Future USAF Transport Projects (MACK, ATT, NGT, AMC-X, AJACS, HAWSTOL, Speed Agile)

Interesting that General Paul Selva isn't talking about a replacement for the Lockheed Martin C-5M Super Galaxy in the '30s or '40s. Will there be another SLEP for the C-5 in the early 2030s or will the C-5 be retired with no aircraft to replace it?

bobbymike said:
If requirements demand an aircraft able to operate in contested or denied airspace, that suggests curtailing C-130 buys late in this decade, he said, so that the Air Force isn't "buying ourselves into a legacy airplane" that can't do the job. Much depends on how the Army shapes itself for "tactical and operational maneuver" and "the contribution that [air]lifter will make to that maneuver," said Selva.

Based on Selva's comments, it looks like Air Mobility Command is looking at a stealth airlifter to replace the C-130 and the C-17. Can one stealth planform perform both strategic and tactical airlift operations? Or is AMC going to develop two stealth planforms--one for strategic airlift and another for tactical airlift? Is a C-17-sized cargo capacity over-kill for tactical airlift? What about sales to foreign air forces? Still doesn't look like AMC wants the Airbus A400M Atlas, despite the efforts of EADS. Further, does FVL-Ultra step on AMC's toes in the area of tactical airlift?
 
Interesting... we do indeed live in interesting times. I think they are not going to be happy with their "customers" desires. JFTL/FVL-U/etc., with abilities to land at other than airports in smaller spaces (i.e. 1500 ft) remain the US Army desires I imagine.

What good is stealth going to do for you if the foe knows that you HAVE to go to the airports regardless?
 
yasotay said:
Interesting... we do indeed live in interesting times. I think they are not going to be happy with their "customers" desires. JFTL/FVL-U/etc., with abilities to land at other than airports in smaller spaces (i.e. 1500 ft) remain the US Army desires I imagine.

What good is stealth going to do for you if the foe knows that you HAVE to go to the airports regardless?

We've already talked about the United States Air Force's preference for jet-powered aircraft. A stealth requirement pretty much ensures that a new strategic or tactical airlifter is a jet rather than a turboprop or tiltrotor.
 
By the way - does anyone know of research on the internal volume losses (and inlet losses vs. tip efficiency gains) of a ducted turboprop? How high can you push the bypass in a stealth design?
 
Triton said:
yasotay said:
Interesting... we do indeed live in interesting times. I think they are not going to be happy with their "customers" desires. JFTL/FVL-U/etc., with abilities to land at other than airports in smaller spaces (i.e. 1500 ft) remain the US Army desires I imagine.

What good is stealth going to do for you if the foe knows that you HAVE to go to the airports regardless?

We've already talked about the United States Air Force's preference for jet-powered aircraft. A stealth requirement pretty much ensures that a new strategic or tactical airlifter is a jet rather than a turboprop or tiltrotor.
I agree. And that is why I find General Selva's comment about what the Army needs very disingenuous. The Army has stated their need for ten years. The Army spent two years working with AMC on what they need. The USAF Inc., nodded their head north/south and said, "That's not what we are going to do." So I think it will be interesting to see how the USAF gets a (inexpensive) stealth cargo aircraft through Congress without their primary customer having any of their primary requirements met.
 
Avimimus said:
By the way - does anyone know of research on the internal volume losses (and inlet losses vs. tip efficiency gains) of a ducted turboprop? How high can you push the bypass in a stealth design?


you can push the bypass as high as you want - you then just need a forty-foot long serpentine inlet!
I'm not trying to be facetious, but a ducted turboprop is essentially a turbofan, right?
either way, there is no possible LO solution where there is line of sight to spinning masses.
 
yasotay said:
What good is stealth going to do for you if the foe knows that you HAVE to go to the airports regardless?

Then they probably don't intend to land these aircraft despite the artist's impressions. Air Mobility Command is probably thinking about using stealth airlifters for airborne forces, airdrops, and low-level extraction operations in denied or contested airspace. Perhaps USSOCOM is thinking about dropping special forces operators and equipment in covert operations. The aircraft probably won't land until air supremacy is established around airfields or airports.

Further, would air forces need to refuel aircraft in denied or contested airspace to make a stealth tanker worthwhile?
 
