• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

FLIGHTS OF FANTASY: What if the P.1216 went into production?

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
From Whatifmodelers forum

One of the RAF's most storied combat units, No. 1 Squadron has a history that goes back to 1912 and adds to its historical feats the first operational combat unit to fly a VSTOL fighter with the introduction of the Harrier GR.1 in 1969. After then operating the upgraded GR.3, in 1988 No. 1 Sqn transitioned the Harrier GR.5, essentially a British variant of the AV-8B Harrier II used by the US Marine Corps. Supposing the P.1216 enters service at this time, No. 1 Squadron would have been an obvious operator and would have transitioned to the P.1216 from the Harrier GR.3 and this illustration reflects that time.

I've taken a few artistic licenses here and there that result in this illustration deviating in the details from what the P.1216 might have actually looked like, but the essential elements are there. This version wears the dark sea gray/dark green wraparound camoflauge used by Harrier units of the day as well as the distinctive No.1 Sqn badge on the tail. AIM-9 Sidewinders are on the wingtip stations for self-defense, an external tank hangs below each wing boom and a total of six BL.755 cluster bombs are on the weapon pylons. Note also the Mauser 27mm cannon in the front of the wing booms.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
No. 3 Squdron as an RAF Germany unit converted to the Harrier GR.1 in 1972 and would convert to the GR.5 in 1989. This illustration has the P.1216 in the colors of No. 3 Sqn circa 1987 with the green/yellow squadron flash on the side of the wing boom. This aircraft is fitted out for the DCA mission (defensive counter air), with an external tank below each wing boom, four AIM-9 Sidewinders and a medium range Sky Flash missile under each wing (the Sky Flash being a British variant of the AIM-7 Sparrow). During the waning days of the Cold War, P.1216s might have flown with this weapons load in the quick reaction alert to fly against Soviet/East German attack aircraft targeting the RAF's airfields in Germany.

Given that the P.1216 would have been radar-equipped (though there were some design variants with a radarless nose), it might have been able to operated BVR missiles like the Sky Flash, something current RAF Harriers can't do.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
Last one for now, this is a P.1216 in the distinctive markings of No. IV Squadron. No. IV converted to the Harrier GR.1 in 1970. The flamboyant tail markings are taken from the squadron badge of No. IV Sqn and this aircraft is fitted out for the anti-radar role, with Sidewinders on the wingtip stations, an ALQ-101 ECM pod under the left wing, and the AJ37 Martel anti-radiation missile under each wing boom.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
As the RAF Harrier squadrons transitioned to the GR.5 through the latter half of the 1980s, a new camoflauge scheme was introduced on the GR.5s which consisted of NATO Dark Green upper surfaces and Lichen Green undersurfaces. The above illustration depicts a P.1216 in that color scheme with the squadron markings of No. 1 Sqn.

Loadout is for a long-range ferry flight- wingtip-mounted Sidewinder missiles with four external fuel tanks- one under each wing and one under each wing boom.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
Here's another one- during the waning days of the Cold War, the RAF would deploy Harriers and Jaguars to Norway for winter exercises and the aircraft got temporary winter camoflauge applied over the base camoflauge- in this case, I've depicted a P.1216 in the markings of No. 3 Sqn in this temporary winter scheme applied over the standard NATO Dark Green/Lichen Green colors.

Weapons loadout consists of an external tank under each outer wing, wingtip Sidewinder missiles for self-defense, and a relatively heavy load of eight BL.755 cluster bombs.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
Given the performance leap of the P.1216 over the Harrier and even the Harrier II, it's not unreasonable to think of the P.1216 as also filling in the roles undertaken by the RAF Jaguar fleet and that's what got me thinking of some P.1216s in the Desert Sand scheme used by RAF attack aircraft during Operation Desert Storm.

The below illustration is a No. IV Squadron machine but without the flamboyant tail markings (a more subdued tail flash instead). Weapons loadout consists of Sidewinder missiles on the wingtip stations, external tank under each wing, and a total of six BL.755 cluster bombs.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
In the technical documentation of Hawker's work on the P.1216, it was planned that the RAF would operated a sensor nose variant as opposed to a radar nose variant. This illustration reflects what that version might have looked like at the time of Operation Desert Storm- the nose section is broadly similiar to that used on RAF Jaguars with a chisel tip nose window housing the laser/target seeker but with a raised fairing on the dorsal side for a night vision system similar to what's used on the Harrier GR.5/7s as well as the AV-8Bs.

