FrankenSAM Project

[Archibald]

A detailed analysis of how Ukrainian Air Force could have shot down the Russian A-50 AEW&C aircraft over the Azov Sea

A detailed analysis of how Ukrainian Air Force could have shot down the Russian A-50 AEW&C aircraft over the Azov Sea

theaviationgeekclub.com

Do you think this scenario makes sense ? (SAMs are not my area of expertise, TBH)

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

It may also be possible that the A-50 was downed by using a modified version of Patriot or S-300 then. I remember seeing a tweet which supposedly quoted a high ranking Ukrainian Airforce official who said that "locally made technology" was "responsible for the downing". What that's supposed to mean is anyone's guess and I have not seen any evidence to confirm or deny these claims; the Ukrainians remain tight lipped and the Russians don't really wish to comment it seems.

Except that PAC-2 does not have an active seeker. It's semi-active with TVM, so the Patriot battery radar HAS to go active in the endgame or the missile can't guide. And it probably has to send periodic updates or the missile is going to be dumb. But if Patriot is only using the comms built into the radar and not an actual tracking signal until late, it potentially doesn't look like a Patriot engagement on ESM until it's too late to do anything about it.

I wonder whether it's possible that the Ukrainians could have fired a Patriot in the general direction of the A-50 before illuminating it in the final phase of its flight and getting it near enough to destroy it. It's a long shot, but theoretically it seems possible. Whether it could be done in practice is entirely different altogether.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I also find it rather interesting that we have yet to see any of these FrankenSAMs made public, as it seems that their usage is going to become a lot more common as Soviet missile stocks in Ukraine dwindle. It's interesting that we are yet to see any Kubs rolling around with Sparrows or trucks with modified Sidewinder launchers.

 

[TomS]

I also find it rather interesting that we have yet to see any of these FrankenSAMs made public, as it seems that their usage is going to become a lot more common as Soviet missile stocks in Ukraine dwindle. It's interesting that we are yet to see any Kubs rolling around with Sparrows or trucks with modified Sidewinder launchers.

Ukraine has excellent OPSEC when it comes to this sort of equipment. Possibly aided by this gear not being as widespread as they would like the Russians to think.

 

[Firefinder]

Needs to be noted that the Patriot does have the ability to fire a missile preloaded with guidence data much like the Aegis does.

Even for the TVM mode it does not need to guided it the entire way. It does not need constant guidance updates.

Just the terminals approach.

So if tge Russian pulled what the USAF did in the 90s with flying in a regular course?

Fire the missile, wait a moment for it, and just flash the planes once you think its in the basket.

All the matter of timing it probably.

And its simple US high school math.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Needs to be noted that the Patriot does have the ability to fire a missile preloaded with guidence data much like the Aegis does.

Even for the TVM mode it does not need to guided it the entire way. It does not need constant guidance updates.

Just the terminals approach.

So if tge Russian pulled what the USAF did in the 90s with flying in a regular course?

Fire the missile, wait a moment for it, and just flash the planes once you think its in the basket.

All the matter of timing it probably.

And its simple US high school math.

Hell, it's probably a built in fire mode on the Patriots already, just not one with a lot of use normally.

 

[NMaude]

I just stumbled across this YT video showing daylight footage of the ground-launched ASRAAM in Ukraine:

Earlier this week, 8 February, the first clear footage of the UK developed and supplied AIM-132 ASRAAM-based air defence system appeared. In this video we take a look at the system and the available evidence of its use.

Be sure to check out our accompanying article for this video here - https://armourersbench.com/2024/02/09...

 

[timmymagic]

Cross posted to the Asraam/CAMM thread.

Can't link it here. But unfortunately one of the UK supplied HMT/Asraam Frankensam systems has been hit and destroyed in Donetsk by a Russian Lancet. Definitely not a dummy system either. System was parked up with a damaged tyre and, given the time delay between detection and lancet strike (position of sun and shadows in the video) is likely to not have been manned at the time.

 

[timmymagic]

Another Frankensam lost...including our first look at a Ukrainian Buk with RIM-7 mounted. Lost to a Lancet strike.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1788981117053202772

View: https://twitter.com/StettingerN/status/1788981117053202772

 

[NMaude]

Another Frankensam lost...including our first look at a Ukrainian Buk with RIM-7 mounted. Lost to a Lancet strike.