Triton said:
The aircraft probably won't land until air supremacy is established around airfields or airports.
Having air supremacy does not make an airfield secure at all. Given that most airports are within urban environments, the concrete and electronic jungle is the perfect place to hide MANPADS, heavy sniper rifles, medium and heavy caliber machine guns, mortars, ATGM and artillery. The problem is so bad the US military has coined a term Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2AD) that is a cornerstone of their future concepts. Then there are the asymmetric challenges: massed laser pointers, groups of cell phone flown quad-copter UAS, fireworks, etc. Navies have the same challenges with ports.
I agree that they won't want to land. This will be a problem for SOCOM as many of their missions require equipment that does not airdrop well. I will agree that para-drop is still a viable solution in some circumstances, but given that only a small percentage of the AMC C-17 and C-130 aircrews are maintained as para-drop qualified, moving a large airborne force on a couple days notice may be hard.
Ultimately, is it really worth the very large cost to design and build a stealthy airlifter when something like > 95% of the missions the aircraft will perform do not require it? Given Moore's Law and the big changes in radar technology is it worth the expense for something that may not be stealthy when it reaches operations?
 
Couple of items:

The C-17 can carry three (3) times the weight into the same length strip as a C-130.

After the OIF deep strike mission in which the AH-64 force was mauled the Army lost enthusiasim in vertical lift operations in contested areas.

The Army's Future Combat System, FCS, has also lost favor. Seems that the wheeled vehicles envisioned did not offer enough armor protection to make them survivable on the battlefield. Also it appears that it was this program that drove the Army's desire for aircraft such as the quad tiltrotor.

If you can determine the allowable soil bearing pressure you can design any system around it. Typically as others have mentioned the heavier the aircraft the less times it can land on a given surface.

If you could find a quick way to drop 8 light/utility poles you have plenty of 1500+ foot spaces with acceptable bearing capacity on the highways of the world.
 
I can see the need to use a small stealthy tactical aircrlifter for special forces. But a stealthy cargo plane to replace the C-17? This is so many levels of stupid, I really have to wonder if the people at the Pentagon really have a clue with regard to actual mission requirements versus what what they want. As Yasotay said, they don't need LO for 95% of the mission requirements and, on top of that, making it an LO vehicle will greatly reduce its readiness rate contrary to all of the meandering factless protestations of "LO for everything" proponents and their delusions of easily maintainable stealth tech.
 
Mark S. said:
Couple of items:

The C-17 can carry three (3) times the weight into the same length strip as a C-130.

After the OIF deep strike mission in which the AH-64 force was mauled the Army lost enthusiasim in vertical lift operations in contested areas.

The Army's Future Combat System, FCS, has also lost favor. Seems that the wheeled vehicles envisioned did not offer enough armor protection to make them survivable on the battlefield. Also it appears that it was this program that drove the Army's desire for aircraft such as the quad tiltrotor.

If you can determine the allowable soil bearing pressure you can design any system around it. Typically as others have mentioned the heavier the aircraft the less times it can land on a given surface.

If you could find a quick way to drop 8 light/utility poles you have plenty of 1500+ foot spaces with acceptable bearing capacity on the highways of the world.
A C-17 carrying three times what a C-130 carries into the same landing area is going to have to decelerate with a lot more force (three times as much??) going into the surface. If you only have to do that once, okay. Now if you have to do that twenty or thirty times in short order, you get the problem that was demonstrated in Northern Iraq in the opening phase of Op Iraqi Freedom. The landing C-17's destroyed the airfield. Or at Kandahar where they had to land airfield repair equipment in competition with combat forces.

In combat "mass" is one of the core tenants. To build mass rapidly is the expectation of ground commanders. Conversely the tenant to counter-attack as fast as possible before an enemy can consolidate and secure an objective also plays into the criticality of rapidly massing. Unless of course you can get your enemy to agree to a "time out" while you get all of your forces ready for a fight. So why bring this up? How many C-17, each carrying two combat vehicles, can land at the same time on a 10,000 foot runway with a MOG of 1? How many VTOL carrying one vehicle requiring a 500 foot space can you land on the same space? So I can have 2 vehicles ready for combat after landing or 20. Then there is the fact that the C-17 has to back taxi and take off before the next C-17 can land so that adds time to the evolution. With VTOL, they land, off load, take off without any taxi required so I can repeat the evolution for the VTOL with much better rapidity. Then if the C-17 breaks on the runway -game over. If a VTOL breaks on the runway you loose one (maybe three) landing points. This has been demonstrated at least twice in Afghanistan where broken C-17 clogged the runway at Bagram closing the airfield to fixed wing operations until cleared after a herculean effort that took ~24 hours. VTOL operations continued unabated.

