How much trust do you put in Wikipedia?

How much trust do you put in Wikipedia?

  • I consider Wikipedia universially reliable.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I consider Wikipedia articles reliable unless I can prove that they make wrong claims.

    Votes: 13 27.1%
  • I consider Wikipedia articles reliable unless I suspect that they make wrong claims.

    Votes: 25 52.1%
  • I consider Wikipedia articles unreliable regardless of an initial reason to suspect they are wrong.

    Votes: 6 12.5%
  • I consider Wikipedia universally unreliable.

    Votes: 4 8.3%

  • Total voters
    48

HoHun

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Hi everyone,

Here's a quick poll to check the general consensus regarding trustworthiness of Wikipedia articles.

No way around it, Wikipedia can be very convenient and useful when researching aviation topics, but just how much trust to you put in Wikipedia as a source?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
The reliability is directly related to the source material. Primary sources, sources reliable in their fields (i.e. a physics academic journal for an article on particle physics), those should be looked for. If an article is mostly citing overly biased sources, or things like private blogs, etc., then the article's reliability should be seriously questioned.
 
i echo SOC. it depends who is editing it and what sources they are referring to.
I overall find it okay for basic information.

what I hate however, is this trend of people deleting photos (usually the ones that are publicly ok)
and replacing it with their own CG art, which is usually crappy.
 
The reliability is directly related to the source material. Primary sources, sources reliable in their fields (i.e. a physics academic journal for an article on particle physics), those should be looked for. If an article is mostly citing overly biased sources, or things like private blogs, etc., then the article's reliability should be seriously questioned.

This. Always look at the sources (even if you don't click through)

OTOH, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen a source linked that doesn't actually contain the information it's cited to support, I'd be a lot closer to retirement.
 
To be honest it would depend on the context. Generally I would not trust it, and would never allow it to be used as a reference for a technical document (I've seen that on several occasions).

However if I am doing a quick google to see who someone is, or where a town or landmark lies, then I would use it first and then search elsewhere for more details and a "second opinion".
 
As a professional researcher, I sometimes use Wikipedia as a starting point. After reviewing the information, I check the references which should mention books and magazine articles, if not primary documents. Once I have a starting point, I look further. However, to give one example, the Wiki entry for the company I work for contains false and misleading information, and it is obvious that amateurs with zero knowledge of proper research techniques put it together. We attempted to change it by putting in the facts, but idiots unknown changed it back. So, Wikipedia can contain false information to varying degrees. I generally do not trust it and I must have multiple confirmations of any information I need.

As an aside, I've noticed the exact same lack of professionalism in blogs. A recent, amazingly biased example was appalling but, thanks the anonymity of the poster, I don't expect anyone to do anything about it. So I require real names, real sources and real documents, not this fake, 'I'm bored. I'll start a blog' nonsense.
 
As far as aviation is concerned, wiki is a good starting point for a search. Some articles are very interesting, but always contain some legend or untruth. In any case, it still needs to be explored in greater depth.
 
You should read these:



Wikipedia is intended to be a compilation of previously published secondary sources. It can't get better than a digest of existing published information. Citing primary sources is in most instances actively discouraged.

So I can't edit the P.1121 article and cite the P.1121 Brochure I possess, but I can cite the book I wrote about the P.1121.

With aviation subject particularly, there don't seem to be a great deal of people contributing, and those that do often have fairly limited libraries, so you often see the same generic compilation "Great Book of Aircraft" types cited, or they cite older works superseded by newer information in new works that the editor didn't possess. So it tends to be older information of a rather generic nature.

Additionally, only "hot topic" aircraft seem to get regularly updated, reflecting the level of user interest.

So its usually okay for a quick overview of the basics, but not something you should use as a "source" in any serious sense. If anything you should track down the cited reference(s) and look at them. Or buy a forum recommended book on the subject!
 
The P.1121 article provides a good example. It sites Derek Wood's Project Cancelled, 1975 edition for all of its information. Now, this is a fairly good book, but there were later revised editions of it. Then there's Tony Buttler's BSP, which is based on more modern research. Then, there's my book on the P.1121.

