting to see it used once its in service.

 

[Rickshaw]

Might be more appropriate as a parking/passageway for deck vehicles. That way they are off the flightdeck and able to be moved fore-aft without interference to flight operations. It does look wide enough perhaps for a MiG-29 with folded wings. Wouldn't have liked to try and use one in the North Atlantic but in the more benign northern Indian Ocean it might work.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The wide Alaskan Highway on the Vikramaditya is there because the flight deck forward and aft of the island has been extended to starboard to provide parking space for aircraft clear of the landing and launching decks. Linking them together is simply a structural thing that also has the benefit of increasing parking area for flight deck services. But there would be little benefit in using it as a taxi path as on the CVA-01 because it does not provide an avenue towards a launching spot as these are not forward of the forward edge of the island.

 

[fightingirish]

THE PROVING GROUND: Vikramaditya aircraft carrier! (English subtitles)

The Proving Ground show visited "Vikramaditya" aircraft carrier during her last sea and flight trials in the Barents Sea prior being handed over to the Indian Navy. INS Vikramaditya is the former Soviet "Admiral Gorshkov" aircraft carrier for VSTOL aircraft, but it was rebuilt and upgraded to serve with conventional take-off and landing deck fighters. It will stay in service with Indian Navy for at least 40 years.

http://youtu.be/2OFnYKaNSZk

http://youtu.be/2OFnYKaNSZk

 

[Anderman]

Mh expected they would use "Highway to the dangerzone" as back ground music ;D

 

[Deino]

:-\ :-\

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/mig-29k-averts-horror-crash-but-slams-onto-indias-brand-new-naval-icon-ins-vikramaditya/1257426?rhheader

MiG 29K averts horror crash, but slams onto India's 'brand new' naval icon, INS VikramadityaA MiG 29K naval combat aircraft has suffered damage while landing on the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya during operations in Arabian Sea off the coast of Goa, a Navy official said today.
The Russian-origin aircraft had taken off from the Naval airbase INS Hansa in Goa yesterday and was landing on the aircraft when it carried out a 'hard-landing' causing damage to the nose-wheel undercarriage, the official said.
The pilot of the aircraft is safe and the further details of the damage are being assessed, they said.
The Navy has ordered a Board of Inquiry (BoI) into the incident on the aircraft carrier procured from Russia at a cost of over Rs 15,000 crore late last year.
In this incident onboard the 44,500 tonne warship, the pilot missed the first two arrester wires used as aid by the pilot for landing on the carrier and while he was trying to take off again, it got stuck in the third arrester wire causing a hard-landing, Navy officials said.
MiG 29Ks have been procured by India from Russia and India is the only country in the world which operates these twin engine naval fighters.
India has ordered for 45 of these aircraft and this is the first accident involving these aircraft.

 

[Deino]

Here via "twinblade" (Key-Forum):

As PM Narendra Modi watches, three MiG 29K fighters conduct a low level pass over the Vikramaditya.

 

[Creative]

I hope one day she'll make a visit to NYC during Fleet Week. Would love to check her out.

 

[helmutkohl]

i was thinking earlier
with the IN already thinking of a MiG-29K replacement

in retrospect do you think rather than Fulcrums, they should have gone for more Harriers (either the UK or US versions) instead?
could probably have lasted until 2020-2030ish, which by then they could have moved on to something else, F-35B/C, Rafale, etc.

I assume it would not be too difficult to adapt the harrier to the Vikramaditya

 

[SSgtC]

i was thinking earlier
with the IN already thinking of a MiG-29K replacement

in retrospect do you think rather than Fulcrums, they should have gone for more Harriers (either the UK or US versions) instead?
could probably have lasted until 2020-2030ish, which by then they could have moved on to something else, F-35B/C, Rafale, etc.

I assume it would not be too difficult to adapt the harrier to the Vikramaditya

Short answer? No. Long answer? Hell no! The Harrier is a fine plane. But at this point, it's a 55 year old design, it's subsonic, carries 4,000 pounds less ordinance and is significantly less capable as an interceptor primarily due to its low speed. The Harrier has provided outstanding service throughout its life. But even a compromised MiG-29K offers more.

 

[kaiserbill]

Completely agree.
The Harrier would be a step backwards.
Apart from the ability to land and take off in a shorter distance, I cannot think of many worthwhile metrics that the Mig-29 is inferior to the Harrier.
The Vikramaditya is large enough to operate fixed wing jets such as the Mig-29K and Tejas (which has done it's trials on that ship), so why compromise?