Actually the Army is now even more insistent on being able to deploy expeditionary forces to other than airfield and seaports. Indeed reading many of the stories about recent war games that the Army have done, they are adamant about the requirement to operate from non-standard unprepared staging points.

The debacle you mention of the 11Regt. deep attack is taken out of context. The debacle was more a demonstration of bad command decisions than concept. Indeed several days later the 101st Division repeated the same sort of effort with good results and no shot up aircraft. Indeed the desire to attack large formations went away, because the large formations have disappeared for the time being. Fighting insurgents for a decade tends to change your focus. However operating at depth of the battlefield via vertical maneuver has increased. The U.S. Army alone averaged around 300 air assault operations a year collectively in Iraq and Afghanistan; contested areas to be sure. Unless I am mistaken, the requirements for the future JMR/FVL rotorcraft at least doubles the radius they expect it to operate over. Then there are all of the recent demonstrations of the USMC with MV-22 (Philippines, deploy from Europe all over Africa, 1100 mile raid demonstration from California to Texas) that show vertical maneuver is even more relevant.

But lets talk contested, really contested (i.e. IADS). Where are most of the integrated air defense systems? Around critical infra-structure and command nodes? Where are most airports? Near major urban centers where the command nodes are? Are you going to fly even stealthy airlifters into that? Where are big open flat areas, like farms or pastures? Or as you mention road networks. But one would hope that by the mid-21st Century stealth is created by inducing error into the radar to ignore the flying things.
 
"DoD: U.S. Needs Stealthy Airlifter"
Mar. 8, 2010 - 03:45AM |
By JOHN T. BENNETT

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20100308/DEFFEAT04/3080312/DoD-U-S-Needs-Stealthy-Airlifter

By the 2020s, U.S. special-forces troops will need a stealthy new airlifter to sneak past ever-improving radar and missile systems into "denied areas," says the Pentagon's top civilian special operations official.

"At some point, serious consideration will need to be given to the development and fielding of a more survivable, long-range SOF [special operations forces] air mobility platform that exploits advances in signature reduction and electronic attack," Michael Vickers, assistant U.S. defense secretary for special operations, low-intensity conflict and interdependent capabilities, said during a March 4 interview at the Pentagon. "We don't have to decide today" what to buy, but the 2014 Quadrennial Defense Review probably "will have to look at this pretty hard."

Currently, U.S. special operators use a mix of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft, like modified C-130 transports, to move by air.

While it's too early to determine what a new stealth transporter might look like or how much it would cost, Vickers said "it will be expensive" and look less like a modified C-130 and more like a traditional stealth aircraft. He also said the need for range would force it to operate from land bases, not ships.

The Pentagon flies stealthy F-22 fighters and B-2 bombers, but the development of a radar-avoiding airlifter could require a radically different design.

"This is a tough one," said Ronald Epstein, an analyst at Banc of America Securities-Merrill Lynch. "You have to carry a lot of weight."

The most likely choice, Epstein said, is a blended-wing aircraft. A NASA fact sheet shows a concept for a blended-wing airliner that resembles a flying wing with a thick airfoil-shaped fuselage section.

But Epstein said a flying wing design "wouldn't give you the volume you need, especially to get all the gear in with them."

Another option might be a swing wing that would look like a B-2 bomber in flight, and then could "swing to look more like a C-130 for the insertion part," Epstein said.

Several Pentagon veterans and defense analysts said they agree about the need for a stealthy insertion plane in an era of improving air defenses.

"The issue for the SOF community, however, has been, and remains, cost," said Barry Watts, a former director of the Pentagon's Program Evaluation and Analysis directorate who now is an analyst at Washington's Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. "I am skeptical that the SOF community will find the funding to procure the kind of insertion platform they need."