Woods isn't the best source now. There are some errors, For example:

In March 1954,, Hawker decided to embark on the development of a new fighter aircraft in response to the release of Operational Requirement 323 (OR.323) by the Air Ministry .[2] This initial design, designated as the P.1103, was a twin-seat swept wing aircraft powered by the de Havilland Gyron turbojet engine and armed with two sizeable Red Dean air-to-air missiles. The proposed design was reworked the following year when, in February 1955, the Ministry issued OR.329, which, amongst other requirements, called for a large 40-inch (100 cm) sweep-scanning radar unit, AI.18, to be installed.[2] In October 1955, Hawker decided to tender its revised P.1103 proposal for the requirement, notably offering the Red Hebe missile as an alternative to Red Dean.[2]

OR.323 seems to have been for a Hastings and Valetta replacement later superseded by OR.344. Not sure what Woods is on about here.

OR.329 is first sent out as a very early draft OR to various aviation firms on 17 March 1954, with the draft identified as CMS.2344/53. Discussions on the topic have already happened, but this is the first formal presentation of thoughts. Nothing is very firm at all. Basically, "We need a new fighter to shoot down possible high flying Mach 2 bombers as an interim measure until guided missiles can do the job". There's thoughts about probably needing new weapons, but no details on anything.

By July 1954, it is now a firmish (but still draft) OR.329 for a Day / Night Supersonic High Altitude Fighter. Discussions still ongoing on how big, how high it should fly, what size radar is needed, how many crew etc. Early drafts of OR.329, based on some rather optimistic calculations by the RAE, suggested allowing 2,000lb military load for pursuit weapons and 4,000lb for collision-course weapons.

The requirement is finally issued on 15th January 1955.

In March, after preliminary studies come back from guided weapons designers, Hawker are informed expected military load now varied from 8430lb (with two 1000lb-class collision-course weapons) to 10,875lb (two collision-course weapons and two pursuit-course Firestreaks). Huge difference from early drafts. P.1103 is really too small now for the collision course weapons load.

There is an Issue 2 OR.329 in July 1955 which says that they don't need to carry both collision course and pursuit weapons at once. Everyone sighs in relief, except Saunders-Roe who carry on drawing a gigantic colossus of a fighter to carry both at once.

On 5 October 1955, Hawker submit their bid. They decide to use Blue Jay Mk4 as armament.

In November, during the first Tender Assessment meeting, Hawker are almost rejected immediately due to the brochure not really documenting the use of Red Hebe on the design at all. As Hawker did state Red Hebe could be carried (at an unspecified performance penalty), it is agreed to ask Hawker to provide more details of this and also possible use of the Sparrow AAM.

Hawker provide this supplemental information in December 1955. In January 1956 they are eliminated from the competition.

So we can say this initial paragraph on P.1103 has a number of actual inaccuracies. Dates are wrong, intended use of Red Dean is wrong, OR.323 doesn't seem to be right. This is the drawback of secondary sources, and also old, superceded sources.

Some of this I could potentially correct by citing my own book, but if I didn't specifically mention a point I need to correct, I can't really use original documents to do so.
 
If anything you should track down the cited reference(s) and look at them. Or buy a forum recommended book on the subject!
Do you have a forum in mind ? I'm interested.
:p:D:D:D

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

This is so weird - I have difficulty wrapping my mind around the logic of it. What's the problem with primary sources ? They don't want Wikipedia contributor to make their own interpretations ? hence "better to leave that to professionals" so - secondary & tertiary sources ?
 
In theory published books are obtainable by the public and hence the information is theoretically verifiable. However, you don't have to produce any proof your source actually contains the information cited, and some published books are probably harder to obtain in reality than copies of the Tender Assessment for F.155T from Kew.

Wikipedia was always supposed to be a distillation of widely accepted, already published knowledge, not an original work like the Encyclopedia Britannica.
 
I consider Wikipaedia to be a useful start point. I tried correcting the articles I came across with gaping holes only to have them reset. Rather pointless taking it seriously but at the same time, it can point afforts in new directions.

Inaccurate articles in Wikipaedia is hardly something to tie one in knots.
 
In general, the less you know the subject, the more reliable it seems.

