F-14 + AIM 54 in fleet defense

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
1 May 2011
Messages
697
Reaction score
500
Intercept the missiles. Which is what the 14 did anyway, because it couldn't cover more than a narrow arc reliably.
View: https://twitter.com/ThrustWR/status/1728588879010181243?t=o8tGAfoXs35gptNnMdAfpQ&s=19


If you want to have this discussion, we could move to a different thread. I don't think this is the place for it.

I'm very interested in this :)

The 14s didn't intercept the missiles in combat, same as they didn't intercept the missileers in the form of Tu-22 or 22m/26. Let's not confuse capability with intent, and either of the two with what a random internet person tells us.
The F-14s were not to be flown in ones and twos when the enemy is expected to bring his big guns to the fray, but in flights, if not squadrons. Four F-14s can cover more than 180 deg sector.

54A did not have acceptable ECCM to handle backfires. Soviet DECM with proper response jamming and multi ship synchronization was far better than the 60s era analog circuitry of Phoenix/AWG-9 could handle.
Even APG-63 PSP struggled.

Was the premise of Backfires out-teching the 54As ever tested? If yes, please show sources. Ditto for general Soviet abilities to jam US gear; again, not premises, but real stuff.

Friedman's book does extensively cover the means by which the F-14s would be cued to intercept the bombers, including the use DSP satellites as part of Slow Walker, and basing a Relocatable-Over-The-Horizon-Radar in Scotland.

The entire point of the F-14s was to shoot down the Backfires, because the Soviets had limited amount of Backfires and the specially trained Naval Aviation crews to fly them. The US hope was that by shooting down enough Backfires and killing their crews in the process, that Soviet Naval Aviation could be rendered ineffective and allow US CVBGs free reign.

Aegis' role was primarily to act as a goalkeeper to shoot down missiles that were launched before the bombers got shot down, however there were plans that if given sufficient warning, a radar-silent Aegis cruiser could be sent down the threat vector to ambush the bombers when they flew overhead. This would have had the same problems as the F-14 chainsaw when it came to covering a single arc.

Agreed all the way.
 
Tu-22M + X-22
 

Attachments

  • 22М (165).jpg
    22М (165).jpg
    254.5 KB · Views: 489
  • czU3LnJhZGlrYWwucnUvaTE1Ny8xMjA4L2QwLzM4NmFkODIxMTAwNC5qcGc=.jpg
    czU3LnJhZGlrYWwucnUvaTE1Ny8xMjA4L2QwLzM4NmFkODIxMTAwNC5qcGc=.jpg
    36.6 KB · Views: 173
I don't think an American aircraft carrier would be stupid enough to enter the Black Sea. He is not safe in the Mediterranean Sea either
The combat range of the Tu-22M3 is 1500 - 2410 km.
Translation of the name of the stand: air strike of the Tu-22M tactical bomber regiment against the aircraft carrier mobile group in the RBM
I find it difficult to decipher what РБМ is, maybe a "missiles - bombing maneuver"?
 

Attachments

  • 2410km.JPG
    2410km.JPG
    337.5 KB · Views: 146
Last edited:
I don't think an American aircraft carrier would be stupid enough to enter the Black Sea. He is not safe in the Mediterranean Sea either
The combat range of the Tu-22M3 is 1500 - 2410 km.
Translation of the name of the stand: air strike of the Tu-22M tactical bomber regiment against the aircraft carrier mobile group in the RBM
I find it difficult to decipher what РБМ is, maybe a "missiles - bombing maneuver"?
It can't enter. The Montreaux Convention prevents non Black Sea nations sending ships over 10,000 tons into the Black Sea amongst other restrictions.
 
I'd have to expect that if any USN ships went into the Black Sea in a Cold War goes hot scenario they'd be doomed. I'd have to assume USN leadership knew this as well.

