Electric vehicle discussion

[T. A. Gardner]

The 'sales collapse' was because production of all models has been deliberately put in hiatus for something like 18 months. One can debate the wisdom of that decision but the reporting is either moronic or disingenuous.

Everything I've read on this says Jaguar decided with little or no market testing to go all-in on EV's and end gasoline powered vehicle manufacturing. They coupled that to a very weird and woke set of commercials for their new line which looked very un-Jaguar-like. The result was sales plummeted to nearly zero.

If Jaguar interviewed 2500 people and got a lot of positive reviews, I'd say they interviewed the wrong people or asked the wrong questions.

I know, the EV part aside, I wouldn't buy one on the design aesthetics alone. Those narrow height windows and the way the interior is set would, like GM products, make you feel like you're sitting in a bunker. I absolutely hate that. That's personal though.

 

[Brett Davidson]

Remember that correlation does not equal causation. Jaguar was rebranding, deliberately shedding its old model range and cliental, so they didn't want the old cars hanging around dealer forecourts like Banquo's ghost (indeed, they're shedding most of their dealers too).

For a standalone brand that would have been financial suicide, but they are tied to (at the time) very profitable Land/Range Rover and the lot is owned by Tata. Whether it actually works remains to be seen of course.

The right people are the ones with money (which doesn't include me) and customer clinics target a demographic of potential buyers, not a random assortment like political polls. Also, most market surveys these days take a leaf from anthropology/ethnography and use a version of the Likert scale - 0 for 'strongly disagree' and the other end (usually a 7, but apparently 10 for Jaguar's pollsters) for 'strongly agree.' The Top Gear article says Jaguar got a more M-shaped distribution rather than a classical bell curve. The right people for Jaguar aren't you and me.

There's a joke told about Range Rovers, which can apply to any car:

Q: What's the difference between a hedgehog and a Range Rover?
A: Hedgehogs have pricks on the outside.

No apology needed for being personal - that's the point, really. Personally I find it much more interesting or admirable in an abstract way while I also think it's cold, overscaled, and impractical. Stick me in an old Rover P5B Coupé and I'll be happy.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Having your sales from one month in a year go from about 2000 to 50 the next year is an unmitigated disaster for a corporation.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Bentley Torcal, by the way. When that launched last month, commenters contrasted it with the Ferrari Luce in that it's recognisably a Bentley and just happens to be electric.

And that's perfectly acceptable. Bentleys are supposed to be effortless and quiet, which electric really does well.

IMO the high end luxury cars should go full electric or at least plug-in hybrid. Rolls, Bentley, Cadillac, maybe add part of Buick to that list if anyone at Buick still remembers the 1980s Grand National and 1970s GSX. And if no-one at Buick still remembers the Spicy Buicks we make all Buicks electric.

But the Luce is just a really fast electric with the Prancing Horse badge on it. It doesn't look like even a Purosangre(sp?). Or have the glorious sounds Ferraris are all known for.

Having your sales from one month in a year go from about 2000 to 50 the next year is an unmitigated disaster for a corporation.

Depends on profit margin per car.

If you make 10,000 per car on the 2000/mo cars, and make more than 400k per car on the 50/mo cars, you're still making 20mil/month.

 

[Halcyon66]

Having your sales from one month in a year go from about 2000 to 50 the next year is an unmitigated disaster for a corporation.

Not really, you can record the loss against your profit for that year, you can also carry those tax losses forward to offset profits in future years. The main thing is to keep your cash flow.

The only reason various companies fail despite having large tax-loss assets on their books they run out of cash before they return to profitability

There is not one auto maker globally who has not been close to the edge over the years, also let's not forget auto makers do not normally make just one vehicle, they have many models and basically can loose on one win on others.

No one ever seems to grasp why (any) large corporations pay so little taxes................

Regards,

 

[Mike Pryce]

Fair play to them. They stuck to their concept vision.

If you want to turn heads, this'll do it.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Fair play to them. They stuck to their concept vision.

If you want to turn heads, this'll do it.