You can generally trust it for broad details. The P.1121 was indeed a Hawker fighter project derived from the P.1103. If you want to quote WIkipedia as a source on, say, the dimensions of an aircraft, better to cite Wikipedia's source for the dimensions.
 
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My dears and my friends,

I consider it a good resource for informations,BUT,the only problem is that,they
took some data from unreliable sites and sources,and in some cases if they quoted
from a booksor magazines,never check this out.
 
It is fundamentally wrong to work with information sources on the principle of "I believe - I don't believe".Use everything that says about the question you are interested in, up to fortune-telling on coffee grounds. And only after collecting all the available information, start checking. One of the criteria is a match with other sources
 
Wikipedia - the "free" source of information for Communists and Hippies. "Hey man. I'm goin' to da free clinic."
 
"Trust, but verify..."
Unfortunately, if you falsify by 'Personal Observation' or 'Personal Communication', there is no route to put into Wiki.
Getting a letter into eg 'New Scientist' or 'Fortean Times', then referencing that is, however acceptable...
 
"Trust, but verify..."
Unfortunately, if you falsify by 'Personal Observation' or 'Personal Communication', there is no route to put into Wiki.
Getting a letter into eg 'New Scientist' or 'Fortean Times', then referencing that is, however acceptable...

So, tell me. Where is all the accurate information? Apparently, a few here claim to know. And if Wiki is so prone to false/unconfirmed information posting then it is worth close to nothing. Perhaps it should be closed down since it can be "edited" by anyone.
 
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According to this page Fidel Castro is not considered a dictator.
Ahem: "Critics call him a dictator whose administration oversaw human rights abuses, the exodus of many Cubans, and the impoverishment of the country's economy."
Ahem what? So why not write it from the beginning instead of involving "the critics"? (horrible term to call so many Cuban exiles and sincere anti-communists in the world). As if his actions are considered bad only for the existence of these annoying critics.
 
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According to this page Fidel Castro is not considered a dictator.
Ahem: "Critics call him a dictator whose administration oversaw human rights abuses, the exodus of many Cubans, and the impoverishment of the country's economy."
Ahem what? So why not write it from the beginning instead of involving "the critics"? (horrible term to call so many Cuban exiles and sincere anti-communists in the world). As if his actions are considered bad only for the existence of these annoying critics.
This is a direct result of the balance and fairness requirement. While many in the West might regard him as a dictator, there are dissenting opinions on the subject. Wikipedia is not supposed to take an editorial stance, only summarise published opinions.
 
Look at it sideways, lots of folk think Putin is pretty great. Not the megalomanical would be mass murderer and some time bareback rider that he makes himself out to be........
 
Look at it sideways, lots of folk think Putin is pretty great. Not the megalomanical would be mass murderer and some time bareback rider that he makes himself out to be........

The fast growing International Federation of Populist Morons certainly agree with that statement. He is their darling, and also their sugar daddy. In Europe, in the Americas, and elsewhere.
 
As a Wikipedian (no conflict of interest), I only put trust on the references and bibliography but however the source should be in a neutral point of view.
References such as blogs (take OldMachinePress) sometimes takes position as a valid source on aeronautical engineering or aircraft-related articles. Just consider vigilantly when sources are short.
 
Not to mention source links to all those Flight PDFs that you can't access anymore (though some on the French Wikipedia pages do open via a web archiving site - it's very hit and miss though).

It's interesting to compare the non-English language pages, most of the content is the same but some have more, or less, detail depending on the variation of local interest in the aircraft concerned.
 
Hi Nahida,

As a Wikipedian (no conflict of interest), I only put trust on the references and bibliography but however the source should be in a neutral point of view.

Well, that's where the problem begins ... a neutral point of view is an ideal concept that might be impossible to verify for any real-world source:


Note that in source criticism, the question of who the author is quite important:

Who is the author and what are the qualifications of the author in regard to the topic that is discussed?

