Fighter Aircraft for Passenger Transport !

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Justo Miranda

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Source (english text) and funny drawing
 

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Wow, four men in a 109 ?! Remarkable ! Any mention about the mission of such a
modification ? Just removing the armour plate and the radio probably wouldn't have
been sufficient, as those men too easily would have fouled the control rods and cables
then. And "boarding/unboarding" would have been a task for trained gymnasts only !
If you have a look at an original 109, you'll know, what I mean !
But many thanks for posting this !
 
Jemiba said:
Wow, four men in a 109 ?! Remarkable ! Any mention about the mission of such a
modification ?
Click to expand...


I think the "mission" if you want to call it that was the rapid evacuation of fields being overrun - I seem to recall reading of incidents using both the Bf-109 and Fw-190 where ground crew or even other pilots were flown to safety like this rather then be left behind.
 
Absolutely fantastic my dear Justo.
 
Justo Miranda said:
Source (english text) and funny drawing
Click to expand...

Holy crap that looks uncomfortable. Probably much less uncomfortable than dying in a Russian POW camp, but still...

aab.jpg

Mangusta-special-forces-685x456.jpg

640px-AH-64_Apache_extraction_exercise.jpg
 
GTX said:
I think the "mission" if you want to call it that was the rapid evacuation of fields being overrun -
Click to expand...

With the armour plate and radio needed to be removed first, a good early warning may have been needed.
But another point coming to my mind, when looking at this drawing, is the shift of CG. Don't think, that
armour and radio would have equalled the weight of three men ! So probably this proposal was never tested.
 
Jemiba wrote:


"So probably this proposal was never tested."
[/size]
[/size]So it is in the right Forum :) !
 
I think there was an American pow who escaped from Yugoslavia with the couple that sheltered him in the back .
[corection amercan pow james gun was the pasenger the pilot was a romainian defector]
post-105245-0-14543400-1391721576.jpg
 
Jemiba said:
With the armour plate and radio needed to be removed first, a good early warning may have been needed.
But another point coming to my mind, when looking at this drawing, is the shift of CG. Don't think, that
armour and radio would have equalled the weight of three men ! So probably this proposal was never tested.
Click to expand...


You would be surprised how fast people can remove such things when they need to. Also, when faced with the prospect of capture or escape such things as ease of flight (from CG imbalance or similar) hardly come to mind. This most certainly wouldn't be a thing anyone bothered to test - consider the environment it was conducted in.

As I mentioned above, I do recall accounts of this sort of evacuation being done a number of times using both Bf109s and FW190s - I will try to find the sources.
 
Ok, I agree ! The well known incident with the Spitfire mechanic "forgotten" on the tail, shows,
that CG problems were solvable. It was a much higher leverage ratio, then in the Bf 109,
overall weight would have still been ok, and yes, in the face of immediate danger, things can
be done really fast !

I've split this part from the Bf 109/Hirth Lastenträger thread, so such proposals and incidents
can be better discussed here, without straying OT from the original topic. I hope, it meets
your interests ...
 
Then years later, there was this proposal with the F-106.

http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=144
 
GTX said:
As I mentioned above, I do recall accounts of this sort of evacuation being done a number of times using both Bf109s and FW190s - I will try to find the sources.
Click to expand...

I've also read an account of it. In "Fw190 at War" Seems to ring a bell in the back of my mind.
 
shaba said:
I think there was an American pow who escaped from Yugoslavia with the couple that sheltered him in the back .
[corection amercan pow james gun was the pasenger the pilot was a romainian defector]
Click to expand...
This was not a defector, it was Cantacuzino who transported Lt-Col James Gunn III (POW in Romania) in the back of a Bf 109 G for a diplomatic mission after Romania left the Axis, see for example :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Cantacuzino_%28aviator%29
A large US flag was painted on the aircraft to avoid it being shot down.
 
gordon2.jpg

Caption: "Emerging from the cramped confines of the radio compartment of FW 190 F-8 W.Nr 585 584 'White 9 + -' at Kitzingen, 8 May 1945"

See here for story: http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/kitzingen.htm
 
Not at hand in the moment, but it was in a book about the airwar in Northern Africa,
where I saw a photo (staged after the incident) showing how a british pilot was rescued
by his comrade, who had landed in the desert beside his stricken aircraft and carried him
back, sitting on his lap.
 
Jemiba said:
a british pilot was rescued
by his comrade, who ahd landed in the desert beside his stricken aircraft and carried him
back, sitting on his lap.
Click to expand...


Quite common it would appear - I have read cases of British, American and German pilots all doing the same.
 
& officially strictly forbidden, since - as often as not - the would be rescuer was downed too..

Although P-38s were also modified to carry people pods on their ordnance pylons,
& Mosquitos carried persons specially fitted into the bomb-bay..
 
GTX said:
As I mentioned above, I do recall accounts of this sort of evacuation being done a number of times using both Bf109s and FW190s - I will try to find the sources.
Click to expand...

Maybe Rudel's memoirs late in the war when he flew the FW190? I don't remember where, but I've read it, I am certain.
 
There was a three-seat business aircraft based on surplus P-51s after the war.


I think there were a few similar uses of WWI surplus as well. I can't find the information at the moment though.
 
Commercial airtransport in Germany actually started with converted WW I aircraft,
amongst them several former fighter types.
 
The rather lovely P-51H featured in post #11 of the "Increasing the charge..." thread - in 'Propulsion'..
..appears to be carrying a passenger, albeit some fighters were converted to dual seat pilot trainers too..
 
& AFAIR, a P-38 was selected as a 2-seat conversion..
.. for the likes of Allied senior staff - such as Ike - to do a bit of a sightseeing over Normandy post D-day..

(& it was picked out specifically - as being the least likely subject of a 'friendly-fire incident' - due to its looks)..
 
J.A.W. said:
The rather lovely P-51H featured in post #11 of the "Increasing the charge..." thread - in 'Propulsion'..
..appears to be carrying a passenger, albeit some fighters were converted to dual seat pilot trainers too..
Click to expand...

Several P-51s were converted to two seat aircraft in 1944. One flew Eisenhower over the Normandy beaches on D+1, I seem to remember reading somewhere.
 
Are you sure?

Maybe his 'double' went up in it.. ( & when did the bubble canopy D-model P-51 enter service?)

..AFAIR 'F-F' was a real concern & the P-38 was a dead giveaway as an American plane..

& Mustangs.. particularly the 'razor-back' types.. not so much..
 
It was a P-51B,with the fuselage fuel tank relocated and a seat installed behind the pilot. Named 'The Stars Look Down"

There are pictures of it if I can find them.

More information here: http://www.354thpmfg.com/HistoricFlight_part1.html
 
Ok, thanks J-S, I stand corrected, ..unless it really was Ike's double who went up..

Maybe it was some other brass, like Jimmy Doolittle - who felt the P-38 was the safer bet.. in the circumstances..
 

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