Grigorovich designations

[Stargazer]

Despite the various bits and pieces of Grigorovich on this forum, we never had an actual thread to deal with this engineer's designations.
So here is my list, probably incomplete so please correct it or add to it if you see something wrong or missing!

For Grigorovich's early works with Gakkel, see:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19559.0

Notes:

• Some early M- types were designed as part of the Shchetinin company. They sometimes appear as Shch M-.
• The DI-3 and I-5 were developed jointly by Grigorovich and Polikarpov.
• The DG-52 started off as "ПИ-1" (PI-1) and then became "ИП-1" (IP-1) after engine change (see post below).
• The DG-55 (E-2) is also found as the V-2 (unconfirmed) and the 'Kometa', although the latter one is probably apocryphal as a reference to the De Havilland DH.88 Comet which it looks like.
• The DG-58 wrongly appears as the РB-1 (RV-1) on some sites, a mistake which results from a confusion between the Cyrillic and Western alphabets.

 

[Stargazer]

Found the key to understanding the IP-1/PI-1 confusion under the DG-52 slot: they were basically the same but the engine was different.

 

[Stargazer]

Here is a much improved list of Grigorovich types. Dates of projects are really approximate. They correspond more or less to the genesis of the project, NOT the first flights or operational use.

I can't say for certain which of the pre-DG-52 types corresponded to DG-1 to DG-51 in Grigorovich's mind, but it's pretty clear to me that the DG- designations represented an attempt by the engineer to reorganize his works into a more systematic chronology, with "DG-" meaning Dmitry Grigorovich.

 

[Silencer1]

Hi Stargazer2006!

Thanks for this list!
Some details on MM/MT projects should be corrected.

DG - simply "Dmitiy Grigorivich", not a "design Grigorovicha".
Word "design" came to Russian language, primary in mean "industrial design" in 1960ths...

 

[Stargazer]

Hi Stargazer2006!

Thanks for this list!
Some details on MM/MT projects should be corrected.

DG - simply "Dmitiy Grigorivich", not a "design Grigorovicha".
Word "design" came to Russian language, primary in mean "industrial design" in 1960ths...

Glad you like the list. Thanks for correcting my mistake on the meaning of "DG-"... :-[

And please let me know where I made a mistake on the MM-/MT- designations!

 

[Silencer1]

Hi Stargazer2006!


V.B.Shavrov (in 1st volume of his "History of aircraft designs in USSR) mentioned two torpedo-carriers, designed in OMOS by Grigorovich:
MM-1 (maritime mine-carrier - actually torpedo-bomber) - two-float, two-tail strut-braced monoplane with push-pull "Loorain-Dietrich" 450 hp engines;
after it -
MT-1 (maritime torpedo-bomber) - biplane with 2 BMW-VI engines, based on ROM-1' hull


For me, the most curious thing is a usage term "mine-carrier", because in Russian even at that time there were difference between "seamine" or "mine" (static-placed explosive weapon) and "torpedo " (earlier, in 19th century, called as "self-propelled mine").
Perhaps, Grigorovich has trying to obtain an order from Ostekhburo', where first Soviet underwater weapon have been designed?

We see here one more design - conventional floatplane with two engines. [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9048.msg81309.html#msg81309[/font]

So, even Shavrov didn't mentioned everything

 

[Stargazer]

We see here one more design - conventional floatplane with two engines. http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9048.msg81309.html#msg81309

Thanks. From what I read in that topic (and a few more sources), it seems like the "second" MM was actually designated as "MM-3" and was later redesignated the MT-1 when its mission changed. But of course I can't be positive as this needs further researching... and a better understanding of Russian would certainly help!! :-\

 

[Silencer1]

From what I read in that topic (and a few more sources), it seems like the "second" MM was actually designated as "MM-3" and was later redesignated the MT-1 when its mission changed. But of course I can't be positive as this needs further researching... and a better understanding of Russian would certainly help!! :-\

I hope, some problems would be solved with a help of other members
Russian' experiments with torped-carrying aircraft have been quite limited in pre-1917 period. Grigorovich' GASN, Sikorsky "IM-Gidro" and AIST' project - no real combat, or wide tests. So in 1920ths there were lot attempts to produce such aircraft and weapons.


By the way, it's quite interesting, for what reason, Grigorovich decided to "start" new designation system, with "DG" index. Is it possible, that inone moment is just prepare the list of his own designs and figure out their exact number?

 

[Stargazer]

I suppose he arrived at a point when he felt a need to rationalize the numbering system. It could be for easier referencing... but since I heard that he died soon after, perhaps also he could see it coming and felt the need to go over his design history and list it all, for history purposes? It's a shame anyway that the full DG- list (which I have no doubt MUST have existed, if only in a notebook) didn't get preserved.

 

[Stargazer]

For the sake of visualizing better the various types that Grigorovich built, here is a set of all the best color profiles I could find.
I have resized some of them for better visual coherence, but I cannot guarantee that they are proportionally scaled with one another.

[EDIT: removed the dubious I-1 and also the I-2, which was another I-2bis... :-[ ]

 

[igor-mich]

Dear Stargazer2006, let me know what has to Grigorovich plane "Steel-MAI." Even if your table Set Designer Grushin?

 

[Silencer1]

Hi!

Just a pure speculation - in 1933, Grigorovich (born in 1883) was 50 years old. Perhaps, he decided to mark this with new numerical system of designations for his projects, starting from 50 or 51? Because, first known aircraft with "DG" designation has number "52".
Of course, it's possible that at this moment he just counted (correctly or not) all his designs and started new system.

So, either there were no 51 designs prior to DG-52", or there were such number of consequental designs.
In both cases more data required.

 

[Stargazer]

So, either there were no 51 designs prior to DG-52", or there were such number of consequental designs.

If you look closely at the list I uploaded further up, you'll see that there were approximately 50 separate types before the DG-52, so I think Grigorovich must have counted his designs from the beginning.

Another possibility is that after the M-24 he continued to number them but on paper only. However I don't believe this much because I'm sure some of the intermediary designations would have surfaced in documents or on plans at some point or other.

 

[Stargazer]

Here is a recap of all Grigorovich-related topics on this forum:

• Grigorovich aircraft and projects
• Grigorovich MM Projects
• Grigorovich I-9 & I-10 fighters
• Grigorovich/Shchetinin S-1 & S-2 projects
• Grigorovich MT project
• Early Grigorovich aircraft
• Info about Grigorvich/Shchetinin M-13 & M-14

And also bits and pieces in the following topics:

• TsAGI (Zavod 39) "TsKB-" designations
• Kocherigin Designations
• Competition "Ivanov": military tactical aircraft
• Gakkel - Early Aircraft Russian Designations (Hakkel / Hackel / Gackel)
• ID this Russian Seaplane Project

If I forgot something, please let me know.

 

[Apophenia]

Very handy! Thanks for the topic grouping