 

[helmutkohl]

i was thinking earlier
with the IN already thinking of a MiG-29K replacement

in retrospect do you think rather than Fulcrums, they should have gone for more Harriers (either the UK or US versions) instead?
could probably have lasted until 2020-2030ish, which by then they could have moved on to something else, F-35B/C, Rafale, etc.

I assume it would not be too difficult to adapt the harrier to the Vikramaditya

Short answer? No. Long answer? Hell no! The Harrier is a fine plane. But at this point, it's a 55 year old design, it's subsonic, carries 4,000 pounds less ordinance and is significantly less capable as an interceptor primarily due to its low speed. The Harrier has provided outstanding service throughout its life. But even a compromised MiG-29K offers more.

I remember in old military discussion forums from 10-15 years ago, it was a big debate with many people considering the Harrier route as the better 'stop gap' than the MiG-29K, especially since the late UK or US versions had good radar updates, AMRAAM, etc.
Indeed the MiG-29K has better supersonic performance period, but I've always wondered how much it could take off with (payload) from the Vikramaditya.

in anycase what do you think of the future route? it seems IN is not keen the MiG-29K as part of the future inventory. what do you think they should go towards in the future?

 

[SSgtC]

in anycase what do you think of the future route? it seems IN is not keen the MiG-29K as part of the future inventory. what do you think they should go towards in the future?

They're apparently looking into buying Super Hornets.

 

[GTX]

in anycase what do you think of the future route? it seems IN is not keen the MiG-29K as part of the future inventory. what do you think they should go towards in the future?

They're apparently looking into buying Super Hornets.

Would be a good choice.

 

[SSgtC]

in anycase what do you think of the future route? it seems IN is not keen the MiG-29K as part of the future inventory. what do you think they should go towards in the future?

They're apparently looking into buying Super Hornets.

Would be a good choice.

Not that they have many options. If you need a carrier based fighter you have exactly 4 choices:

F/A-18 Super Hornet
Rafale M
F-35C Lightning (and be stuck at the tail end of a very long waiting list)
MiG-29K (which they already have and don't like)

 

[Grey Havoc]

Well, Naval Gripen and Naval Typhoon would also be available, in theory at least.

 

[GTX]

Well, Naval Gripen and Naval Typhoon would also be available, in theory at least.

And Tejas and others though all bring either more risk and or other issues. The Super Hornet would be the highly capable, low risk solution.

 

[Grey Havoc]

low risk solution.

With ongoing developmental & other problems, as well as the current political climate, I'm not so sure that is the case now.

 

[GTX]

low risk solution.

With ongoing developmental & other problems, as well as the current political climate, I'm not so sure that is the case now.

Its in service, in numbers (600+), has around 20yrs of operational service including on carriers, plus the Indian Armed Forces are increasingly interested in US sourced equipment (C-17, AH-64, P-8...)...how can it not be the low risk solution when compared to all other contenders?

 

[helmutkohl]

in anycase what do you think of the future route? it seems IN is not keen the MiG-29K as part of the future inventory. what do you think they should go towards in the future?

They're apparently looking into buying Super Hornets.

Would be a good choice.

Not that they have many options. If you need a carrier based fighter you have exactly 4 choices:

F/A-18 Super Hornet
Rafale M
F-35C Lightning (and be stuck at the tail end of a very long waiting list)
MiG-29K (which they already have and don't like)

The B rather than C might make a better choice on Vikramaditya and Vikrant..
not sure about Vishal since that one might be CATOBAR.

 

[SSgtC]

in anycase what do you think of the future route? it seems IN is not keen the MiG-29K as part of the future inventory. what do you think they should go towards in the future?

They're apparently looking into buying Super Hornets.

Would be a good choice.

Not that they have many options. If you need a carrier based fighter you have exactly 4 choices:

F/A-18 Super Hornet
Rafale M
F-35C Lightning (and be stuck at the tail end of a very long waiting list)
MiG-29K (which they already have and don't like)

The B rather than C might make a better choice on Vikramaditya and Vikrant..
not sure about Vishal since that one might be CATOBAR.

I don't know. I think they may want the C model because, unlike everyone else buying it for shipboard use, their carriers have full angled decks and wires to trap back on board. Buying the C would, probably, give them more range or payload than the B model, even if they are launching from the ski ramp.