Perhaps RAF squadrons would have a mix of both radar nose versions and sensor nose versions (though that wasn't the plan from actual history). This machine wears the markings of the now-disbanded No. 54 Squadron which ended its days as Jaguar operator. Loadout on this aircraft has a TIALD (thermal imaging airborne laser designator) pod under the fuselage and 2000 lb Paveway II laser guided bombs under each boom as well as the customary external tanks and wingtip Sidewinder AAMs.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
Both aircraft are in the dark sea gray camouflage scheme used on the Fleet Air Arm's Sea Harriers from the late 1980s into the early 1990s until the arrival of the Sea Harrier FA.2. The first one is in the markings of 899 NAS which was responsible for most of the training of Harrier pilots (and naturally would have been responsible as the fleet replenishment group for the Hawker P.1216) and the second one is in the embarked markings of 801 NAS with its characteristic winged trident and checkerboard rudder. The "R" on the tail fin signifies its assignment to the HMS Ark Royal.

If you compare this naval version with the RAF versions I've posted thus far, you'll notice that there are two main design differences between the two- the first one is the much enlarged wing booms that house extra fuel tanks forward of the wing- this would have saved the RN/FAA from having to devote a hard point to an external fuel tank. Because of the presence of this enlarged front section, there's no place for the 27mm Mauser cannon as used on the RAF machines. From the technical documentation of the day when BAe/Hawker put in considerable time/effort into this design, the idea was that a 25mm Aden cannon would be fitted to the port side LERX just aft of the cockpit (similarly to the 20mm Vulcan installation on the F-16). Unlike the twin cannon armed RAF versions, the naval version would have only had the single Aden cannon in this location. The change to a single Aden cannon would have been one of the design features of the naval version of the P.1216.

Technically the naval P.1216 was designed with the AIM-120 AAMRAM in mind, but as this missile didn't enter RN/FAA service until the introduction of the Sea Harrier FA.2, I depicted these early 90s machines as fitted out with the BAe Sky Flash semi-active missiles as an interim measure until the AAMRAM reached operational status with the British.

More to come, stay tuned!
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
Just a personal comment: wow!

I didn't like the P.1216 until I saw these profiles. Great work. I wish you could do a few profiles for US Secret Projects: Jet Fighters, its quite different seeing a design in realistic colours than a manufacturer model or drawing.
 

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
I do have some US designs I'm working right now- got any particular US fighter design you're partial to?
 

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
1,157
Well, maybe Scott might want a profile or two for his bomber book?

I'd like to see the other FX contenders (Rockwell, Fairchild) and VFAX contenders like the wierd McDD design with canards.
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,371
Reaction score
50
My vote is for Boeing intercontinental bomber designs contemporary to B-36 ;D
 

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
In the mid-1990s, the RAF's Harrier and Jaguar force received an all-over pale gray temporary camoflauge scheme based on an alkali-removalble temporary finish (ARTF) which figured promininently in Harrier and Jaguars used in the Balkans during Operation Deliberate Force in 1995. This set of illustrations takes a look at what Hawker P.1216s might have looked like had they participated in the strike missions against Bosnian Serb targets during the NATO air campaign:



^Using the same No. 54 Squadron markings as one of the Gulf War machines in a previous posting, this illustration depicts a radar-nosed P.1216 in the ARTF scheme. Weapons loadout includes AIM-9 Sidewinders on the wingtip stations, an external fuel tank on the outer wing pylons (no doubt these aircraft would have flown patrols over Bosnia and the added fuel tankage would have been most welcome) and two BAe ALARM anti-radar missiles under each wing boom. These would have been used to knock out Bosnian Serb SAM site guidance radars during Deliberate Force.



^This is the sensor nose version of the P.1216 and I've revised the nose sensor configuration based on some better information provided to me on the P.1216 project. The nose section now looks more like that of the RAF's GR.7s/USMC AV-8Bs rather than my first version in the Gulf War vignette above from which I drew inspiration from the nose section of the Jaguar. This revision is more realistic as to what might have entered service with the RAF.

Markings are for No. IV Squadron (yes, it was referred to as "IV" instead of "4") and the weapons loadout includes AIM-9 Sidewinders on the wingtips for self-defense, an external tank under each outer wing, two AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missiles under each wing boom and a 1000 lb iron bomb centerline for targets of opportunity.
 

Attachments

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
Now that the summer's over, I've gotten more time to work on s'more illustrations:


^In a previous post above I'd alluded to what the P.1216 might have looked like had it been procured by the US Marine Corps instead of the AV-8B Harrier II (assuming of course, that the P.1216 would have been the annointed VSTOL successor to the first generation Harriers). The above illustration shows an "Americanized" P.1216 in the early Harrier II camoflauge scheme of the USMC- light gray undersides, dark green/dark gray topsides.

