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Germany seeks pricing for 41 CH-53K King Stallions

Triton

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"Germany seeks pricing for 41 CH-53K King Stallions"
17 May, 2016 BY: James Drew Washington DC

Source:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/germany-seeks-pricing-for-41-ch-53k-king-stallions-425387/

The US government is preparing a response to Germany’s letter of request for pricing and availability of 41 heavy-lift Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion helicopters to begin replacing the 80 G-models the country currently operates.

Berlin is considering both the CH-53K and the Boeing CH-47 Chinook to meet its heavy vertical lift requirement, and the US Marine Corps is keen to take advantage of the better pricing that could be achieved by adding a sizable King Stallion order at the front-end of the production ramp.

The new model, which first flew in October, has twice the max gross take-off weight of the legacy CH-53G operated by the Luftwaffe at 40t (88,000lb) with external loads compared to 19t (42,000lb).

US Naval Air Systems Command’s (NAVAIR) H-53 programme manager (PMA-261) Col Henry Vanderborght said at the Navy League Sea-Air-Space conference in Washington DC that adding foreign military customers achieves better production pricing, improves interoperability between allies and lowers shared upgrade and sustainment costs.

“The marines are buying 200 aircraft. Add another roughly 50 aircraft [and] that’s 25% more and tremendous savings for the US government in terms of production costs,” says Vanderborght on 16 May. “Beyond production, think about sustainment. Any new software upgrade, any new capability we need: if a foreign partner wants that too, we could share the development costs.”

Vanderborght and Sikorsky CH-53K chief Mike Torok believe that Germany is the nearest term opportunity to add an international customer, and the next would be Israel, which operates 23 CH-53s.

The CH-53 users group includes the US Marine Corps, Germany, Israel and Japan, and those operators meet twice yearly to discuss sustainment, support and upgrades. Those nations are kept well informed about the CH-53K's progress.

Torok says Germany has not settled on an official programme timeline yet. In January, Flightglobal reported that Germany ideally wants to sign a deal in 2018 for initial deliveries beginning in 2022. Sikorsky says discussions have ranged from “40 to 60 or so” aircraft and a request for proposals is expected next year.

“We knew all along once we started flying and making this pivot to production that the interest would start peaking and we’ve gotten some requests from some other countries who are not traditionally CH-53 drives,” he says. “The stuff everyone wants to carry is getting heavier, so the basic aircraft have just run out of capability, especially in very hot conditions where you have limitations."

Boeing is upbeat about the Chinook’s prospects in Germany, but as the CH-53K programme gathers momentum in anticipation of initial operational capability with four combat-ready aircraft in 2019, the competition is expected to be heated.

Vanderborght says the CH-53K is not a one-for-one replacement because of its outsized lifting capacity, and fewer aircraft means less overall force structure and personnel. Torok says Lockheed Martin-owned Sikorsky expects to build anywhere up to 300 aircraft and is preparing to add Germany at the front end, if needed.

NAVAIR recently put Sikorsky on contract for long-lead parts for the first two aircraft of Lot 1, and is working toward a Milestone C decision that will enable low-rate production to start in 2017.

Two aircraft are already flying, five are in testing, and another eight are at various stages of assembly. Sikorsky completed an internal production readiness review in March, ahead of a formal government review planned for later this year.

All 200 USMC aircraft are expected to be in place by 2029 to achieve full operational capability, with production ramping up to 24 CH-53Ks per year in beginning in 2025.
 

Michel Van

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yes the German Luftwaffe need a replacement Fast

CH-53 G (S-65C-1) was order in 1968 and 110 units were build in Germany
today only 60 are left, the rest of 46 were cannibalized for spare parts over time.
4 went lost in accident, one was do mechanical failure do old age.

do change in German Military doctrine because Terrorist threats in Europe and NATO-Russia tension
the Minister of Defense Ursula von der Leyen announced a major increase in defense spending
troops force goes to 185,000 soldiers and new equipment is buy

like successor to G38 gun, the CH-53K also urgent needed Transall C-160 replacement,
but since Airbus A400M Atlas program is in desperate state,
i would be not surprise if Ursula von der Leyen announced to buy transport aircraft elsewhere...
 

fredymac

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"like successor to G38 gun"

Do you mean G36? I really wonder if there isn't a technical fix for that gun or if politics is forcing total abandonment.
 

Anderman

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fredymac said:
"like successor to G38 gun"

Do you mean G36? I really wonder if there isn't a technical fix for that gun or if politics is forcing total abandonment.

No he meaned G38 that is the official designation for the H&K 416A5 rifle an AR-15 clone/variant.
 

Michel Van

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fredymac said:
"like successor to G38 gun"

Do you mean G36? I really wonder if there isn't a technical fix for that gun or if politics is forcing total abandonment.

your right, my mistake this is H&K G36, a gun that not work if overheated and jam.
for moment they look got G38 (H&K 416) as replacement but if that happen is another question.
 

Flyaway

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CH-53K helicopter to make international debut at ILA Berlin show

Sikorsky has confirmed that the CH-53K King Stallion will make its air show debut at next year's ILA Berlin event, as the airframer pursues a lucrative export contract with Germany.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ch-53k-helicopter-to-make-international-debut-at-ila-443566/
 

yasotay

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Well here is to hoping that the Bundeswehr gets a fire sale/Black Friday/new customer appreciation price for their K's. The U.S. Army took one look, left the show room, and got back in to their 60 Buick station wagon and left the dealership.
 