In the western half of the Mediterranean Sea I'd expect a CBG to be rather safe since any Tu-22M strike trying to get to them would have to get by Italian air defenses first. I'm not sure how good an interceptor the upgraded Italian F-104S would be or if they had any sort of long-range SAMs but if anything they should at least be able to detect the incoming strike and give enough warning to the USN to get the F-14s airborne and in position to intercept. It probably wouldn't be a smart move by the Soviets since chances are they'd lose a lot of Backfires with nothing to show for it. Going into the Eastern Mediterranean gets riskier for sure since besides from the Backfire threat there are whatever Soviet submarines are lurking in that area. I've no idea how reliably Greece or Turkey could detect and possibly intercept Soviet bombers.
 
I'm very interested in this :)

The 14s didn't intercept the missiles in combat, same as they didn't intercept the missileers in the form of Tu-22 or 22m/26. Let's not confuse capability with intent, and either of the two with what a random internet person tells us.
The F-14s were not to be flown in ones and twos when the enemy is expected to bring his big guns to the fray, but in flights, if not squadrons. Four F-14s can cover more than 180 deg sector.



Was the premise of Backfires out-teching the 54As ever tested? If yes, please show sources. Ditto for general Soviet abilities to jam US gear; again, not premises, but real stuff.



Agreed all the way.
First point. Read the first snippet from the Friedman chapter. The entire arc of protection against bombers was to be 45-60 degrees. Not each fighter. They were explicitly concerned about the effects that Russian jamming had or was going to have on their equipment. TU-22Ms of the 70s carried internal defensive jamming systems that were very advanced and AWG-9 had very little ECCM capability. Yes. F-14 was designed to intercept bombers before launch. But the capability was not really there given what I know and what Friedman explicitly says.

Second point. No, we didn't shoot a 54A at a backfire, but if you understand how response jamming with optional velocity gate drag works, you should know that they would be useless even against the higher power HPRF of AWG-9. It was also an analog filtered set(to the best of my knowledge, some details are classified), making it inherently more vulnerable to ECM. (Worth noting that the 54C suffered from almost none of these ECM related issues and was nothing short of phenomenal, but it was arguably too late to be relevant.)

Here's a 15 pilot discussing USSR jamming equipment and its effect on a lock.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTrjwavz5q8&t=178s
 
Last edited:
First point. Read the first snippet from the Friedman chapter. The entire arc of protection against bombers was to be 45-60 degrees. Not each fighter. They were explicitly concerned about the effects that Russian jamming had or was going to have on their equipment. TU-22Ms of the 70s carried internal defensive jamming systems that were very advanced and AWG-9 had very little ECCM capability. Yes. F-14 was designed to intercept bombers before launch. But the capability was not really there given what I know and what Friedman explicitly says.

Second point. No, we didn't shoot a 54A at a backfire, but if you understand how response jamming with optional velocity gate drag works, you should know that they would be useless even against the higher power HPRF of AWG-9. It was also an analog filtered set(to the best of my knowledge, some details are classified), making it inherently more vulnerable to ECM. (Worth noting that the 54C suffered from almost none of these ECM related issues and was nothing short of phenomenal, but it was arguably too late to be relevant.)

Here's a 15 pilot discussing USSR jamming equipment and its effect on a lock.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTrjwavz5q8&t=178s
Friedman's book does extensively cover the means by which the F-14s would be cued to intercept the bombers, including the use DSP satellites as part of Slow Walker, and basing a Relocatable-Over-The-Horizon-Radar in Scotland.

The entire point of the F-14s was to shoot down the Backfires, because the Soviets had limited amount of Backfires and the specially trained Naval Aviation crews to fly them. The US hope was that by shooting down enough Backfires and killing their crews in the process, that Soviet Naval Aviation could be rendered ineffective and allow US CVBGs free reign.

Aegis' role was primarily to act as a goalkeeper to shoot down missiles that were launched before the bombers got shot down, however there were plans that if given sufficient warning, a radar-silent Aegis cruiser could be sent down the threat vector to ambush the bombers when they flew overhead. This would have had the same problems as the F-14 chainsaw when it came to covering a single arc.
You’re still not showing where the Phoenix was going to down the cruise missiles. Your post is also jumping btw the effects of jamming on radar and missiles. So -54C was better at ECCM but what about the aircraft radar?

