Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) UK-Japan-Italy

Leonardo is still pushing for Italy to have an equal industrial split with UK and Japan though reading between the lines it sounds like the Italian government isnt backing this argument financially.

 
so far the government has not implicitly stated a lot, in general Italy now is spending a lot more than the usual amount of money, we are going to buy 24 EF-2000 T4 to replace the old T1, it also appears that in the near future we'll retire Tornado but it isn't confirmed, that means that whenever funds are available it seems italy will start investing more in GCAP, so far the government has been very careful in pubblicising spending, we are in EU election season rn and well, some people are not happy about our renewed defense spending, overall i sincerely belive Italy will step up, maybe not now but in time, i sincerely hope we do get more to do with GCAP because we need it and we need to wake up as a nation, sorry for the politicization everyone but i need to give context since these are the issues here, the issue is not money, it's political, as always...
 
so far the government has not implicitly stated a lot, in general Italy now is spending a lot more than the usual amount of money, we are going to buy 24 EF-2000 T4 to replace the old T1, it also appears that in the near future we'll retire Tornado but it isn't confirmed, that means that whenever funds are available it seems italy will start investing more in GCAP, so far the government has been very careful in pubblicising spending, we are in EU election season rn and well, some people are not happy about our renewed defense spending, overall i sincerely belive Italy will step up, maybe not now but in time, i sincerely hope we do get more to do with GCAP because we need it and we need to wake up as a nation, sorry for the politicization everyone but i need to give context since these are the issues here, the issue is not money, it's political, as always...
I really hope this happens. Italy has talented engineers and the greater the commitment from all parties helps the whole project.
 
Leonardo is still pushing for Italy to have an equal industrial split with UK and Japan though reading between the lines it sounds like the Italian government isnt backing this argument financially.


Maybe good idea we go find one minor partner ..

might that reason Saudi Arabia name in the hat.

Italy 30%
Japan 30%
UK 30%

New nations 10%

Or four in 25% (I were wish "preferred" to have Sweden, Saab; never mind in our team)

I think Sweden would be build for us and put 25% as exchange we buy good single engine loyal wingman Optional unmanned / optional manned trainer two seat or single seat same design aircraft. And some part of Saab to in GCAP.

I think it will benefit for all other 3 nations. To help Sweden fund better.

I think it Is far fetched idea. Sorry of the topic.
 
Honestly, Japan is a fragile partner when it comes to cooperation and sale prospects. Not to some inherent inequities with the others 2 partners on whatever fundamentals but in term of their nation support into something very expensive and at the fringe of their constitution; and in challenging times-

I think GCAP should see the opportunity to have additional partners as a Tier 2 club compartmentalized with the core system where sales prospects and non-traditional partners can have more focus. Saab probably needs a lighter design with RoI coming across a non-national market and Italy is willing to go that way to nurture their tech on a major program. UK will be there, obviously.

Countries like the UAE or Saudi Arabia can have a full weight in design architecture while still reaping the benefits of the full GCAP. What would ensure to make it competitive.
 
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Yes, I'd say so. It's a different journalist talking about different aspects of GCAP, though there's obviously some crossover given that we both spoke to Jonathan Smith.
Seems I have no more excuses other than to rush to buy me a copy ;)
 
The procurement schedule in this financial year was opened at ATLA site
I pick up the related part with next gen fighter.

image1
1: Next gen fighter(no.5 )(1)
2: Manufacturing of test equipment for element level DBF antenna
3: Next mid-range AAM(no.1)
4: Next gen fighter(no.5)(2) engine system for next gen fighter(no.4)
5: FTB(no.2)

1,4 are next phase of preliminary design for air frame and detailed design for engine that have been worked last year.(or one after next for engine)
2 will be related with performance test of the mission system integration that public notice was open in this month
5 is C-2 FTB for the mission system integration.

image2
1: Development for engine e-power generator capability improvement(probably be related)
2: Demonstration experiment for UAV attritable system
3: Research study for CCA

image3
my work with 3D printer:D
I used decals of 1/144 F-35 .
 

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Countries like the UAE or Saudi Arabia can have a full weight in design architecture while still reaping the benefits of the full GCAP. What would ensure to make it competitive.
I'm surprised that the likes of Australia, Singapore and South Korea have not been considered; the latter two operate sizeable F-15 fleets which will require replacing some time in the future, and the former needs a long-ranged, stealth aircraft. I also find it hard that the US would be willing to sell NGAD or F/A-XX; even if there was backing to sell them, they are simply too bespoke for anyone's requirements at present.
 
I'm surprised that the likes of Australia, Singapore and South Korea have not been considered; the latter two operate sizeable F-15 fleets which will require replacing some time in the future, and the former needs a long-ranged, stealth aircraft. I also find it hard that the US would be willing to sell NGAD or F/A-XX; even if there was backing to sell them, they are simply too bespoke for anyone's requirements at present.
Singapore is too close with China to consider sales let alone development partnership. South Korea would be a pride issue on their part, their rather ambitious "plan" to eventually turn the KF-21 into a 6th gen in the 2050s, as well as the export restrictions going against their current export strategy. Australia is one that I would see legitimately hopping on as a partner or at least buying once it's finished.
 
