German EMW A8 (possibly Super V-2) - question about size

[Wasp]

And another rocket question, hoping to find some information through the esteemed members of this board.

I'm also looking for some measures on the EMW A8 rocket.

There are differing information about this project floating around.
It seems that the A8 is the name of a prolonged A4 version which should have used a Salbei/Visol-engine instead of the usually very hard to store rocket fuels.
The only measure to be found through the web is a diameter of 0,78m, which is by far to small to be a A4 variant (A4 diameter: 1,65m), but is the diameter of the A5.
However there is a drawing for comparison of the EMW rockets from wikipedia, which shows an A8 that is 3m longer than the standard A4 (see below), which would be far more fitting. Also the illustration of Mark Wade (below) in www.astronautix.com looks by the proportion more like the longer A4.

Some sources mention that this design was taken over and developed further by the french also known as the Super V-2.
But information on this french Super V-2 is equally hard to come by.

So any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[FutureSpaceTourist]

Scott may be able to help you, as he has some A4 related docs (including one on the A8) for sale at http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspaceother.htm#spacedoc4

 

[Michel Van]

on A-8
they use fuel "Gasöl" (Diesel oil) / oxidizer "Salbei" (Nitric acid)
with diverent Tanks design
the Engine were redesigned with turbopumps
so no steam turbines who use hydrogen peroxide with potassium permanganate catalyst.
but there no detailed designs only sketch and basic calculation.

4 version of A-8 were study
1. in size of A4, 1 ton payload, the range of 390 km. mass 17650 kg, thrust of 30000 kg
13,95 meter long core diameter 1,65 meter
2. stretched version, 1 ton payload, the range of 415 km. mass 20240 kg, thrust of 30000 kg
14,85 meter long core diameter 1,65 meter
3. more stretched version,1 ton payload, the range of 500 km. mass 22370 kg thrust of 35000 kg
16,46 meter long core diameter 1,65 meter
4. same size like 3. 2 ton payload, the range of 300 km. mass 22300 kg, thrust of 35000 kg
16,46 meter long core diameter 1,65 meter

Source:
Aerospace project Review pV5N6 September-Oktober 2003
by Scott Lowther

on french Super-V2
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5865.0.html

 

[Wasp]

Thanks so far for the information. Especially the data of the 4 A8 variants is very helpful!

 

[Wasp]

Mymy, didn't got around two days to check on my threads and see what happend...

Although I can't post within my original thread about the EMW A11, I still wanted to say thanks to all the people that did provide constructive opinions.
Yes, it is a highly speculative theme, and there would have been surely still some ideas to discuss about, like the interesting one of the wingless A10 within the A11 (although the illustration shows wings) and more.

However, I certainly won't say thanks to those starting to insult others and getting the thread locked.

 

[Orionblamblam]

, like the interesting one of the wingless A10 within the A11 (although the illustration shows wings)

Keep in mind, the lone illustration of the A-11 (at least, the lone A-11 illustration that seems to have anything to do with the actual Peenemunde rocketeers) was created circa 1946 by de Beek (an illustrator who worked at Peenemunde) while in Texas. With the dearth of any actual documentation, this illustration may represent what Von Braun called an A-11... or it may represent what Von Braun was trying to sell to the US Army that *they* could build.

In any event, the presense of fins on all three stages of the A-9/10/11 indicates a distinct lack of engineering rigor. By this point, the utility of large fins was already well known to be over-estimated; all of the rockets developed in the early post war years had fins far smaller than those of the V-2, WRT body size. However, in the *very* early post war years, when everyone was still tryign to digest German rocket knowledge, the use of large V-2-esque fins on conceptual designs was ever-present... because the American designers just sorta assumed that if the V-2 had 'em, they had to be there for a reason. So while a lot of the American large rockets designed without the benefit of the Germans had minimal or non-existent fins (such as the NAA HATV and the Douglas World Circling Rocket of 1946, many others had very V-2-like fins (such as the NAA nuclear-powered ICBM of 1947). Thus, if you're trying to sell a rocket concept in the early post-war years, it makes sense to play to expectations, and tack on V-2-like fins. Salesmanship, not engineering, often rules early studies.


With the A-11 the first stage fins are truly enormous, and the second and third stage fins are entirely superfluous. The A-9 of A-9/A-10 fame had fins because it was meant to actually fly in the atmosphere; the A-10 atop the A-11 might have had some small use for stabilizing fins (far smaller fins than the ground-launched A-10 would have needed), but the A-9 would have had no use for fins whatsoever as a satellite vehicle. Instead, it likely would have used beefed-up graphite vanes or some other thrust vectoring system for control and stability.

While von Braun is kinda difficult to contact these days, other Peenemunde rocketeers I've contacted over the years have all declared that there was no such thing as the A-11. By far the most likely explanation for the A-11 and A-12 is that they were ideas von Braun had while in Germany, but did not become "projects" until he was negotiating with the US Army.