The goal is to get the bombers. That’s In Friedman's book
 
In the western half of the Mediterranean Sea I'd expect a CBG to be rather safe since any Tu-22M strike trying to get to them would have to get by Italian air defenses first. I'm not sure how good an interceptor the upgraded Italian F-104S would be or if they had any sort of long-range SAMs but if anything they should at least be able to detect the incoming strike and give enough warning to the USN to get the F-14s airborne and in position to intercept. It probably wouldn't be a smart move by the Soviets since chances are they'd lose a lot of Backfires with nothing to show for it. Going into the Eastern Mediterranean gets riskier for sure since besides from the Backfire threat there are whatever Soviet submarines are lurking in that area. I've no idea how reliably Greece or Turkey could detect and possibly intercept Soviet bombers.
USN did not rely of NATO members air cover much - mainly because it was assumed that they would be busy protecting themselves - but assumed that it could use their early warning. The main problem in Mediterranean was the Soviet 5th Operation Squadron; consisting usually of up to 30 surface warships and 15-20 submarines (both diesel and nuclear powered), it represented a significant threat to US forces. Since the distances in Mediterranean were relatively small, standoff position was not always possible for carriers.
 
USN did not rely of NATO members air cover much - mainly because it was assumed that they would be busy protecting themselves - but assumed that it could use their early warning. The main problem in Mediterranean was the Soviet 5th Operation Squadron; consisting usually of up to 30 surface warships and 15-20 submarines (both diesel and nuclear powered), it represented a significant threat to US forces. Since the distances in Mediterranean were relatively small, standoff position was not always possible for carriers.
Yes if I were in charge I'd be rather uncomfortable taking a CVBG or any surface task force past Sicily primarily due to the submarine threat. I would hope that NATO submarine and ASW assets could do a good job of patrolling the gap between Sicily and Tunisia.

The Soviet surface warships with their impressive AShM batteries are always a concern if they got close enough but how did the Soviets intend to use these, especially in the wide expanses of the North Atlantic? Were they really going to attempt to have a surface task force charge ahead to get within AShM range for a massed attack on a CVBG?
 
Yes if I were in charge I'd be rather uncomfortable taking a CVBG or any surface task force past Sicily primarily due to the submarine threat. I would hope that NATO submarine and ASW assets could do a good job of patrolling the gap between Sicily and Tunisia.
The general idea of USN operations in Mediterranean was, as far as I understood, to try to hide carriers and other highly valuable units among dense maritime traffic, while escorts would try to shadow Soviet units movement (while Soviet units would be shadowing USN units movement).

The Soviet surface warships with their impressive AShM batteries are always a concern if they got close enough but how did the Soviets intend to use these, especially in the wide expanses of the North Atlantic? Were they really going to attempt to have a surface task force charge ahead to get within AShM range for a massed attack on a CVBG?
Not sure, frankly.
 
In the western half of the Mediterranean Sea I'd expect a CBG to be rather safe since any Tu-22M strike trying to get to them would have to get by Italian air defenses first. I'm not sure how good an interceptor the upgraded Italian F-104S would be or if they had any sort of long-range SAMs but if anything they should at least be able to detect the incoming strike and give enough warning to the USN to get the F-14s airborne and in position to intercept. It probably wouldn't be a smart move by the Soviets since chances are they'd lose a lot of Backfires with nothing to show for it.

Italy used Hawk missiles until 2004. And their F-104S were the only lawn darts to have AIM-7 Sparrow.

Can't remember which air defenses France had in Corsica. Main air base is Solenzara. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenzara_Air_Base
 
You’re still not showing where the Phoenix was going to down the cruise missiles. Your post is also jumping btw the effects of jamming on radar and missiles. So -54C was better at ECCM but what about the aircraft radar?

The goal is to get the bombers. That’s In Friedman's book
It discusses it in the book. The missiles were the tertiary target. High closing velocity target against a pulse doppler guided missile. Ignoring the defensive ECM on the missiles, they would stick out like a sore thumb.
As I already I said, AWG-9 was an analog filtered radar. It sorely lacked in ECCM performance. This topic is discussed elsewhere on this website.

I never doubted the GOAL being to get the bombers, but I doubt that the operational realities would allow it.
 
Italy used Hawk missiles until 2004. And their F-104S were the only lawn darts to have AIM-7 Sparrow.
Actually, Italy used Nike-Hercules as long-range air defense up until 2006. Most of them were concentrated in North Italy, though.
 