But Pentagon leaders appear determined to stay ahead of potential adversaries who are improving their ability to keep U.S. forces at bay.

Just weeks ago, the 2010 QDR declared weapons and vehicles that can break through or outmaneuver anti-access systems are "funda-mental to the nation's ability to protect its interests and to provide security in key regions."

The drive to create this arsenal will reshape DoD spending discussions, said Peter Huessy, a defense and national security consultant.

"I think the major debate within the defense budget over the next five years will come in" the anti-access realm, Huessy said.

For the next few years, U.S. special operations forces will use their modified C-130s and helicopters to go where their secret missions send them. But a decade hence, defenses will be much more able to lock onto the planes' radar, infrared, and acoustic signatures.

"The air defense environments are becoming so threatening, particularly because of these advanced, double-digit [surface-to-air missiles], that it's driving our air forces - Navy and Air Force - to signature reduction and electronic attack to penetrate those defenses," Vickers said. "So, at some point, if I ... also want to insert SOF in, or if I can only put in a B-2 or its successor, then I'm kidding myself if I think a clever C-130 is going to get in there with terrain-following radar."

Watts concurred. "Mike's right: An upgraded C-130 isn't going to get the job done in the face of double-digit SAMs."

Vickers said the new aircraft will not likely resemble today's MC-130s. "If you want the signature reduction, it would have to look more like stealth aircraft," he said.

Not all things will be possible. For instance, he said, "you would make tradeoffs between payload and a number of things to maximize the survivability aspects of the aircraft. You may not get the short takeoff or landing on hard strips that we would like to see."

Vickers said the Pentagon might also decide to buy a variety of aircraft to meet SOF needs. A long-range, stealthy insertion airplane would not be needed "everywhere in the world, so you might have a high-low mix," he said. "But if I say, 'I want to put them into this area where only the leading edge of air power is going,' I would need corresponding technology."

"Not every contingency by any stretch will require these capabilities; just [a] small set," he said. "But when you need it, you need it."

Purpose-Built Airlifter?

Today's special-forces airlifters are generally upgraded versions of military airlifters, but "the idea of taking a transport aircraft that moves GPFs [general-purpose forces] around and then modifying that may be coming to an end," Vickers said.

Nevertheless, he said his special operations/low-intensity shop would closely follow relevant technology work elsewhere in DoD.

"A SOF program would probably follow on larger efforts in this realm, taking advantage of work the services have done elsewhere so it might not take us as long as [it] takes them," Vickers said.

Still, such a development effort is "typically, a decade or so of effort," he said.

U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command has been studying possible stealthy airlifters for years as part of its M-X program. And several major U.S. defense firms from time to time have floated conceptual solutions.

Vickers added that the next-generation SOF airlifter will likely fly from ground bases, not ships, because of the ranges involved.

"These [enemy] capabilities and the variety of them can push you out further, and threaten your close-in bases. And then when you try to penetrate, they've got all these defenses that make life tough for you there," he said. "Depending on their geographic depth and where the target is, you compound your problem in that you've got to go a long way. That range problem ... generally drives you to land-based."

Still, he said, for missions like taking out "coastal targets, then a sea-based capability might make sense."

Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute, said big-ticket acquisition programs could make SOF less attractive to Washington. "Political appointees have been enamored with SOF throughout this decade," he said, but "once SOF starts demanding big money for items like stealthy insertion aircraft, its appeal will wane."

What's more, Thompson said, as acquisition program costs grow, so does congressional poking around for details on how federal funds are being spent.

"As the budgetary footprint of SOF grows," he said, "legislators will want to know more, and that could lead to controversy about the role of such capabilities in our overall defense posture.
 
The last three paragraphs are telling.
A stealthy aircraft that has the volume of a C-130, but cost as much as, or more than a C-17 will be an interesting sale.

I still contend that in the coming years traditional stealth will become less feasible. Cyber-induced stealth, perhaps emplaced by techno-SOF, will be the order of the day. Then you can fly dirigibles into enemy airspace if need be.
 
yasotay said:
Having air supremacy does not make an airfield secure at all. Given that most airports are within urban environments, the concrete and electronic jungle is the perfect place to hide MANPADS, heavy sniper rifles, medium and heavy caliber machine guns, mortars, ATGM and artillery. The problem is so bad the US military has coined a term Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2AD) that is a cornerstone of their future concepts. Then there are the asymmetric challenges: massed laser pointers, groups of cell phone flown quad-copter UAS, fireworks, etc. Navies have the same challenges with ports.