And if there's something the Wikipedia does exceptionally well, it's to veil just who wrote just what. I know every edit is attributed to an author, the problem really is that there is no way of tracking the history of a claim written into an article to the original author of the claim through all the hundreds or thousands of other or purely editorial edits (other than "brute force", basically reading all edits from the origin or the article to the first occurrence of the claim).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
I put a lot of thrust on the jet and rocket engine pages... (I'll get my coat)
 
Hi Nahida,

As a Wikipedian (no conflict of interest), I only put trust on the references and bibliography but however the source should be in a neutral point of view.

Well, that's where the problem begins ... a neutral point of view is an ideal concept that might be impossible to verify for any real-world source:


Note that in source criticism, the question of who the author is quite important:

Who is the author and what are the qualifications of the author in regard to the topic that is discussed?

And if there's something the Wikipedia does exceptionally well, it's to veil just who wrote just what. I know every edit is attributed to an author, the problem really is that there is no way of tracking the history of a claim written into an article to the original author of the claim through all the hundreds or thousands of other or purely editorial edits (other than "brute force", basically reading all edits from the origin or the article to the first occurrence of the claim).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
An author (not a Wikipedia editor at some time) should have prior knowledge to the topic that has its own core interest to write a publication (or a topic) in order to be more elaborate and reliable. Otherwise, the discussion of a certain topic would be hard to be judged as such. Moreover, the reliability and validity of a source can be forged, and can give a biased viewpoint, and this could question the concept of an NPOV.

Who is the author and what are the qualifications of the author in regard to the topic that is discussed?
It is like 'there should be a correlation with the author's knowledge of something and the topic discussed' required.
 
Hi Nahida,

Who is the author and what are the qualifications of the author in regard to the topic that is discussed?
It is like 'there should be a correlation with the author's knowledge of something and the topic discussed' required.

As the Wikipedia veils the identity of the author of any particular statement, the entire question can't be answered, and that's a question that's quite important in the context of source criticism.

It's not about the author's knowledge, it's about the connection between statements and authors.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
It's very simple. Where did the unknown author's knowledge come from? If it's primary documents then the document titles and archive locations should be published. If other sources are used, provide article or book titles and actual author names.

Otherwise, imagine a meeting of experts being interrupted by some unknown guy with fragments of knowledge who mistakenly believes he can make a contribution.
 
Hi Ed,

It's very simple. Where did the unknown author's knowledge come from? If it's primary documents then the document titles and archive locations should be published. If other sources are used, provide article or book titles and actual author names.

The problem is, there's not even a way to preserve the integrity of statements and footnotes during edits.

Even if the quoted source supports the original statement (which is not a given), after a number of edits, the sentence annotated by the footnote can have metamorphosed into something considerably different from what could be supported by the original quote.

Or an annotated sentence get more and more detailed and elaborate over time, with the footnotes suggesting that everything is well-sourced, when in reality, only some simple factoid is really mentioned by the source.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Hi Ed,

It's very simple. Where did the unknown author's knowledge come from? If it's primary documents then the document titles and archive locations should be published. If other sources are used, provide article or book titles and actual author names.

The problem is, there's not even a way to preserve the integrity of statements and footnotes during edits.

Even if the quoted source supports the original statement (which is not a given), after a number of edits, the sentence annotated by the footnote can have metamorphosed into something considerably different from what could be supported by the original quote.

Or an annotated sentence get more and more detailed and elaborate over time, with the footnotes suggesting that everything is well-sourced, when in reality, only some simple factoid is really mentioned by the source.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Hi Henning,

Again, it is very simple. If Wikipedia cannot be trusted then don't trust it. If entries can "magically" change over time then don't trust it at all. Somehow, before "Wikipedia - Free for The People" appeared, research - actual research - was going just fine. It sill is. I am tired of internet anonymity and people being trained to believe it is somehow normal. It's not.

Best,
Ed
 
Hi Ed,

Again, it is very simple. If Wikipedia cannot be trusted then don't trust it. If entries can "magically" change over time then don't trust it at all.

I think we're in agreement there, I was just outlining the interior mechanics :)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
I consider it reliable in terms of mathematics and quantitative science; e.g. discussion of the components of Maxwell's equations, aerodynamics or the mathematical expression of Newtons law of Gravity. I am no longer certain I can rely on it to be truthful about the motivations of historical figures or indeed some aspects of recorded history itself.
 
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