It discusses it in the book. The missiles were the tertiary target. High closing velocity target against a pulse doppler guided missile. Ignoring the defensive ECM on the missiles, they would stick out like a sore thumb.
As I already I said, AWG-9 was an analog filtered radar. It sorely lacked in ECCM performance. This topic is discussed elsewhere on this website.

I never doubted the GOAL being to get the bombers, but I doubt that the operational realities would allow it.
Actually the 4th target set after missile carrying bombers. Then jammers. Then empty bombers, then the missiles
 
Actually the 4th target set after missile carrying bombers. Then jammers. Then empty bombers, then the missiles
That was the intention. I never doubted that. You brought up that red herring.
I am explicitly doubting that they would be able to defend effectively against a multi-vector attack by hitting the bombers before they reached release point. Everything I can tell indicates that they would only have time and ability to hit missiles, which AEGIS did far better.

GAO reports indicate that the 111B was at least equal to or better than the 14 at fleet defense missions. The don't go into much detail as to why or how they reached that conclusion, though.
 
That was the intention. I never doubted that. You brought up that red herring.
I am explicitly doubting that they would be able to defend effectively against a multi-vector attack by hitting the bombers before they reached release point. Everything I can tell indicates that they would only have time and ability to hit missiles, which AEGIS did far better.

GAO reports indicate that the 111B was at least equal to or better than the 14 at fleet defense missions. The don't go into much detail as to why or how they reached that conclusion, though.
Well. If you’re going to use the Friedman book to prove your point, maybe not leave out certain things. You keep insisting that Tomcat/Phoenix was there to shoot down the missiles.

Whether F14/AWG9/-54A could have done their job is another story but some solid references saying as much would be great. But not shooting down those bombers would have invited repeated attacks as Friedman states.
111B had better bring back than F-14, but same radar and missiles.
 
Well. If you’re going to use the Friedman book to prove your point, maybe not leave out certain things. You keep insisting that Tomcat/Phoenix was there to shoot down the missiles.

Whether F14/AWG9/-54A could have done their job is another story but some solid references saying as much would be great. But not shooting down those bombers would have invited repeated attacks as Friedman states.
111B had better bring back than F-14, but same radar and missiles.
No, I said it ONLY WAS GOING TO. Not whether or not it was intended for one thing or another. How many times do I need to say "the AWG-9/AIM-54A/F-14A was intended to shoot down bombers" for you to understand that I'm not arguing with that?

Stop it with this red herring. It's getting really annoying.
My biggest complaint about the F-14 is that it was NOT going to be capable of completing the role it was designed for. NOT that it was designed to intercept missiles.

Yes, shooting down the bombers was a priority, but it mentions that they would have only been able to defend against one 45-60 degree vector when operating with one-carrier formations, as was standard at the time. It was also a very close run operation. They had very, very little time to scramble and get to an intercept point in time. Extended CAP would help, but it was not a panacea. Unless, as mentioned, they had external warnings. Relying on external warnings to intercept bombers is a very sketchy deal.

Go elsewhere on this site to read about AWG-9, as I did myself before starting this discussion months ago. It doesn't appear to have digital signal processing and definitely did not receive more advanced ECCM modes like APG-63 had until it was replaced by APG-71, which incorporated improvements from APG-70, an updated APG-63.
 
Last edited:
“No, I said it ONLY WAS GOING TO. Not whether or not it was intended for one thing or another. How many times do I need to say "the AWG-9/AIM-54A/F-14A was intended to shoot down bombers" for you to understand that I'm not arguing with that?“


Post in thread 'Advanced US short-range AAMS for the 1970s - AIM-82, AIM-95 Agile, CLAW'
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-1970s-aim-82-aim-95-agile-claw.7/post-642741
 
Bit of hyperbole but still true. Being able to launch on multiple CMs was an important advantage that F-4J did not have. F-4J required a low altitude frontal attack to secure a likely kill on a low-flying CM and required PD-STT. The Phoenix allowed for a much easier interception.

I don't get your point here.
How many times did a Phoenix in tests intercept multiple AS-4 stand ins?
 