While it seems that Air Mobility Command (AMC) and their advisers are fixated on the air defense system threat of double-digit surface-to-air-missiles (SAM) requiring signature reduction in a future airlifter. Hence, the United States Air Force is looking at a LO jet-powered transport that can take off in 1,500 feet, cruise at .80 Mach, and carry a 40-ton payload. Essentially a stealth version of the Airbus Military A400M Atlas. Not sure how they intend to airlift the GCV Infantry Fighting Vehicle with a weight between 64 to 84 tons.

Unless they are trying to have Air Mobility Command underwrite the cost of development of M-X for SOCOM by having this stealth airlifter replace their current fleet of C-130s? We will probably see this airframe also adapted as a gunship and tanker in addition to being an airlifter.

yasotay said:
Ultimately, is it really worth the very large cost to design and build a stealthy airlifter when something like > 95% of the missions the aircraft will perform do not require it? Given Moore's Law and the big changes in radar technology is it worth the expense for something that may not be stealthy when it reaches operations?

Don't let the F-35 Mafia here on Secret Projects see your comments on stealth. ;) They seem to think that stealth aircraft will continue to be low-observable for some time and we don't need to worry about improvements in computer technology or radars.
 
Triton said:
yasotay said:
Having air supremacy does not make an airfield secure at all. Given that most airports are within urban environments, the concrete and electronic jungle is the perfect place to hide MANPADS, heavy sniper rifles, medium and heavy caliber machine guns, mortars, ATGM and artillery. The problem is so bad the US military has coined a term Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2AD) that is a cornerstone of their future concepts. Then there are the asymmetric challenges: massed laser pointers, groups of cell phone flown quad-copter UAS, fireworks, etc. Navies have the same challenges with ports.

While it seems that Air Mobility Command (AMC) and their advisers are fixated on the air defense system threat of double-digit surface-to-air-missiles (SAM) requiring signature reduction in a future airlifter. Hence, the United States Air Force is looking at a LO jet-powered transport that can take off in 1,500 feet, cruise at .80 Mach, and carry a 40-ton payload. Essentially a stealth version of the Airbus Military A400M Atlas. Not sure how they intend to airlift the GCV Infantry Fighting Vehicle with a weight between 64 to 84 tons.

Unless they are trying to have Air Mobility Command underwrite the cost of development of M-X for SOCOM by having this stealth airlifter replace their current fleet of C-130s? We will probably see this airframe also adapted as a gunship and tanker in addition to being an airlifter.

yasotay said:
Ultimately, is it really worth the very large cost to design and build a stealthy airlifter when something like > 95% of the missions the aircraft will perform do not require it? Given Moore's Law and the big changes in radar technology is it worth the expense for something that may not be stealthy when it reaches operations?

Don't let the F-35 Mafia here on Secret Projects see your comments on stealth. ;) They seem to think that stealth aircraft will continue to be low-observable for some time and we don't need to worry about improvements in computer technology or radars.
Or watch out for the 'anti-F-35 Mafia' who put words into other mouths or you can show where the EXACT phrase 'we don't need to worry about improvements......' can be found.

Also, how does a LESS stealthy Gen 4 or 4.5 aircraft survive these 'improvements'?
 
bobbymike said:
Also, how does a LESS stealthy Gen 4 or 4.5 aircraft survive these 'improvements'?

Shhhhh. <stage whisper> They don't have an answer for that one.
 
bobbymike said:
Or watch out for the 'anti-F-35 Mafia' who put words into other mouths or you can show where the EXACT phrase 'we don't need to worry about improvements......' can be found.

So you are saying that the F-22 and the F-35 will be detectable during their operational lifetimes due to improvements in microprocessors and radar technology? I thought that we were expecting a good twenty to thirty years of low observability by investing in the F-22 and the F-35 to justify their expense?

bobbymike said:
Also, how does a LESS stealthy Gen 4 or 4.5 aircraft survive these 'improvements'?

If "fifth-generation" aircraft are detectable through Moore's Law and radar improvements then they are no different than generation 4 or generation 4.5 aircraft, are they?
 
