German experimental guided bomb ID

[Grzesio]

Does anybody know such a German winged bomb - forward part of which is shown in the drawing?
The bomb is built around a SC 250 body equipped with fairly complex wings (comprising of flat plate inner sections plus relatively thick airfoil profile outer sections, separated by arrow shaped plates), a cylinder housing some equipment is mounted behind the warhead, apparently followed by a kind of a tail boom. Appearance of the tail of the bomb is not known.
The bomb is clearly guided as a multi-pin electrical socket is placed on top of the rear cylinder and a wire connects the cylinder with at least left wing - so probably the thick outer wing sections could house some kind of steering equipment, e.g. spoilers - precise details of the outer wing sections are sadly not known.
Wingspan is approx. 170 cm, length of the warhead with cylinder - 140 cm.
Any ideas?

 

[T-50]

I know a project known as the Seedorf project this was a TV guided bomb very advanced for the time!

 

[Harry64]

Maybe the "Pirat-H" Sturzbombe


Only measurements in the wind tunnel, which was completed in the winter of 1942, the "Pirat-H" did not continue its project.

Developed as a competitor to the "Fritz-X".

 

[Grzesio]

Yes, the arrow shaped plates on the wings show similarity to the Pirat-H indeed - so it can be suspected, it is somehow related to the Pirat-H or at least made by Rheinmetall. But this unknown bomb is much smaller - and very different in general layout.
BTW - it's hard to tell, Pirat-H was a competitor of the Fritz-X, as the latter was designed and built some three years earlier.

 

[Harry64]

Attempts and experiments regarding the Fritz-X began in 1938/39, we don't know when the experiments with the Pirat-H started, so it can certainly be a competitive model! So it is not hard to tell!

 

[Grzesio]

so it can certainly be a competitive model!

Well, Pirat-H was undergoing wind tunnel tests when Fritz X was practically operational, so it's hard to tell they were competitors. Of course, one can assume, works on both of them were started in the same period and Fritz was chosen already before prototypes were built - but Rheinmetall still continued theoretical works with the Pirat until 1942, just to obtain more experiences. There are examples of projects still continued after their official cancellation, e.g. Rheintochter R III.

 

[Dilandu]

I know a project known as the Seedorf project this was a TV guided bomb very advanced for the time!

Well, considering that USA have the working GB-4 TV guided bomb & tested several others (including Roc), I'd say that Germans were behind the tech curve as usual.

 

[edwest4]

I know a project known as the Seedorf project this was a TV guided bomb very advanced for the time!

Well, considering that USA have the working GB-4 TV guided bomb & tested several others (including Roc), I'd say that Germans were behind the tech curve as usual.

False.

"Following German success with the Hs-293 and Fritz-X, the U.S. began developing several similar weapons, such as Felix, Bat, Gargoyle, GB-8, and GB-4."

 

[Wurger]

Dilandu said:

Well, considering that USA have the working GB-4 TV guided bomb & tested several others (including Roc), I'd say that Germans were behind the tech curve as usual.

You really should broaden your knowledge beyond Wikipedia. This is a serious forum.

 

[Dilandu]

You really should broaden your knowledge beyond Wikipedia. This is a serious forum.

Yes, you really should. Try "Near Miss: The Army Air Forces' Guided Bomb Program in World War II - Donald J. Hanle (2007)", and "OP 1664 U.S. Explosive Ordnance " and "Unmanned Systems of World War I and II - Everett H.R., MIT press (2015) " Or "Guided missiles and techniques" from NDRC (1946)

The last one I recommend specifically, it have a lot of specifications on Bat, Felix and Roc bombs, including seeker schemes and working diagrams. As well as on numerous seeker prototypes, control systems, autopilots, ect.

 

[Dilandu]

False.

"Following German success with the Hs-293 and Fritz-X, the U.S. began developing several similar weapons, such as Felix, Bat, Gargoyle, GB-8, and GB-4."

Sigh.

The SWOD program - that created "Bat" - was started in early 1942, long before any German guided bomb appeared on horizon.

The GB series - which created GB-1, GB-4, GB-8 and other examples - was started in March 1941. GB-1 was combat-ready in October 1943, only lack of training prevented her earlier deployment. GB-4 was first tested in August 1944.

The VB series - which created AZON and Felix - was, again, started in 1942. The first prototype Felix seekers were ready at January 1944.

Only LBD "Gargoyle" rocket-powered bomb could be - tentatively! - be a result of contact with German Fritz-X.

You really should broaden your knowledge beyond Wikipedia. This is a serious forum. Try the books I mentioned above, they are quite informative and have a lot of valuable data.