Australia is one that I would see legitimately hopping on as a partner or at least buying once it's finished.

Australia's effectively said they're waiting until they've seen what NGAD has to offer before they even think about deciding which way to go, which is why they're upgrading the remaining Super Hornets.

 
The procurement schedule in this financial year was opened at ATLA site
I pick up the related part with next gen fighter.

image1
1: Next gen fighter(no.5 )(1)
2: Manufacturing of test equipment for element level DBF antenna
3: Next mid-range AAM(no.1)
4: Next gen fighter(no.5)(2) engine system for next gen fighter(no.4)
5: FTB(no.2)

1,4 are next phase of preliminary design for air frame and detailed design for engine that have been worked last year.(or one after next for engine)
2 will be related with performance test of the mission system integration that public notice was open in this month
5 is C-2 FTB for the mission system integration.

image2
1: Development for engine e-power generator capability improvement(probably be related)
2: Demonstration experiment for UAV attritable system
3: Research study for CCA

image3
my work with 3D printer:D
I used decals of 1/144 F-35 .
That's a nice desktop model:)
 
I'm surprised that the likes of Australia, Singapore and South Korea have not been considered; the latter two operate sizeable F-15 fleets which will require replacing some time in the future, and the former needs a long-ranged, stealth aircraft. I also find it hard that the US would be willing to sell NGAD or F/A-XX; even if there was backing to sell them, they are simply too bespoke for anyone's requirements at present.
Kinda depends on whether the bays in NGAD are sized for 2000lb booms or just for AAMs. I'd personally want them sized to be deep enough to take 2000lb bombs, but I somehow suspect that they won't be.

If the NGAD bays are deep enough to hold 2000lb bombs, then it's trivial to make a replacement for the Strike Eagle (or rather, a new F-111). This would be produced at the tail end of the NGAD run, since there's still a good amount of life left in the Strike Eagle airframes.



Australia is getting nuke subs, if someone is allowed to get NGADs its them.
Also requires US Congress to not be stupid and prohibit export, like what happened to F22.
 
I did not like it when the US government banned the sale of the F-22, I would think that the government would not do the same mistake again with the NGAD.
 
I did not like it when the US government banned the sale of the F-22, I would think that the government would not do the same mistake again with the NGAD.
You are giving the various Congresscritters credit for far more intelligence than their actions have shown they possess...
 
I'm surprised that the likes of Australia, Singapore and South Korea have not been considered; the latter two operate sizeable F-15 fleets which will require replacing some time in the future, and the former needs a long-ranged, stealth aircraft. I also find it hard that the US would be willing to sell NGAD or F/A-XX; even if there was backing to sell them, they are simply too bespoke for anyone's requirements at present.
There's zero chance for South Korea to get in the GCAP bus. No chance the Japanese MPs would allow that to happen, and no chance Korean MPs and President be willing to join either. There have been military cooperation with Japan, as in having joint exercises with the US in the middle, or information sharing agreement and framework between the two countries, but an outright procurement of military equipment, and that being not just any military equipment but a damn fighter jet has a whole another level of political significance. Add to that, a joint development programme? No way in hell that happens. There's zero political will in both countries to make that happen, but maximum political incentive to not make that happen.

Singapore is too close with China to consider sales let alone development partnership. South Korea would be a pride issue on their part, their rather ambitious "plan" to eventually turn the KF-21 into a 6th gen in the 2050s, as well as the export restrictions going against their current export strategy. Australia is one that I would see legitimately hopping on as a partner or at least buying once it's finished.
What do you mean by the first sentence? SG being the only country the US is actually willing to sell F-35 in the SEA region tells a lot, and not just that, they are JSF SCP. If they were "too close" to China it's quite obvious that the US would have at least done something with the SCP status. I don't know what the Japanese government would feel about SG, but if anything, they are most probably more inclined towards F-35B even if GCAP members were interested in getting SG aboard. There's no threat to the F-35B equipped RSAF in the the region for the foreseeable future anyways. Why invest in expensive fighter jet development programme?

The problem with SoKor joining GCAP is not just a mere "pride issue" but more fundamental political issue, that I've touched a bit above. Also, the plan is not to turn KF-21 into a 6th gen fighter in the first place. The more recently publicized vision is to develop a new fighter dubbed "KF-XX" based on the technology developed through KF-21 block 3 programme. I've explained this matter multiple times on the relevant thread so there's no need to expand further here, I feel.

