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Excellent research presentation about He 176

tartle

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As part of my researches into early jet propulsion elsewhere on this forum I stumbled across this rather interesting presentation of work done by Douglas Downer Smith, who has researched the He 176 to 'death':
It is interesting how the work on hydrogen peroxide propellant was part of the post-WW2 technology (and personnel) transfer to RAE, and formed the basis for Black Arrow, Blue Steel propulsion, etc. Use the link attached to download.
 

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theponja

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Thanks a lot for the link very interesting.

I've to say the early attempts cath my attention, Anyone has a 3d view of Lippish Ente or Opel ?

About the pdf is great to follow the process go get the real shape of aircraft.
Isn't clear to me if the develop the pid technique or it is previous and they use it.BTW Anyone has more information about pid?

Another question is if the correct 3d view is available, because any 3d view previous to 2009 seems to be wrong.
 

tartle

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Alcides... does this link help?... another that involves Downer-Smith.. I've put three-view from link below.
 

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theponja

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Thanks tartle.

I have that link but for that 3d view is from a book which publication year is 2005. So my question was if we know a new one with the data from 2009.
 

tartle

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I found this if you wish to follow up:
[font=verdana, arial][SIZE=-1]Douglas Downer-Smith, douglas.downersmith=fsnet.co.uk, 28.11.2009There have been many misconceptions about this aircraft which through thorough research and creating a relaible 2D drawing from the original two photographs in the Public Record Office, Kew, London, England, I can dispel. I have given several lectures on the subject of this aircraft in the UK and Germany. I have even recreated the aircraft in modern aircraft design software. I would be happy to correspond with anyone with a genuine interest in this unique aircraft.[/SIZE][/font]
 

sienar

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The pdf isn't working for me.


When I open it there is only one page, and on that page is a link to another pdf. However that link goes to a dead page (404 not found)
 

tartle

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Hope you can now all find the presentation... if someone follows up with the presenter will they post results here? I guess one of you should.. alcides? to save inundating him in emails!
 

theponja

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Ok. I'll try to contact him. I'll tell you the results :)
 

tartle

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Alcides... well volunteered! From the tone of his post he seems keen to share his research output!
 

downersmith

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Re: Excellent research presentation about He 176

Hello to the group and thank you for showing an interest in my research project - the Heinkel He 176.
My name is Douglas Downer-Smith and I would be happy to answer any queries specific to this aircraft. My research did cover a lot of ground from Luftwaffe archives in the Smithsonian, the German Document Centre in Duxford and the Heinkel Archives in Munich. The highlight was tracking down the son of the pilot and travelling to Switzerland to meet him. Beyond that I put together a lecture and gave this to audiences here in the UK and visiting Germany twice.
I feel that some of my work has given some insight into how this actually aircraft flew as opposed to some of the post war claims.
Thank you and regards
Douglas
 

Jemiba

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Welcome and many thanks and congratulations for your great research work !
Especially the reconstruction from the photo is very interesting for me .
Maybe I'll have to ask some questions (via PM). ! ;)
 

theponja

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Re: Excellent research presentation about He 176

downersmith said:
Hello to the group and thank you for showing an interest in my research project - the Heinkel He 176.
My name is Douglas Downer-Smith and I would be happy to answer any queries specific to this aircraft. My research did cover a lot of ground from Luftwaffe archives in the Smithsonian, the German Document Centre in Duxford and the Heinkel Archives in Munich. The highlight was tracking down the son of the pilot and travelling to Switzerland to meet him. Beyond that I put together a lecture and gave this to audiences here in the UK and visiting Germany twice.
I feel that some of my work has given some insight into how this actually aircraft flew as opposed to some of the post war claims.
Thank you and regards
Douglas

Oh, Hello and welcome. I'm searched the web and send you several emails. I believe all was lost but now we have hope :) .
I'd like ask if you have a detailed blueprint or 3d view from your presentation.
Thanks in advance
Alcides
 

downersmith

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Re: Excellent research presentation about He 176

Hello Alcides and thank you for your interest in this aircraft.

I am sorry but I did not receive any emails from you as I would most certainly have replied... I do see errors in the email address in the Post by: tartle on: September 08, 2012, 04:55:42 pm but no matter as I am here now.

The work I did to construct a reliable 2D drawing using the method I call PID was to have data points for the aircraft design software I was using to see how the aircraft might have flown. As such, the drawings are not smooth but a series of straight lines and I can not create a true CAD drawing with is method. I have yet to do this. I attach some scale drawings of the aircraft as produced by the design software which I hope are of interest? These show the general proportions and correct positions and shape of the aircraft's components.