Triton said:
bobbymike said:
Or watch out for the 'anti-F-35 Mafia' who put words into other mouths or you can show where the EXACT phrase 'we don't need to worry about improvements......' can be found.

So you are saying that the F-22 and the F-35 will be detectable during their operational lifetimes due to improvements in microprocessors and radar technology? I thought that we were expecting a good twenty to thirty years of low observability by investing in the F-22 and the F-35 to justify their expense?

bobbymike said:
Also, how does a LESS stealthy Gen 4 or 4.5 aircraft survive these 'improvements'?

If "fifth-generation" aircraft are detectable through Moore's Law and radar improvements then they are no different than generation 4 or generation 4.5 aircraft, are they?

I think that's what 'Low Observable' not NO Observable means. Again you fail to answer how it would be better to be detected earlier with Gen 4 then with stealthy platforms OR is it your contention that advances in radar and computing power will give NO advantage to stealth?

Also stealth gives us ADVANTAGE now that Gen 4 doesn't. With only Gen 4 you are GUARANTEEING detection at least with stealth there has to be significant technological advances during which time we have air supremacy.

I pre-apologize for F-35 injection see you over at the no holds barred thread.
 
bobbymike said:
Also stealth gives us ADVANTAGE now that Gen 4 doesn't. With only Gen 4 you are GUARANTEEING detection at least with stealth there has to be significant technological advances during which time we have air supremacy.

I pre-apologize for F-35 injection see you over at the no holds barred thread.

Stealth aircraft are still detectable. It's a matter of distance.
The B-2 and F-117 designs are quite old, but still very viable. Maxwell's equations win over Moore's law.

The idea of a stealthy airlifter makes some degree of sense for SOF, but not for conventional airlift. SOF missions may require deep penetration of non permissive airspace. Non-SOF airlift, not so much. Unfortunately it's unlikely that SOCOM and JSOC would get the funding required to create a stealthy SOF-specific airlift capability.
 
quellish said:
Stealth aircraft are still detectable. It's a matter of distance.
The B-2 and F-117 designs are quite old, but still very viable. Maxwell's equations win over Moore's law.

The idea of a stealthy airlifter makes some degree of sense for SOF, but not for conventional airlift. SOF missions may require deep penetration of non permissive airspace. Non-SOF airlift, not so much. Unfortunately it's unlikely that SOCOM and JSOC would get the funding required to create a stealthy SOF-specific airlift capability.

Which is why I become confused when articles are written about Speed Agile, or these other transport projects, as a replacement for the C-130 or read the comments of General Paul Silva. It appears that the United States Air Force wants stealth airlifters to replace their entire fleet of C-130 and C-17 transports, tankers, and gunships. Or am I misinterpreting these articles and comments?
 
What does the United States Army think of the Boeing Joint Common Air Lift System (JCALS) tiltrotor? Would a 36-ton payload fit their needs?

"US Joint Heavy Lift"
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2765.msg125432.html#msg125432
 
JCALS was designed done at the behest of the Army to see if it was feasible to have a common airframe. 36 tons was the Army weight requirement. I do not think they are planning for that high a weight any more.
 
Is Joint Future Theater Lift (JFTL) an ongoing program between the United States Army and the United States Air Force? Or have the Army and Air Force parted ways and the Army has placed their requirements into FVL/JMR-Ultra? Sorry, I just can't keep up with all the acronyms.
 
Triton said:
Is Joint Future Theater Lift (JFTL) an ongoing program between the United States Army and the United States Air Force? Or have the Army and Air Force parted ways and the Army has placed their requirements into FVL/JMR-Ultra? Sorry, I just can't keep up with all the acronyms.
JFTL is dead. FVL-Ultra is still a requirement for U.S. Army in the form of the approved requirements documents. That document is the JFTL requirements document.

That clears it up doesn't it?
 
yasotay said:
JFTL is dead. FVL-Ultra is still a requirement for U.S. Army in the form of the approved requirements documents. That document is the JFTL requirements document.

That clears it up doesn't it?