Flyaway

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Sikorsky teams with Rheinmetall for German heavy lift competition

http://www.janes.com/article/77635/sikorsky-teams-with-rheinmetall-for-german-heavy-lift-competition
 

fightingirish

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Twitter: https://twitter.com/MILTECH1/status/988708671336210432
 

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TomS

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fightingirish said:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MILTECH1/status/988708671336210432

Fennek tank? Seriously, Sikorsky, you're supposed to be in the defense business. Would it kill you to look it up?

This is not a tank.

7s0dqvE.jpg
 

marauder2048

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I've seen it called a "Spähpanzer" so if you use the crude English translation of "panzer" you get a tank!
 

Foo Fighter

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I thought it was only the news reporters who called everything with a gun a 'tank'.
 

sferrin

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Foo Fighter said:
I thought it was only the news reporters who called everything with a gun a 'tank'.

If LCS can be called a "battleship" this can be called a tank. ;)
 

Jemiba

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Principally it's called "Spähwagen" (recce vehicle/car) and as it has some kind of
protection often "Panzerspähwagen" (armoured recce vehicle).
In German parlance the term "tank" mainly is used for armoured vehicles with caterpillar
tracks.
So, to call it a "tank" really is more the diction of well informed journalists, I think.
 

sferrin

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Somewhat disappointed as they'd said in AvWeek that they were going to push it pretty hard (and I've seen videos of CH-53Es flying WAY more impressively than this). Just about put me to sleep. :-\
 
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Foo Fighter

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sferrin said:
Foo Fighter said:
I thought it was only the news reporters who called everything with a gun a 'tank'.

If LCS can be called a "battleship" this can be called a tank. ;)

Pretty soon, two boy scouts sharing a Swiss army knife will be called an anti-tank unit. But ONLY if the blade is blunt. Health and safety don'cha know.
 

sferrin

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Foo Fighter said:
sferrin said:
Foo Fighter said:
I thought it was only the news reporters who called everything with a gun a 'tank'.

If LCS can be called a "battleship" this can be called a tank. ;)

Pretty soon, two boy scouts sharing a Swiss army knife will be called an anti-tank unit. But ONLY if the blade is blunt. Health and safety don'cha know.

Sporks are called broadswords in the UK. Water pistols are assault rifles.
 

RavenOne

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I attended ILA last week so here are my photos of King Stallion - on static and performing. Here’s also an extract from presentation specifically for the Luftwaffe requirement, cheers
 

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RavenOne

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And my photos of her Flying.

Cheers
 

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TomcatViP

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The CH-53K demonstrated exceptional performance throughout its initial sea trials continuing the team’s progress towards initial operational test and evaluation in 2021 and deployment in 2023-2024

Executing 364 ship landings and takeoffs from all deck spots, expanding the wind envelope, performing multiple towing and hanger evolutions, and conducting multiple rotor blade spread, fold, engagement and disengagement operations, the CH-53K is right at home aboard a large-deck amphibious ship and is one step closer to deployment.
 

TomcatViP

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A comparative assessment of Chinook and King for Germany :
 

Deino

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yasotay

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While the CH-53 has been a workhorse for the Bundeswehr, I am betting on the CH-47. The price difference is significant and the economy of using a helicopter already used by several NATO countries will mean mature training and maintenance for Germany to integrate into. While the "Kilo" can carry more and is as deployable as the CH-47 I think the Bundestag (or whatever it is now) is going to remain miserly on defense spending.
 

yasotay

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I am sure that the Sikorsky product is preferred by the 53G crews and staff contingent.
 

uk 75

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Meanwhile the UK has consistently prefered the Chinook, as explained in the excellent Blue Envoy Air Staff and the Helicopter. Of course West Germany got its CH53s long before the RAF got Chinooks. They have proved very effective.
 

sferrin

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Meanwhile the UK has consistently prefered the Chinook, as explained in the excellent Blue Envoy Air Staff and the Helicopter. Of course West Germany got its CH53s long before the RAF got Chinooks. They have proved very effective.

The K is quite a bit more capable than the E. I don't think the Chinook has kept pace.
 

yasotay

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Clearly the K has more capability than the latest 47. All of the 47's improvements since D have done little more than attempt to get back to the ORIGINAL lift requirement. IMHO the cost of the K, and the mature interoperability with other NATO members who use 47's will argue against it. While it is prudent for the Lockheed Team to bring on more German industry onto the team I do not see K being more than a USMC, German, and possibly Israeli system. Neither system met the original cost expectations of the German government. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. That said I do think it is very much anybody's game at this point.
 

uk 75

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The Germans have special helicopter carried armoured vehicles (Wiesel) which were designed around the CH53. The CH53 was also used during various flood emergencies to carry material.
Both the Heer and the RAF seem loyal to their respective choices.
France developed the Super Frelon but the Armee de l'Air has never adopted an HLH.. Maybe they will with the next generation.
 

TomS

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The Germans have special helicopter carried armoured vehicles (Wiesel) which were designed around the CH53. The CH53 was also used during various flood emergencies to carry material.
Both the Heer and the RAF seem loyal to their respective choices.
Wiesel should fit in a CH-47. After all, the Chinook is actually slightly larger internally than the CH-53D and E. (The King is another matter; it is bigger than the previous versions of -53).
 

TomcatViP

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@uk 75 :Notice that the super Frelon was designed for the French Navy on a S-61 power train to mainly replace their S-58 ;)
 

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Ah the Chinook vs Stallion debate! love it! you've seen them fighting for US Marine orders, Germany, Israel, and some others.
and the debates are always interesting.
 
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