Kind regards
Douglas
 

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Jemiba

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The drawings remind me of RcCad drawings.
 

tartle

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Great to see Douglas's excellent work...... those of you following the early gas turbine threads will have seen my interest on how we designed the compressor and turbine aerofoil shapes and how Griffith revolutionised axial compressor design by adopting Prandtl's circulatory theory for the aerofoil. The elliptical shape that Prandtl wrote about has been investigated by Ackroyd here. Ackroyd shows how Shenstone adopted the optimum wing shape including the double ellipse of Prandtl which Heinkel had not done on the He 70. He then showed how the Prandtl shape (fig 6 in above link) maps directly onto Spitfire wing of fig 9.
Just for (serious) fun I have dropped the Prandtl shape-He176 shape-Spitfire shape roughly onto a powerpoint slide 1 below. Slide 2 shows how the Prandtl shape maps very well onto starboard wing of Spitfire as per Ackroyd's instructions. Slide 3 shows what happens when I try to do the same with the whole He176 wing to centreline on port wing and slide 4 is the same but cutting the wing at the fuselage intersection... I do not draw any conclusions from this other than Heinkel must have used different rules for his mapping.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Excellent research presentation about He 176

downersmith said:
Hello to the group and thank you for showing an interest in my research project - the Heinkel He 176.
My name is Douglas Downer-Smith and I would be happy to answer any queries specific to this aircraft. My research did cover a lot of ground from Luftwaffe archives in the Smithsonian, the German Document Centre in Duxford and the Heinkel Archives in Munich. The highlight was tracking down the son of the pilot and travelling to Switzerland to meet him. Beyond that I put together a lecture and gave this to audiences here in the UK and visiting Germany twice.
I feel that some of my work has given some insight into how this actually aircraft flew as opposed to some of the post war claims.
Thank you and regards
Douglas
It is always a privilege to welcome researchers of your caliber, and I congratulate you on your dedication and commitment to documenting the He 176. Welcome to the forum and we'll no doubt appreciate your contributions! Have you considered publishing a definitive book on the He 176? Given the amount of research you put into it, it would be nice to have the sum of your work published in a book under your name.
 

downersmith

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I have not written a book as such but my lecture notes are pretty much enough as the bare bones. David Myhra has in fact written a book titled the He 176 (available from Amazon in hard copy and Kindle) - he kindly sent me a copy for comment before publication. This book covers most of what I have anyway as we used some of the same reference sources which are the Luftwaffe microfilm records in the Smithsonian. What I have done is to quantify probable flight data based on current software and simulation and of course creating the most accurate drawing I could engineer. This would not have been possible without the missing link of the wind tunnel test result data which I located in the archives of Goettingen.
Although I have finished with this project as such, I have yet to decide how best to deal with the enormous amount of material I accumulated!
Douglas
 

Jemiba

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hesham said:
here is the early drawings to Heinkel He.176 ....
Stop, please ! ::)

As there even are English captions, I think, there isn't a great danger here of creating misunderstandings.
Nevertheless, we should make clear, that those drawings are showing, how the totally wrong depiction
of the He 176 emerged, that could (and still can !) be found in numerous publications.
There are no"early drawings", but a reconstruction based on the only known photo and a drawing of the
appearance during taxying tests, the other two just suppositions,.
 

Jemiba

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Maybe an interesting addition to the theme about the wrong depiction of the He 176:
In the May issue of the German magazine "Klassiker der Luftfahrt" the painting shown
below, made by Hans Liska (1907 - 1983) and owned by Erich Warsitz is shown.
It shows Erich Warsitz leaving the aircraft after his first flight and it was said to have
been painted in 1939, so often used as a proof for the shape of the cockpit section,
as being a contemporary painting.
Now, after some research, it became clear, that it actually was ordered by Erich Warsitz
himself in 1962 and so the artist without doubt used the then available (wrong) sources.
In the short article it is mentioned, too, that at least art connoisseurs should have been
able to point out, that the style is typical for the '50s, not '30s ...
An example, how much care is needed, even when faced with an "unquestioned" evidence !
 

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sienar

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Don't mean to bump an old thread but I found a rather interesting depiction of the 176.

This website is selling the photo in much higher resolution.
 

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Jemiba

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Judging the hairstyle, the photo shows Ernst Heinkel after the war and the He 176
in the well known, but wrong reconstruction. Principally no wonder then, that this
error could last so long, as it was somehow propagated by Heinkel himself !
 

Vladimir

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hesham said:
From Jet & Prop 1/1994,


here is the early drawings to Heinkel He.176 and built one.
Thanks, hesham!
 

Ifor

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Sorry to be a pain, I can't seem to find the right link to download Mr Smith's lecture.
 

blackkite

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Excellent!!! Thanks.
 

Ifor

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Thank you both much appreciated.
 

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Dear Tartle,
Fascinating sketches - comparing various elliptical wings.
Heinkel 112 and Spitfire used assymetric elliptical wings to straighten the main spar, the heaviest and most complicated wing component. But those compound curved leading edges are frightfully complex to build. Remember that early Spitfire production was slowed by difficulties with new stretch-forming tooling to make leading edges. Aerodynamic tolerances are also much tighter on leading edges ... if engineers want to maintain smooth airflow over most of the wing. In comparison, trailing edges are easier to build, with their shallower curves, to the point that most WW2 airplanes still had fabric-covered ailerons.

I suspect that Heinkel 176, Reggianne 2002, Seversky, Republic P-47, etc. all used straight leading edges to simplify production. Conically curved leading edges are much simpler to build ... with much simpler tooling. Even the last of the Spitfire line: Supermarine Spiteful had straight leading edges.

The current fashion - for competition sailplanes - is Schumann wings with elliptically curved leading edges and gently curved, slightly-swept railing edges. These crescent-curved wings are frightfully labour-intensive to build, even with CNCed female molds. Schumann trailing edges are almost straight.
 
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