Given the expeditionary nature of USMC operations, this hypothetical Americanized version combines the RAF sensor nose variant with the enlarged wing booms of the RN naval variant. The other change is the adoption of a diffferent set of electronic warfare antennas on the tailfins reflecting US electronics instead of British electronics.

The above example is in the colors of VMAT-203, the squadron responsible for all Harrier VSTOL training within the Marine Corps. There's no reason why they wouldn't keep that role had the Marines taken the P.1216- weapons loadout is very light reflecting the training role of VMAT-203 with Sidewinder training rounds on the wingtip missile rails.

In reality, the "Hawks" got their first Harrier IIs in 1983.


^On the eve of Desert Storm, some Marine Harrier II units were experimenting with lighter camoflauge than the original dark gray/dark green scheme- this example with VMA-542 wears a two tone gray wrap around scheme that was trialed at the squadron level by some of the Marine units- this one is in the markings of the "Flying Tigers" denoted by the yellow stripes on the tailfin. In reality, VMA-542 converted from the AV-8A to the AV-8B Harrier II beginning in 1987.

Weapons loadout on this example includes the wingtip Sidewinder AAMs and Mk. 20 Rockeye CBUs under the wings, wing booms, and fuselage.


^Some Marine units tried a lighter set of grays in the two-tone wraparound gray scheme, but only subtly lighter. This illustration is of a P.1216 in that variant scheme in the colors of VMA-331 as the real squadron wore during Desert Storm in 1991. Note the shark mouth on the nose section as were worn by the Bumblebees' Harrier IIs in the Gulf.

In reality VMA-331 was the first USMC Harrier II squadron, converting from A-4M Skyhawks to AV-8B Harrier IIs in 1983. Weapons loadout for this bird includes the Sidewinder AAMs on the wingtip stations, Mk. 20 Rockeye CBUs on the fuselage and wing boom stations, and 500 lb Mk. 82 Snakeye air-retarded bombs on the wing pylons. During Desert Storm, Marine Harriers dropped mostly CBUs, but also napalm and conventional iron "dumb" bombs.

Unfortunately for VMA-331, post Cold War cutbacks eventually led to the squadron being disbanded.
 

aemann

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
Website
www.bisbos.com
Does anyone a decent 3-view of this thing? I'd really like to build a 3D model of it to see how it looks. Top quality profile art BTW.
 

Thorvic

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
601
Reaction score
10
aemann said:
Does anyone a decent 3-view of this thing? I'd really like to build a 3D model of it to see how it looks. Top quality profile art BTW.
Is that for 3D CGI or an actual model of the P1216 ?

The three view drawing can be found in Tony Buttlers "British Secret Projects: Fighters" BTW
 

aemann

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
Website
www.bisbos.com
Its for a CGI model. I've now got a decent 3 view from my source... He Who Has Top Secret Drawings, so I'll be making a start pretty soon. In the meantime, you might like to have a look at http://www.bisbos.com/aircraft/ to see what I do. I'm busy building the Virtual RAF - as it would have been if a certain Mr Sandys hadn't wielded his axe. I'm currently working on a series of book illustrations, which includes, amongst others P1154, Vulcan B6, HS P1134, Vickers 432 "Tin Mozzie" and lots more. But you'll have to wait for the book to see them!
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,371
Reaction score
50
But you'll have to wait for the book to see them!
I'll wait for sure ::)

BTW, can you identify this projects?

http://www.bisbos.com/aircraft/brithyper/brithyper.html

The beast in the first to pictures looks like a fighter ???

Thanks in advance
 

aemann

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
Website
www.bisbos.com
Sure - its a HS Type 1019 E2 - One BS 1012/7 engine. High Mach research aircraft. One of my favourites - such a mad shape. There's a bigger version with two engines, which I must get round to one day soon.
 

Thorvic

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
601
Reaction score
10
aemann said:
Its for a CGI model. I've now got a decent 3 view from my source... He Who Has Top Secret Drawings, so I'll be making a start pretty soon. In the meantime, you might like to have a look at http://www.bisbos.com/aircraft/ to see what I do. I'm busy building the Virtual RAF - as it would have been if a certain Mr Sandys hadn't wielded his axe. I'm currently working on a series of book illustrations, which includes, amongst others P1154, Vulcan B6, HS P1134, Vickers 432 "Tin Mozzie" and lots more. But you'll have to wait for the book to see them!
Yeap Adrian

Have a word with Mike as he has some very useful drawings and details on the P1216 through his links. They should be just what you need for the CGI artwork or at least help towards getting a feel for the size and shape of the actual aircraft and its multiple variants.