How many times did a Phoenix in tests intercept multiple AS-4 stand ins?
That's not information either of us have.
Going down this route of "could it intercept AShMs" will only make the 14 look worse though, so if you're trying to defend the reputation of the tomcat, this isn't going to go well. There are COUNTLESS reports of AWG-9 having trouble with low altitude targets. One comes from a USAF document on fighting the Tomcat in ACM, which states that F-15s should stay low and drop chaff to hide in the ground clutter.

I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt because Kh-22 was very fast and therefore would have had quite the outstanding doppler shift. This would have been easy to exploit in the velocity search mode, but as TWS was range gated, it could have been more susceptible to the onboard defensive ECM of a missile.
 
Last edited:
That's not information either of us have.
Going down this route of "could it intercept AShMs" will only make the 14 look worse though, so if you're trying to defend the reputation of the tomcat, this isn't going to go well. There are COUNTLESS reports of AWG-9 having trouble with low altitude targets. One comes from a USAF document on fighting the Tomcat in ACM, which states that F-15s should stay low and drop chaff to hide in the ground clutter.

I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt because X-22 was very fast and therefore would have had quite the outstanding doppler shift. This would have been easy to exploit in the velocity search mode, but as TWS was range gated, it could have been more susceptible to the onboard defensive ECM of a missile.
You have consistently made assertions without proof and then backtracked when faced with your own words. The new one is the F-14 was there to shoot down missiles but now it wouldn’t do that either.
Your
Own
Words
 
Please, stop this bilateral debate, you made clear your points, I think.
And reading your posts, they seem to include at least some personal opinions/
interpretations, so there should be room for tolerating others.
Answer the argument, not the one, who came up with it.
 
That's not information either of us have.
Going down this route of "could it intercept AShMs" will only make the 14 look worse though, so if you're trying to defend the reputation of the tomcat, this isn't going to go well. There are COUNTLESS reports of AWG-9 having trouble with low altitude targets. One comes from a USAF document on fighting the Tomcat in ACM, which states that F-15s should stay low and drop chaff to hide in the ground clutter.

it could have been more susceptible to the onboard defensive ECM of a missile.

So, these posts show very little relation to reality at all. You ascribe all the limitations to one one side and grant all possible capability to the other.

1) The original 1965 Kh-22 is launched from a Tu-22 or Tu-22M flying at 8-12km and flies at 22km cruise altitude, above the Tomcat, at high closing speed, diving onto the target from height, making both bomber and missile as perfect targets for a High PRF / pulse radar like AWG-9 / AWG-10 while in flight. This is not surprising as this is exactly the kind of threat these systems was designed to counter.

Original 1965 Kh-22 has no defensive ECM - height and speed were its only defences - nor any ECCM in the radar seeker, which made it vulnerable to ship-based jamming in the terminal phase and unable to counter AWG-9 or AIM-54A locks.

2) As the Tomcat and improved F-4J versions came into service, the USSR redesigned the Kh-22 missiles for low level launches. Concerned that the high flying bomber aircraft would be too easily shot down, it was intended to fly them at 1000m - 8000m. From low altitudes, the upgraded Kh-22 missiles would cruise at 12km instead of 22km, but speed and range were significantly reduced in this mode - Mach 2 cruise, and 110km range at 1000m launch and 240km at 8000m. The improved missiles had ECCM capability added to the seeker of the radar homing version, but still no defensive ECM.

Now lets talk about guidance options of these missiles.

A) The inertial guided version was fairly certain to miss a moving target (and not terribly accurate against stationary ones), so needed a nuclear warhead to have any chance of utility.

B) The active radar guided version needed its host aircraft to detect the carrier from 350km range, just about doable in a Tu-22M with PN-A radar flying at 12km, then receive mid-course corrections from said carrier aircraft, which has to be able to resist any jamming from the carrier group to track the carrier as the missile flies out until the active radar on the missile takes over. Not sure how a far a Tu-22M at 1000m would be able to detect a carrier.

C) The passive radar homing version was intended to counter Nike-Ajax and Bomarc, and was not very successful nor used much - the Tu-22M3 dropped the improved Kurs-NM Elint station needed to support it and its seeker wasn't really useful.