More importantly, F-15K replacement is certainly not going to be KF-21. ROKAF is currently undergoing policy research for future force mix and fighter fleet expansion, and preliminary results points to more "hi" fighters in the hi-lo mix (or to be exact, hi-medium-lo mix, as that's the ROKAF taxonomy) rather than expanding the fleet quantitatively. Up until now, the number of "hi" fighters in ROKAF was capped at 120 aircraft and were procured from abroad through F-X programmes; 4 iteration of F-X, 40 F-15K, 20 F-15K, 40 F-35A and 20 F-35A. What the new policy research indicates is that there would be legal basis for the ROKAF to demand more hi fighters to Joint Chiefs of Staffs.

With the new policy they will not only replace F-15K, but most probably also the KF-16U (or at least part of the 140 of them) with a new, heavy, hi fighter, and that's not a shoe the KF-21 can fill. Also, to develop and replace the aging "hi" fleet with a Korean fighter is relatively new idea. At least up until mid 2010s, the future plan has always been to replace KF-16U with the evolved KF-X (now KF-21 block 3) and the F-15K with another imported "hi" fighter in the 2040s. More importantly, this vision of Korean future "hi" fighter is up in the air, since there's more than 20 years left until ROKAF is planning to retire the F-15K. There's no one who could say for sure how they will be replaced, hence the reason I called it a "vision" rather than a "plan". The priority vision, if I can call it that way.

Frankly, Tempest would've been a perfect fit, though with various programmes taking shape, it became more clear that there ain't much option when it comes to procuring next gen fighter from abroad while keeping the industry going. The birth of this idea of Korean heavy hi fighter would have in part been motivated by the fact that Tempest evolved into GCAP with Japanese participation, and the fact that NGAD seems out of touch, both in terms of US interest in exporting them, as well as Korean financial capabilities to actually procure and operate them.

If the main GCAP partners were to arrange and accept "tier 2" partners in the near future as has been expressed recently, I can definitely see the likes of Saudi Arabia or Australia joining in, but I don't see Korea or Singapore being interested.
 
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I did not like it when the US government banned the sale of the F-22, I would think that the government would not do the same mistake again with the NGAD.
With the F-22, going by how expensive it was to procure and operate, there weren't much candidates in the first place. Though Japan was the most interested, and going by the numbers they would've potentially procured, I agree that it would've certainly helped F-22's case in terms of unit cost and sustainability, and that US made a mistake there.

Though with NGAD I think it's a whole different story. Apart from Australia, Canada and Korea (and maybe Netherlands), there is basically zero potential customer that would meet the security criteria (being a US ally), has the financial capability to afford it in the first place, and could actually sustain them without going bankrupt. Everyone else who meets those three criterias are doing their own thing. I can see Australia getting themselves PCA, like others have pointed out, but I don't think there's a political will in Canada or Netherlands to procuring such expensive equipment.
 
With the F-22, going by how expensive it was to procure and operate, there weren't much candidates in the first place. Though Japan was the most interested, and going by the numbers they would've potentially procured, I agree that it would've certainly helped F-22's case in terms of unit cost and sustainability, and that US made a mistake there.

Though with NGAD I think it's a whole different story. Apart from Australia, Canada and Korea (and maybe Netherlands), there is basically zero potential customer that would meet the security criteria (being a US ally), has the financial capability to afford it in the first place, and could actually sustain them without going bankrupt. Everyone else who meets those three criterias are doing their own thing. I can see Australia getting themselves PCA, like others have pointed out, but I don't think there's a political will in Canada or Netherlands to procuring such expensive equipment.
Canada doesn't have a big enough economy to buy any NGADs.
 
Canada doesn't have a big enough economy to buy any NGADs.
If you seriously think that, go look up again. Why do you think they're part of G7?

On top of that, seeing someone who wrote
I did not like it when the US government banned the sale of the F-22, I would think that the government would not do the same mistake again with the NGAD.
agreeing to your opinion that "Canada can't afford NGAD" makes it even more puzzling, because it defeats his whole notion that it would be a "mistake" to not sell NGAD. Mate, there won't be no "mistake" in not selling NGAD when no one could actually afford it, because if you really think Canada can't, no one could.
 
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it's a pity that joint uk-japan further development of meteor missile did not continue to production models
they presumably did some test launch of the upgraded seeker meteor, but that just ended there
It was blocked by other countries involved in the Meteor IIRC.
 
If that was the case then we should design our own future missile to replace the Meteor, and make it truly long range just like the Russian R-37M so that GCAP/Tempest can hit targets out towards in excess of 400km.
 
That would certainly be what I am thinking of for a future long range Meteor missile replacement Forest Green.
 
Once again, if everyone outta there is stealth, what's the point of spending money on very long range missiles incapable to go after a Mach2+ bandit ?
 
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Try telling that to the Russians who have the 400km range R-37M on the MiG-31 and the Su-35.
 
Once again, if everyone outta there is stealth, what's the point of spending money on very long range missiles incapable to go after a Mach2+ bandit ?
Killing AEW/C4ISTAR planes, and not everyone is stealth, not by a long way.
 
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