F-22 vs. F-23 decision

[martinbayer]

I apologize in advance if I inadvertently retrace previous discussions (although I did perform a forum search) or open old grievances, but this item caught my attention: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...the-yf-23-lost?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

If this is redundant, repetitive (despite my search efforts), or considered inflammatory, moderators please feel free to nuke, edit, or redirect it.

 

[red admiral]

There's a lot similar in the thread below. It is not surprising that other people besides test pilots are involved in the selection of a contractor for a tens of billions $ project.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-mcdonnell-douglas-atf-yf-23a-and-emd-f-23.1092/

 

[flateric]

I apologize in advance if I inadvertently retrace previous discussions (although I did perform a forum search) or open old grievances, but this item caught my attention: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...the-yf-23-lost?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

If this is redundant, repetitive (despite my search efforts), or considered inflammatory, moderators please feel free to nuke, edit, or redirect it.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-mcdonnell-douglas-atf-yf-23a-and-emd-f-23.1092/post-603196

 

[martinbayer]

Thanks for reminding me, Flat Eric of Levi's fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Eric) - I learned a thing or two from your post tonight .

 

[mkellytx]

I apologize in advance if I inadvertently retrace previous discussions (although I did perform a forum search) or open old grievances, but this item caught my attention: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...the-yf-23-lost?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

If this is redundant, repetitive (despite my search efforts), or considered inflammatory, moderators please feel free to nuke, edit, or redirect it.

It bears mentioning that there are source selection boards which are made up off many high-level people for programs of this size and their staff to evaluate the selection is measured in the hundreds. Test pilot reports are only one among many inputs to this board.

Rumor has it that LM did a far superior job than NG of describing the systems engineering and trade space than NG in order to win the contract. It's up to the reader to Google publicly available information to back this up.

It's also worth mentioning that the way the competition was set up that best value was the criteria so if both options met the basic requirements, then it was up to the source selection board to decide the best option based upon their criteria which may or may not of been public source,

 

[martinbayer]

It bears mentioning that there are source selection boards which are made up off many high-level people for programs of this size and their staff to evaluate the selection is measured in the hundreds. Test pilot reports are only one among many inputs to this board.

Rumor has it that LM did a far superior job than NG of describing the systems engineering and trade space than NG in order to win the contract. It's up to the reader to Google publicly available information to back this up.

It's also worth mentioning that the way the competition was set up that best value was the criteria so if both options met the basic requirements, then it was up to the source selection board to decide the best option based upon their criteria which may or may not of been public source,

I am in no position whatsoever to question or dispute how the decision was made in this particular case, since I have no particular professional experience whatsoever at all in VTOL supersonic stealth fighter design, but I still *vividly* recall the at least somewhat adjacent USG X-33 decision, which fairly unexpectedly picked the highest risk LM lifting body VTHL design and unsurprisingly ended up in *utter* failure. But, to quote my boss once more, I'm not bitter...

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

For this particular program, both competitors submitted excellent designs that the USAF would have had a fantastic ATF regardless of whether the F-22 or F-23 was chosen. They had their performance advantages and disadvantages in certain areas, but it wasn't major or decisive, and since both designs are technically competitive it came down to confidence in program management. USAF chief engineer of the ATF program Rick Abell gave a good interview from a neutral perspective and ultimately, both airplanes would have been excellent and were comparable in performance, with neither being decisively better.

This is in contrast with some other programs such as the TFX (F-111) where one of the submissions was decisively better in terms of performance, but was rejected. However, even performance itself isn't necessarily the decisive factor since arguments can be made about the degree of technical risk and cost that you are willing to assume in order to achieve that. There are examples in history where the technically superior competitor was chosen, but the program failed due to excessive risk assumed and large cost overruns; the aforementioned X-33 is one such example.