The modern Kh-32 version uses modern guidance systems and is a very much more useful missile.

All this is leaving out the Carrier groups assets like the EA-6.

Tomcat + AWG-9 + AIM-54 was a perfectly sensible system for the threat in 1976. With the USSR switching to low level attacks, the AWG-71 + AIM-54C was a sensible improvement over it.

The Kh-22 wasn't some super-weapon, but it wasn't a negligible threat either. The acquisition of the Tomcat/AWG-9/AIM-54 system was a huge expense.

I suggest reading

КРЫЛАТЫЕ РАКЕТЫ СССР И РОССИИ Виктор Марковский / Игорь Приходченко
CRUISE MISSILES OF THE USSR AND RUSSIA Viktor Markovsky / Igor Prikhodchenko (Eksmo 2016)

for a detailed account of the Kh-22 missile development testing and operations.
 
Last edited:
So, these posts show very little relation to reality at all. You ascribe all the limitations to one one side and grant all possible capability to the other.

1) The original 1965 Kh-22 is launched from a Tu-22 or Tu-22M flying at 8-12km and flies at 22km cruise altitude, above the Tomcat, at high closing speed, diving onto the target from height, making both bomber and missile as perfect targets for a High PRF / pulse radar like AWG-9 / AWG-10 while in flight. This is not surprising as this is exactly the kind of threat these systems was designed to counter.

Original 1965 Kh-22 has no defensive ECM - height and speed were its only defences - nor any ECCM in the radar seeker, which made it vulnerable to ship-based jamming in the terminal phase and unable to counter AWG-9 or AIM-54A locks.

2) As the Tomcat and improved F-4J versions came into service, the USSR redesigned the Kh-22 missiles for low level launches. Concerned that the high flying bomber aircraft would be too easily shot down, it was intended to fly them at 1000m - 8000m. From low altitudes, the upgraded Kh-22 missiles would cruise at 12km instead of 22km, but speed and range were significantly reduced in this mode - Mach 2 cruise, and 110km range at 1000m launch and 240km at 8000m. The improved missiles had ECCM capability added to the seeker of the radar homing version, but still no defensive ECM.

Now lets talk about guidance options of these missiles.

A) The inertial guided version was fairly certain to miss a moving target (and not terribly accurate against stationary ones), so needed a nuclear warhead to have any chance of utility.

B) The active radar guided version needed its host aircraft to detect the carrier from 350km range, just about doable in a Tu-22M with PN-A radar flying at 12km, then receive mid-course corrections from said carrier aircraft, which has to be able to resist any jamming from the carrier group to track the carrier as the missile flies out until the active radar on the missile takes over. Not sure how a far a Tu-22M at 1000m would be able to detect a carrier.

C) The passive radar homing version was intended to counter Nike-Ajax and Bomarc, and was not very successful nor used much - the Tu-22M3 dropped the improved Kurs-NM Elint station needed to support it and its seeker wasn't really useful.

The modern Kh-32 version uses modern guidance systems and is a very much more useful missile.

All this is leaving out the Carrier groups assets like the EA-6.

Tomcat + AWG-9 + AIM-54 was a perfectly sensible system for the threat in 1976. With the USSR switching to low level attacks, the AWG-71 + AIM-54C was a sensible improvement over it.

The Kh-22 wasn't some super-weapon, but it wasn't a negligible threat either. The acquisition of the Tomcat/AWG-9/AIM-54 system was a huge expense.

I suggest reading

КРЫЛАТЫЕ РАКЕТЫ СССР И РОССИИ Виктор Марковский / Игорь Приходченко
CRUISE MISSILES OF THE USSR AND RUSSIA Viktor Markovsky / Igor Prikhodchenko (Eksmo 2016)

for a detailed and honest account of the Kh-22 missile development testing and operations.
I'm mostly complaining pre-Aegis. This solved the missile interception problem either way. By the time 54C/APG-71 was in service, so was Aegis. I will also agree that I'm being somewhat unfair to the 14. In part, this is because I am comparing it to VFAX/111B, which would have been in service earlier and performed their respective roles better than the 14 did. I know that's a budgetary thing rather than a Grumman thing.
1/2: I was informed that the KH-22 had defensive ECM by a friend. If you're telling me it doesn't, I was wrong. In that case, AWG-9 should have no issues handling low-flying missiles.
Earlier AWG-9/54A should have been able to intercept the early Kh-22 by that point if had no ECM. I still don't see the 14s being particularly successful handling the backfires themselves if what I have been told about SPS-151 is correct.
All this is leaving out the Carrier groups assets like the EA-6.
I know. I don't know enough about those to discuss the ability of a carrier group to handle a backfire strike. I'm focusing on one plane and its ability to play its role in interception.