Yes, it clears up some of the confusion. Did the Army Aviation Branch intend to also operate the aircraft chosen for JFTL? Or was it joint in the sense that the Army was going to help the Air Force pay for the aircraft that Air Mobility Command was going to operate? Has the Air Force replaced JFTL with another program concerning next-generation airlift? Will Speed Agile be rolled into another program?
 
Neither a STOVL/VTOL nor a stealth solution to heavy airlift (>20 t) appears to be more than marginally feasible, let alone practical and affordable, with technology we can envisage today.


Hence my strong belief that the Army people who want giant tilt-rotors and the USAF people who want tank-carrying STOVL B-2s are all moles employed by Airbus.
 
LO is likely correct and the ending of the C-17 line is also troubling.. These trends will likely soon reflect a multiplicative decline in the US's ability to project influence.
 
jsport said:
LO is likely correct and the ending of the C-17 line is also troubling.. These trends will likely soon reflect a multiplicative decline in the US's ability to project influence.

This kind of thing (lines shutting down with no orders) is happening all over the place (except China of course). Not sure there is a viable solution in today's fiscal climate.
 
A chinook flew over at about 1000 AGL and 1 km from my home yesterday. It was quite loud and with my experience in working with civilian CH-54's the more you load the rotor the louder it gets. Think a heavy lift tiltrotor will never have a degree of stealth due to the noise generated. A jet on the other hand except on take-off generates less noise at the lower frequencies than a rotor. The higher frequency sound doesn't carry as far either. My choice would be for a jet for any SOF aircraft.
 
JFTL was always to be a USAF program. The USAF argued it was their mission. As to VTOL above 20 ton there was much work done by all of the prime vendors who said it was feasible. Cost was indeed a factor but not more than a LO aircraft I am told. One of the benefits of tilt riotor is that the noise does not propogate like a helicopter until it is in helicopter mode. The landing flexibility of VTOL over CTOL was tremendous.

For example let's look at a.place like South Sudan. There are two airfields that are C-17 capable. Five C-130 capable. There is only about 100km of paved road. South Sudan is the size of Texas. There are literally millions of 500 ft. Landing zones.
 
LowObservable said:
Neither a STOVL/VTOL nor a stealth solution to heavy airlift (>20 t) appears to be more than marginally feasible, let alone practical and affordable, with technology we can envisage today.


Hence my strong belief that the Army people who want giant tilt-rotors and the USAF people who want tank-carrying STOVL B-2s are all moles employed by Airbus.

Lockheed had their chance to share in the Airbus A400M, but they pulled out of the Future International Military Airlifter (FIMA) consortium in 1989. While they were developing the C-130J Super Hercules, I guess they were expecting the Air Force to fund the development of a new airlifter in the future that was between the C-130 and the C-17 in capability for AMC. This new airlifter was probably expected to compete against the new airlifter created by the Euroflag consortium. Plus, Northrop Grumman ended its alliance with EADS in March 2010.

I'm not going to be too upset when the Air Force is forced to buy the A400M Atlas. Airbus Military North America has its headquarters in Mobile, Alabama and an assembly line to build the aircraft in the United States.
 
yasotay said:
JFTL was always to be a USAF program. The USAF argued it was their mission. As to VTOL above 20 ton there was much work done by all of the prime vendors who said it was feasible. Cost was indeed a factor but not more than a LO aircraft I am told. One of the benefits of tilt riotor is that the noise does not propogate like a helicopter until it is in helicopter mode. The landing flexibility of VTOL over CTOL was tremendous.

For example let's look at a.place like South Sudan. There are two airfields that are C-17 capable. Five C-130 capable. There is only about 100km of paved road. South Sudan is the size of Texas. There are literally millions of 500 ft. Landing zones.

Thank you for the information, yasotay. VTOL certainly provides greater landing flexibility when there is little airport or road infrastructure in country.
 
Rather take it right now from 1986 and go for Speed Agile, eh.
Just need to sharpen nose edges though.
 

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this is another piece from Overscan's discovered 1988 AGARD paper
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a192214.pdf
 
Boeing distributed propulsion RCEE concept via the same source
 

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flateric said:
Boeing distributed propulsion RCEE concept via the same source


Great find my dear Flateric,,there is old NASA concept looks like it.
 
The Boeing design looks like it could be made from a C-17 fuselage with new wings, as opposed to the Lockheed proposal which would be all new.
 
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