Definitely seeing the M-shaped "like" curve. Either really like it or really dislike it.

And I'm one of the dislikes.

 

[Mike Pryce]

Definitely seeing the M-shaped "like" curve. Either really like it or really dislike it.

And I'm one of the dislikes.

I think it's better than the leaked image from a couple of days ago. It looks coherent, if wild.

I do like that they stuck to their 'pre-war' concept proportions.

Also, this video has something that gets my vote - the 'impossible panel' - a section that CAD said could not be made, so they got someone out of retirement to make it work with pencil and paper:

View: https://youtu.be/2xwwGcS4Bjs?is=iB_S0SVtZYMkRD8-

 

[Scott Kenny]

I think it's better than the leaked image from a couple of days ago. It looks coherent, if wild.

I do like that they stuck to their 'pre-war' concept proportions.

I agree, and that's why I don't like it. Not a fan of 1930s design/proportions.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I 'get' the move upmarket, lower volume 'might' equate to higher profit but they have been dormant for so long and out of the public eye so, I can see this being the end for them.
Decades to make the brand and a year or two, to kill it.

 

[TinWing]

I think it's better than the leaked image from a couple of days ago. It looks coherent, if wild.

I do like that they stuck to their 'pre-war' concept proportions.

Also, this video has something that gets my vote - the 'impossible panel' - a section that CAD said could not be made, so they got someone out of retirement to make it work with pencil and paper:

View: https://youtu.be/2xwwGcS4Bjs?is=iB_S0SVtZYMkRD8-

It’s worth remembering that “pre-war” Jaguar was the Swallow Sidecar company, which branched out from rebodying Austin 7s to making cut price knockoffs of luxury cars. After the war, founder William Lyons rebranded to avoid the nasty name connotation and a nearly free factory was made available by the Ministry of Supply, but it was really the marketing genius of American car dealer Max Hoffman that allowed Jaguar to become a successful sports car importer in the United States. Meanwhile, Jaguar persisted with absolutely horrible upmarket sedans that tried to compete with Rolls Royce at 1/3 the price. The MarkX/420G was the last of the horrible line, which was even unpopular in America. The long hood, full sized luxury saloon car never worked for Jaguar. The compact Mark I/Mark II line did far better and that’s why Jaguar went to a single, smaller saloon lineup with the XJ6.

At this point, it’s pretty obvious that the doomed new electric Jaguar is selling for about 1/3 the price of a Rolls Royce, albeit without the interior space, utility, or ease of entry and exit. Considering that Bentley sales are floundering in America, the Tesla Model S is dead and the Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series/i7 have the worst resale value of any vehicles, it seems insane that JLR is even bothering to launch this car.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The all-electric car in the US is largely DOA because it doesn't work for the vast majority of people due to distance, needs, etc. In my own neighborhood, there are several people with Teslas on the driveway. They also have a large SUV and a pickup truck sitting beside it. The Tesla is pretty much their commuter car to go to work in and for nothing else. The SUV or pickup tows the boat or toy hauler (combo house trailer and ATV carrier) or the like on weekends. The SUV or pickup are the long-range vehicles you drive out of town.

EV's simply don't work for that purpose. I'd point to a drive I did about a year ago as an example. You can look at the route on Google Maps if you like. I left Las Cruces NM in the morning, then drove to Socorro NM. From there, I took old US 60 west through Datil then over to Springerville AZ and from there took the 60 and 260 through Show Low to Payson and then back to Phoenix. I drove that entire route in a single day arriving home in the early evening. There is nowhere to charge an EV on that route. Even if there was, it would have taken at least 2 days, possibly 3, to drive it with recharge times and all the mountain roads involved. An interesting site on that route is the Very Large Array radio telescope between Magdalena and Datil in NM.

Those things are about 10 stories tall. The whole array is in the middle of nowhere, and there is often cattle grazing nearby and you can even catch some rancher riding a horse herding them occasionally. It's kind of surreal.

 

[targetpractice]

A decade or so ago I was talking to Tom Matano (who co-designed the MX-5), he thought the most important thing about the design of the Tesla was that everyone knew you were driving a Tesla. I think it is a useful lens when thinking about just about any car these days.