Cheers

Geoff
 

harrier

BAe P.1216 book: harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,014
Reaction score
50
Some pics I did 'earlier', based on P1216 version in Tony Buttler's Fighters book, that might help.

See also http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/projects.htm and click on those project numbers in blue for other P.xxxx pics from Kingston
 

Attachments

Martin H

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Website
whatifmodels.multiply.com
Plus with Thorvics help (he did the master) im working on a resin kit of the P1216. A prototype batch is in the hands of certain what if? sig members. and once ive ironed out the bugs and got some spare cash for the extra RTV and resin ill need..................



At the moment your looking at a price of around £20 sterling. but that depends on how much extra work ive got to put into it.
 

dwomby

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Martin

OK - what do I have to do to get one (1/72 P1216), pls? Desperately wanted one for years.

David W.
 

roberto_yeager

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
93
Reaction score
0
Oh!!!!! Great!!!

I really love a P.1216 in Spanish Navy colours... with couple of Amraams and a sharkmouth....

Could it be???


Please.... ::) ::)


1Saludo
 

Sundog

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,638
Reaction score
49
Yes, where did you get good drawings of the P.1216? I would love to get a copy of them so I can model it for Microsoft Flight Simulator.
 

Martin H

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Website
whatifmodels.multiply.com
still no progess on the resin kit im afraid gents, money has been in very short surply and other things have had to take prioity, but a new mould for some of the smaller items for the model is on its way...only very slowly at the moment.
 

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
Okay, so maybe the final camouflage color used by the Royal Australian Navy's Skyhawks might not have been in use by 1990, but I wanted to see what it would look like on the Peregrine. This presumes that the sale of the HMS Invincible to Australia went ahead and she was renamed HMAS Australia with a deckload of Peregrines.

Mmmmm....I'm liking how that sounds......."a deckload of Peregrines"........
 

Attachments

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
Some planes are just too damn cool even with most low-viz of camouflage schemes. Here's an RAN Peregrine with AIM-120s and a Hornet-style TPS scheme.
 

Attachments

KKDFOS

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
These might be of interest(models for Wings Over Europe).

RAF version:


FAA version
 

harrier

BAe P.1216 book: harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,014
Reaction score
50
Great shots! Is this available to buy yet? I can't wait to get my hands on it!

I recently found the weirdest P1216 picture at:

http://eccentricity.m78.com/images/2005/P1216.html

with a link to a more sensible P.1214 pic (http://eccentricity.m78.com/images/2005/P1214.html)

Are there any Japanese memebers on this forum who can explain what that site is all about?
 

SteveO

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
367
Reaction score
2
Interesting Flight pic of a FSW P1214 style aircraft launching from a carrier ski jump here http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1984/1984%20-%200113.html
 

palpatine

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
How about a P. 1216 in US Navy colours? The idea is that the US Navy actually built some Sea Control Ships in the late 1970's. They were initially equipped w/ Harriers but these were replaced w/ P. 1216's in the late 1980's.
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,371
Reaction score
50
They were initially equipped w/ Harriers but these were replaced w/ P. 1216's in the late 1980's
Initially, the US Navy never thought to equip its SCS with Hawker P.1127 Harrier. Please, take a look here:

They were initially equipped w/ Harriers but these were replaced w/ P. 1216's in the late 1980's
 

simmie

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Hi there

Just to say that I am getting red crosses for the mid 90's RAF (P.1, Reply#13)

and the US Marines (P.1, Reply#14).

sorry if this puts anybody out.
 

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
simmie said:
Hi there

Just to say that I am getting red crosses for the mid 90's RAF (P.1, Reply#13)

and the US Marines (P.1, Reply#14).

sorry if this puts anybody out.
The 1995 Operation Deliberate Force RAF P.1216s have been fixed and added back to my original posting. Still have to dig up the USMC ones........
 

PMN1

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
679
Reaction score
20
The weapons on the booms are carried on the forward part of the boom, could they have been carried further back as well, for example two MRAAM in tandem down the length of each boom?
 

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
19
Website
theavgeeks.com
PMN1 said:
The weapons on the booms are carried on the forward part of the boom, could they have been carried further back as well, for example two MRAAM in tandem down the length of each boom?
Possibly, but the main landing gear bay is in the boom approximately where the wing/boom area is located.
 
Top