Hellenic Navy Fleet Modernization Program

Grey Havoc said:
https://www.defensenews.com/digital...-greek-frigate-fleet-heres-what-its-offering/
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11 Mk 41 VLS cells is an interesting number. One 8-cell module plus three Single-Cell Launchers or some such arrangement.

The specific capability for CAMM-ER suggests they they have figured out how to extend ExLS Host (the version that fits inside a Mk41 tube) to handle the longer version of CAMM. Probably not hard, since the original version didn't take the full tube depth.
 
I hope there isn't some kind of "Aukos" or "Aukulos" (oculus ? five eyes ? here we go again ! this is is a conspiracy against France !) waiting in the shadows, to screw that big naval French contract :p:p:p:p:p
 
Perhaps not but the PRC and Russia have some frigates to sell on. And on And on......
 
Foo Fighter said:
Perhaps not but the PRC and Russia have some frigates to sell on. And on And on......
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??? Not sure how that relates to Greece.

The interesting thing here is that France ses to have tried to dodge the interim ship question but promising very aggressive delivery on the FDIs (the surplus Lafayettes were never a good option for Greece.) And this announcement still leaves open the issue of whether to do some sort of modernization on the MEKO frigates or just buy new Gowind corvettes instead.

All of which has to come down to when they think a conflict with Turkey might happen. I think they may feel that it's been delayed a few years, so perhaps a total force replacement (a long-term solution) makes more sense than stopgap modernization (more of a quick fix).
 
I am talking about western sources are not the only ones for weapons and platforms out there. The Indians have fielded numerous weapons and systems outside those sources over the years and there could be a sweet point deal if the Greeks were so minded.
 
Foo Fighter said:
I am talking about western sources are not the only ones for weapons and platforms out there. The Indians have fielded numerous weapons and systems outside those sources over the years and there could be a sweet point deal if the Greeks were so minded.
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Not for Greece. They cannot afford to replicate the issues Turkey is running into after buying Russian gear. Greece really wants F-35, for example, which is off the table if they start shopping for Russian SAMs.

Edit: Also, note that a lot of recent Greek procurement choices seem to be about securing allies (hence the selection of French hardware in several cases). Neither Russia nor China are likely allies for Greece in its contest with Turkey.
 
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Makes sense for both countries. I think Rafales are also involved.
France has supplied Greece in the past and the attitudes to the US mesh fairly well.
 
Let's wait and see what happens, a couple of decades ago they brought FREMMs but instead ended up wrangling over costs and nothing materialised.
Admittedly the Greek economy was tanking at that time, but even so the cash to buy new ships and refit the MEKOs has to be found from somewhere.
 
TomS said:
Greece has selected the French FDI. Three ships plus one option. No word yet on the Gowind corvettes that were also rumored.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...u-with-naval-group-and-mbda-for-fdi-frigates/
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Archibald said:
I hope there isn't some kind of "Aukos" or "Aukulos" (oculus ? five eyes ? here we go again ! this is is a conspiracy against France !) waiting in the shadows, to screw that big naval French contract :p:p:p:p:p
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Actually, the procurement decision seems to be tied into Macron's 'Strategic Autonomy' doctrine:
Grey Havoc said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...-deal-greece-leap-towards-european-strategic/
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It looks like the French sidestepped the "interim Frigate" issue by offering up early production which had been intended for their own navy. After the initial hull goes to the MN, the Greeks will get the next couple.
 
I have some issue with the cost. Greek press was widely expecting a 5B€ contract and what was signed today involves "only" 3B€. Any idea why there is such discrepancy?

The Defense pact is significant also on his own terms. It states for example that France and Greece will protect each other in case one is aggressed by another NATO state?!
But any NATO state would be involved in case of such aggression and if not, it's because NATO would be the aggressor!
 
TomcatViP said:
I have some issue with the cost. Greek press was widely expecting a 5B€ contract and what was signed today involves "only" 3B€. Any idea why there is such discrepancy?

The Defense pact is significant also on his own terms. It states for example that France and Greece will protect each other in case one is aggressed by another NATO state?!
But any NATO state would be involved in case of such aggression and if not, it's because NATO would be the aggressor!
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That's a pretty explicit reference to Turkey.
 
And pretty irresponsible. If the vision for an European defense from Mr Macron'S strategic teams is in a way something to rewind the early 20th century bilateral defense pacts that did push Europe into the horror of of WWI, I am not sure that this will fit the call for a safer Europe independent from the USA when it passes the analysis of other states...
 
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TomcatViP said:
I have some issue with the cost. Greek press was widely expecting a 5B€ contract and what was signed today involves "only" 3B€. Any idea why there is such discrepancy?
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There were 3 parts to the contract. What was announced today (€3B) is only for Part 1 - the supply of 3-4 air defence frigates.