A pity however I do believe that the Ukrainian army has plenty of SA-11 TELs to be modified into firing RIM-7s also something really needs to be done about shooting down these Lancet drones.

Talking about Ukrainian FrankenSAMs here's this interesting Defense Updates video about a Magura sea-drone being modified to carry an AA-11 Archer AAM as a SAM:

New footage published by Russian state news agency Tass suggests that Ukraine's military has adapted its naval drones to carry air-to-air missiles.

Tass and Russia's Defense Ministry released footage on May 6 showing a Russian Ka-29 helicopter firing at a Ukrainian Magura V5 naval drone that seemed to be armed with R-73. The incident took place in the Black Sea.

A video taken from the Ka-29 reveals a single R-73 on one of two angled rails mounted on the rear of the USV (Unmanned Surface Vessel), potentially indicating that the other weapon has already been fired.

The USV tried to escape with some hard maneuvers but was eventually destroyed by gunfire from Ka-29.

Viewers may note that Ukraine has used its Magura V5 on multiple occasions to target Russia's Black Sea Fleet.

In this video, Defense Updates reports on R-73 missile integration to Magura V5 USV

.#defenseupdates #ukrainevsrussia #ukrainerussiawar

Chapters:

00:11 INTRODUCTION

02:06 THE GLIMPSE

03:30 MAGURA V5

05:30 R-73 AAM

06:58 ANALYSIS

 

[timmymagic]

It's worth noting that a Russian MI-24 on anti-USV patrol off Crimea was lost in recent weeks in unclear circumstances. There is speculation that it may have fallen foul to a FrankenSAM USV...

 

[Scott Kenny]

Cross posted to the Asraam/CAMM thread.

Can't link it here. But unfortunately one of the UK supplied HMT/Asraam Frankensam systems has been hit and destroyed in Donetsk by a Russian Lancet. Definitely not a dummy system either. System was parked up with a damaged tyre and, given the time delay between detection and lancet strike (position of sun and shadows in the video) is likely to not have been manned at the time.

The only irreplaceable part of that package is the FLIR box, so hopefully that's not broken beyond repair.

 

[timmymagic]

The only irreplaceable part of that package is the FLIR box, so hopefully that's not broken beyond repair.

Actually there are a few spare from the Talisman programme. It's likely the HMT600 is the rarest item as there were only 6 built for Soothsayer.Mind you Supacat are still building variants so they couldsource new. But realistically its probably not worth it. There are only so many Asraam Block V and earlier going spare (unless Australia chuck their stockpile over the fence) and a decent number have been fired. The remaining Supacat Asraam Frankensam's just have slightly more missiles per launcher now.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Actually there are a few spare from the Talisman programme. It's likely the HMT600 is the rarest item as there were only 6 built for Soothsayer.Mind you Supacat are still building variants so they couldsource new. But realistically its probably not worth it. There are only so many Asraam Block V and earlier going spare (unless Australia chuck their stockpile over the fence) and a decent number have been fired. The remaining Supacat Asraam Frankensam's just have slightly more missiles per launcher now.

I was more thinking that it didn't have to be mounted on a Supacat specifically, it's just that the UK had those spare/surplus. The FrankenSAM launchers could be mounted on pretty much any tracked vehicle, truck, or even a trailer; though an off-road truck like the Supacat is one of the best options.

 

[timmymagic]

I was more thinking that it didn't have to be mounted on a Supacat specifically, it's just that the UK had those spare/surplus. The FrankenSAM launchers could be mounted on pretty much any tracked vehicle, truck, or even a trailer; though an off-road truck like the Supacat is one of the best options.

Absolutely, it would probably be as easy to add it to a MAN HX or any other truck.

 

[publiusr]

With drones and Starlink, I'd think a FrankenSAM would not have to have as much added.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Not sure if this falls under the FrankenSAM program, but the Ukrainians recently mounted R-73s on their SA-8 Geckos

https://twitter.com/x/status/1791837511976714284

View: https://vxtwitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1791837511976714284

 

[NMaude]

Not sure if this falls under the FrankenSAM program, but the Ukrainians recently mounted R-73s on their SA-8 Geckos

https://twitter.com/x/status/1791837511976714284

View: https://vxtwitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1791837511976714284

The Ukrainians have also recently been mounting launch-rails on some of their Magura sea-drones to fire the AA-11 Archer AAMs, also I understand something similar has been done with surplus AA-8 Aphids.