 

[targetpractice]

I think the new Jag looks great, btw. Bravo to them for not being boring. We are already surrounded with incredibly dull design.

 

[Desertfox]

The all-electric car in the US is largely DOA because it doesn't work for the vast majority of people due to distance, needs, etc. In my own neighborhood, there are several people with Teslas on the driveway. They also have a large SUV and a pickup truck sitting beside it. The Tesla is pretty much their commuter car to go to work in and for nothing else. The SUV or pickup tows the boat or toy hauler (combo house trailer and ATV carrier) or the like on weekends. The SUV or pickup are the long-range vehicles you drive out of town.

EV's simply don't work for that purpose. I'd point to a drive I did about a year ago as an example. You can look at the route on Google Maps if you like. I left Las Cruces NM in the morning, then drove to Socorro NM. From there, I took old US 60 west through Datil then over to Springerville AZ and from there took the 60 and 260 through Show Low to Payson and then back to Phoenix. I drove that entire route in a single day arriving home in the early evening. There is nowhere to charge an EV on that route. Even if there was, it would have taken at least 2 days, possibly 3, to drive it with recharge times and all the mountain roads involved. An interesting site on that route is the Very Large Array radio telescope between Magdalena and Datil in NM.

Thats a very unusual drive experience. I doubt many people have that commute regularly. The thing is for like 90% of Americans an EV with say 300 mile range accomplishes over 90% of their yearly needs. I've done one road trip all year further than that and I made enough stops to have done it easily in an EV. With gas prices what they are... EVs would make a great alternative except we can't get anything small and cheap. I want an EV but while I can get an EV Hummer I cant get a VW ID2/Polo.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Thats a very unusual drive experience. I doubt many people have that commute regularly. The thing is for like 90% of Americans an EV with say 300 mile range accomplishes over 90% of their yearly needs. I've done one road trip all year further than that and I made enough stops to have done it easily in an EV. With gas prices what they are... EVs would make a great alternative except we can't get anything small and cheap. I want an EV but while I can get an EV Hummer I cant get a VW ID2/Polo.

That is a common driving experience for people going on vacation for the weekend in the Western US. You hook up the trailer (caravan in British) and drive 150 miles somewhere to a lake or the dunes, or whatever and stay there for 2 or 3 days then come home. You can't do that with an EV, even a Ford Lightning won't do it as the milage plummets pulling a trailer.

For example, the wife wants to "Go see the donkeys" in Oatman AZ. I want to go by the Nellie saloon near Parker.

That's the Nellie saloon. It's up about 20 miles of dirt road, cash only as they have no internet or cell phone service. There won't be an EV in the parking lot there.

Oatman is off of old Route 66 and the road getting there is a throwback to the 1950's.

Then there's the Williamson Valley Road coming back to complete the circle. It was important back in like 1914 and really hasn't seen much improvement since.

Dirt road with ancient bridges no services for 50 + miles in either direction from that bridge.

Yes, in Arizona you do that sort of thing for a weekend road trip. In the Western US driving the equivalent of London to Edinburgh is something people do just to go on a weekend vacation. Of course, the difference is you do it at 130 kph most of the time with virtually no stopping except for gas and grab something at the convenience mart.

 

[Desertfox]

Im from Arizona, I am very familiar with distances. Like I said, only like 10% of people are towing a trailer every weekend, the rest if they have one, less than 10% of the time. And if you have a trailer you probably have at least two vehicles. Nowadays its pure insanity to use say a diesel F350 as a daily commuter.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Im from Arizona, I am very familiar with distances. Like I said, only like 10% of people are towing a trailer every weekend, the rest if they have one, less than 10% of the time. And if you have a trailer you probably have at least two vehicles. Nowadays its pure insanity to use say a diesel F350 as a daily commuter.

I can agree with that. The EV is for the daily commute and nothing else so people who buy one tend to be in the upper end of the Middle Class. That makes it a very specialized vehicle rather than something everybody wants to own.