The rest of the budget was to cover Parts 2 & 3 which are still under negotiation:

- Part 2 is the “interim solution”, which is turning into the purchase of new build light frigates (NG’s Gowind and Damen’s Sigma were the top candidates) as there weren’t any good used frigates immediately available on the market

- Part 3 is the modernisation of the 4 existing Meko 200 (Hydra) frigates, which will likely be dialed back significantly now that the interim solution is becoming a permanent solution.
 
TomcatViP said:
I have some issue with the cost. Greek press was widely expecting a 5B€ contract and what was signed today involves "only" 3B€. Any idea why there is such discrepancy?
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Gowinds and the Meko modernizations not announced yet. Though frankly it's probably too late for any major modernization to be worth the money, Hydra is already 29 years old.

Side note. apparently Naval sold us 3 frigates for 3 billion when two years ago it was demanding 3.5 billion for TWO in the same layout. Thanks Australia! Double thanks since pre-AUKUS MMSC seemed to be the favourite for entirely political reasons despite being the worst ship on offer. ;)

TomcatViP said:
The Defense pact is significant also on his own terms. It states for example that France and Greece will protect each other in case one is aggressed by another NATO state?!
But any NATO state would be involved in case of such aggression and if not, it's because NATO would be the aggressor!
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Sorry to say but after 1974 you'd find very few Greeks who believed the cold war was likely to ever go hot or that Greece faced any major external danger other than Turkey if it faced one. So yes of course NATO or rather a fellow NATO member would be the aggressor.
 
Lascaris said:
Side note. apparently Naval sold us 3 frigates for 3 billion when two years ago it was demanding 3.5 billion for TWO in the same layout. Thanks Australia! Double thanks since pre-AUKUS MMSC seemed to be the favourite for entirely political reasons despite being the worst ship on offer. ;)
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@Lascaris :
In effect, that's indeed a significant bargain. Thanks for the clarification.
Seems French will now have to adapt the old Greek expression to drink down the Danaides barrel to the one from Adelaide...

Last but not least, have you heard anything about a resale of some M2K BGM/EGM* to a French contractor (private aggressor)?

*Mirage 2000
 
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TomcatViP said:
Lascaris said:
Side note. apparently Naval sold us 3 frigates for 3 billion when two years ago it was demanding 3.5 billion for TWO in the same layout. Thanks Australia! Double thanks since pre-AUKUS MMSC seemed to be the favourite for entirely political reasons despite being the worst ship on offer. ;)
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@Lascaris :
In effect, that's indeed a significant bargain. Thanks for the clarification.
Seems French will now have to adapt the old Greek expression to drink down the Danaides barrel to the one from Adelaide...

Last but not least, have you heard anything about a resale of some M2K BGM/EGM* sale to a French contractor (private aggressor)?

*Mirage 2000
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The EGMs are supposed to be getting retired as soon as the Rafales get delivers. The 2000-5s according to some news the last two days are getting a limited modernization. A pity we had not modernized all EGMs to 2000-5 back in the early 2000s when the cost was reasonable, when the idea was revisited much more recently Dassault was asking for 50-55 million apiece which was not making any sense...
 
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Really surprising given they rejected this very approach in favor of the French ships not long ago.
 
TomS said:
Really surprising given they rejected this very approach in favor of the French ships not long ago.
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Most likely just a negotiation tactic.

Still very early days… no guarantee that Uncle Sam is really interested in selling the Greeks what they want or that the Constellations will be affordable once you layer in all the extra costs of technology transfer, support etc.

For example, at this point the USN hasn’t even bought the design rights so technically it’s not even clear that the US government is in a position to negotiate any build of these ships at other yards.
 
H_K said:
Most likely just a negotiation tactic.

Still very early days… no guarantee that Uncle Sam is really interested in selling the Greeks what they want or that the Constellations will be affordable once you layer in all the extra costs of technology transfer, support etc.

For example, at this point the USN hasn’t even bought the design rights so technically it’s not even clear that the US government is in a position to negotiate any build of these ships at other yards.
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Thing is, the Greeks have already ordered three FDIs (Kimon-class) from Naval Group in France, so I guess this would be part of a second contract to follow after the Kimons. Not that the Greeks don't have a lot of old stuff to replace, but I'm doubtful they have the money.
 
Why not buy the original Fremms instead?
 
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H_K said:
Still very early days… no guarantee that Uncle Sam is really interested in selling the Greeks what they want or that the Constellations will be affordable once you layer in all the extra costs of technology transfer, support etc.
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Uncle Sam right now is very-very interested in something that Greece have; a rather large supply of relatively modern Russian weaponry (mainly air defense systems). Uncle Sam for some reasons want them, and want them now. Which basically put Greece into much stronger than usual bargaining position.
 
Lc89 said:
Why not buy the original Fremms then?
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I haven't been following Italian shipbuilding recently, however, it seems that the Italian Navy may order more FREMMs to the new Freccia Evo standard to replace the Durand de la Penne-class, in addition to the Indonesian order. It may be the case that they have very little capacity in their yards.
 

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