 

[Deino]

I think any discussion on sales of F-35 to India is moot ... the whole IAF is still too much and deeply interconnected within a Russian system including AEW, C&C.
They also use S-400 too (remember the Turkey saga) and I really don't think the US would sell its high-end type as a stand-alone fighter which makes no sense nor would they allow it to integrate it into this established system.

 

[uk 75]

Can Rafale operate off the Indian ships? If it can I imagine Rafale would be the likely option. France is sufficiently independent of the US and not too worried about who it sells to.

 

[SSgtC]

Maybe? I don't know if Dassault has ever trialed them using a ski jump. Boeing just finished ski jump trials in December with the F/A-18E. The US apparently is very much in favor of selling the Indian Navy Super Hornets for their carriers.

 

[Archibald]

Never heard about a french ski-jump nor a Rafale-M being trialed this way.

Dassault probably bet everything on the lighter, ground-based Rafale. As far as foreign sales go, the -M is Marginal (rather than Marine - runs for cover).

Now, if a SH can be flown out of a ski-jump, no reason why a Rafale M couldn't. Plus MiG-29 and Su-27 peculiar cases - they were not designed for that in the 70's but it worked.
It has a slightly better T/W ratio than the Superbug, and better aerodynamics (if that ever helps).
I think it is only a matter of Dassault trying. Perhaps putting a prototype ski-jump at Mérignac BA-106 / airport airstrip.
I worked there for a while (on the military and civilian sides), what a sight it would have been !
If Boeing did it for the SH, maybe Dassault will do it, too ?

 

[SSgtC]

So, reading an article on Forbes, apparently the Rafale M won't fit on the elevators of the Indian carriers while the Super Bug will (albeit only barely). The fact that the Indian Air Force already operates the Rafale could be either a plus or a minus, depending on the IAF's opinion of the aircraft. If the Air Force likes the plane, buying more Rafales makes sense instead of introducing another new type. This is course assumes that Dassault is willing to modify the Rafale to fit on Indian elevators. If they're not, that pretty much leaves the Super Hornet as their only option.

 

[zen]

I think Dassault will do all sorts of things for paying customers....as long as the customer pays up.

 

[helmutkohl]

Never heard about a french ski-jump nor a Rafale-M being trialed this way.

Dassault probably bet everything on the lighter, ground-based Rafale. As far as foreign sales go, the -M is Marginal (rather than Marine - runs for cover).

Now, if a SH can be flown out of a ski-jump, no reason why a Rafale M couldn't. Plus MiG-29 and Su-27 peculiar cases - they were not designed for that in the 70's but it worked.
It has a slightly better T/W ratio than the Superbug, and better aerodynamics (if that ever helps).
I think it is only a matter of Dassault trying. Perhaps putting a prototype ski-jump at Mérignac BA-106 / airport airstrip.
I worked there for a while (on the military and civilian sides), what a sight it would have been !
If Boeing did it for the SH, maybe Dassault will do it, too ?

hehe marginal

anyways yeah I agree. I think likely ability to ski jump won't be much of an issue with Rafale or Super Hornet (maybe how much it can ski jump with, is another story).
but the elevator thing is a concern. I understand Vikramaditya has some limitations since the elevators were designed for Forgers and helicopters
but what about the Vishal and Vikrant elevators?

 

[Archibald]

d'oh ! Rafale wings don't fold, for historical reasons (CdG didn't needed them plus weight
savings and commonality with the land based Rafales). That's annoying for elevators for sure.
Super Etendard wing tips did fold back then...

 

[SSgtC]

d'oh ! Rafale wings don't fold, for historical reasons (CdG didn't needed them plus weight
savings and commonality with the land based Rafales). That's annoying for elevators for sure.
Super Etendard wing tips did fold back then...

Yeah, non folding wings is kind of an issue

 

[Archibald]

Dassault excuse was that the Rafale delta has short span. They didn't integrated a fold for weight and complexity reason - even more because the French Navy come a distant second to the Air Force in the timeline (late 80's) and in numbers (60 to 200+). So basically "screw them".

 

[SSgtC]

Dassault excuse was that the Rafale delta has short span. They didn't integrated a fold for weight and complexity reason - even more because the French Navy come a distant second to the Air Force in the timeline (late 80's) and in numbers (60 to 200+). So basically "screw them".

Well, I'm sure they are wishing they'd included one now with STOBAR carriers becoming more common