 

[Dilandu]

Seriously, I'm a bit appalled that on Secret Project forum - peoples still thought that US guided weapon programs were "following Germany." As if there were anything to follow!

 

[Wurger]

Grzegorz, could it be one of the 1938 experiments carried by Max Kramer within the DVL with radio controlled bombs? He "played" with 100 and 250 Kg bombs, I suppose SC`s. The arrow shaped plates, though, make it more close to the much latter Pirat-H. Some of the first prototypes were smaller than the PC-1400, as in the first seconds of this Youtube footage:

Also mind the image, with electro-optical guidadnce by Carl Zeiss, taken from https://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/web/new site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

 

[Grzesio]

Yes, I thought of something like this too - this mysterious bomb bears some similarity to e.g. the GB 200 (although I've never seen any picture of the latter, just a description), as far as its size and sheet metal wings are concerned, although there are obvious differences too. I think it's probably just a test vehicle for basic trials of certain solutions.

 

[GARGEAN]

How exactly TV guidance in those times was conducted? What served as sensor?

 

[Dilandu]

How exactly TV guidance in those times was conducted? What served as sensor?

The GB-4 glide bomb used a RCA Block III-A iconoscope camera & radio transmitter, put under hull of the bomb. The camera pod was sound-insulated, because it was sound that vibrations badly affected the already-limited ability of the camera.

Onboard the control plane, operator used BLOCK III-B television receiver, to view the camera transmission on the small screen. He then used joystick to control the bomb course. The remote control system was based on FM tone modulation; each command (right/left/up/down) was encoded by acoustic tone on carrier frequency. Onboard the bomb, signal from receiver was feed into an array of filters, each of which was set to the specific tone. When the specific tone arrived, it passed through the filter, and the output voltage activated the servo relays.

You could see quite nice video here about GB-4 bomb test run:

It was far from perfect weapon; almost all its combat runs were spoiled either by bad weather or by television equipment flaws (one specific was, that when bomb were close to the ground, the signal from its transmitter started to reflect from surface, and if control plane was too close, the image on operator screen - already abysmal - started to double & became incomprehensible). Still, this weapon was used, and was more advanced that anything Germans managed to deploy.

 

[GARGEAN]

Really good info, thanks.

 

[Dilandu]

Really good info, thanks.

You are welcome!

 

[Grzesio]

Well... An unpowered guided bomb, designation unknown.

 

[Wurger]

Well... An unpowered guided bomb, designation unknown.

That looks much like the one you first posted, with the missing parts. What's your source, Grzegorz?

 

[Grzesio]

Yes, it's obviously the one. The drawing comes from a Polish book "Rakiety bojowe" (Combat rockets) from 1974, a popular and often not too reliable work, there's only the drawing (presented just as an example of an unpowered guided bomb) with no further information, it's not even identified as German. The drawing is clearly copied from an earlier publication, I suspect something Soviet from 1940s-60s.

 

[Wurger]

Yes, it's obviously the one. The drawing comes from a Polish book "Rakiety bojowe" (Combat rockets) from 1974, a popular and often not too reliable work, there's only the drawing (presented just as an example of an unpowered guided bomb) with no further information, it's not even identified as German. The drawing is clearly copied from an earlier publication, I suspect something Soviet from 1940s-60s.

Thanks for sharing. Great stuff!

 

[pathology_doc]

Still, this weapon was used, and was more advanced that anything Germans managed to deploy.

The Germans appear to have managed more stunning successes- or at least impact - with their weapons. Sank the Roma, nearly sank the Warspite, badly damaged several other ships, etc. etc. First large-scale use of unmanned missiles, both "cruise" and ballistic. In experience of application, it could be argued they were well ahead of the curve - and even if Allied projects were actually technologically "better", the Germans came closer to to actually deploying them (or at least having something they could fire). Where, for example, was the Allied surface-air missile programme at the end of the European war?

 

[Dilandu]

The Germans appear to have managed more stunning successes- or at least impact

Yeah, Germans were always good in show, much less in actual results. Thing is, that US simply do not need to rely so much on experimental weapons. Germany hanged on straws, desperately hoping for some "wunderwaffe" to magically do the job, but their technology simply wasn't fit for the task. Allies viewed any innovative weapons as experiment firstly, and were cautious to not rely too much on unproven designs.

. In experience of application, it could be argued they were well ahead of the curve

Nah, they simply wasted resources on programs that obviously could not do what they wanted.

Where, for example, was the Allied surface-air missile programme at the end of the European war?

Actually, more advanced than Germans.


Brakemine surface-to-air missile, designed by British. Solid-fueled, with fully automatic beam-riding radar guidance; generation more advanced than anything German actually have.

 

[klem]