One final edit: I can't read Russian. I'm an American. The best you'll get out of me is a little bit of kindergarten-level Traditional Chinese.
 
Last edited:
One final edit: I can't read Russian. I'm an American. The best you'll get out of me is a little bit of kindergarten-level Traditional Chinese.
Just use google translate. It became extremely good in Russian-to-English translations in recent years.
 
Could do, but why? Seems annoyingly West-centric to ignore the actual known designations of things in favour of names we made up. Do I have also to say FULCRUM instead of MiG-29? BACKFIRE-C not Tu-22M3?

If you don't know what the Kh-22 was it only takes a 1 second Google search, after which you will know the correct Soviet/Russian designation for your obsolete ASCC Cold-war-era designation.
 
Just use google translate. It became extremely good in Russian-to-English translations in recent years.
Yes.

Obtain a PDF copy of a Russian book and you can copy paste text to Google Translate and get perfectly readable English.

Pro-tip - where words are hyphenated at line breaks in the original, delete the hyphen and join the two parts of the word back together. This helps the translation become almost completely readable.
 
Obtain a PDF copy of a Russian book and you can copy paste text to Google Translate and get perfectly readable English.
I also add that Google could translate whole PDF books perfectly well (I use this option to read "Perry Rhodan"... since I can't read German, I just google translate whole novels to English)
 
Regarding the AWG-9, it was an outstanding piece of engineering for its time. Some very complex (and heavy) computing power. Limitations too, especially in tailchase scenarios, but the bomber running away is less important than the one heading to the carrier.

It was conceptually older than the AN/APG-63, but more expensive, higher power, and longer ranged, with 24 target track-while scan capability. AN/APG-63 didn't get TWS mode (10 targets) until the PSP upgrade from 1979. AN/APG-63 was fully digital in presentation, which made it much easier for a single pilot to manage, but the AWG-9 had a raw radar display as well as a processed one which a skilled WSO could use in certain situations to make human interpretation.

1965 - 1975 saw rapid changes in computer technology which affected what was possible. AN/APG-63 was able to have a digital signal processor but it was hard wired and in some respects too early and caused as many problems as it solved. The AN/APG-65 was later again, able to have an excellent programmable signal processor, which was repurposed for the AN/APG-63 as the PSP upgrade in 1979 which really help unlocked the AN/APG-63 potential.

You can't expect a radar completed ten years earlier to have the same technical base. However, just being newer doesn't automatically mean better in all areas.
 
Last edited:
Regarding the AWG-9, it was an outstanding piece of engineering for its time. Some very complex (and heavy) computing power. Limitations too, especially in tailchase scenarios, but the bomber running away is less important than the one heading to the carrier.

It was conceptually older than the AN/APG-63, but more expensive, higher power, and longer ranged, with 24 target track-while scan capability. AN/APG-63 didn't get TWS mode (10 targets) until the PSP upgrade from 1979. AN/APG-63 was fully digital in presentation, which made it much easier for a single pilot to manage, but the AWG-9 had a raw radar display as well as a processed one which a skilled WSO could use in certain situations to make human interpretation.

You can't expect a radar completed ten years earlier to have the same technical base. However, just being newer doesn't automatically mean better in all areas.
I'm not discounting that either. TWS was, if memory serves, one of the main reasons the digital computer was added. Firing Phoenixes from TWS was an incredible feat for the time.
I don't believe AWG-9 was nearly as modular as APG-63 though, due to the way it had been iterated on over time. This might have been one of the limiting factors in why it didn't receive a PSP or DSP/DSA.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom