DF-21D

lucinator

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I saw this article on yahoo news and thought that it was poorly researched. My thoughts on this are that the DF-21D (which is a as yet un built, the d version anyway) which is a conventionally armed MRBM would never be a threat because it would never be used. Both the US and USSR/Russia, have experimented with the idea of conventionally armed ICBM/SLBM/MRBM(though the soviets later made some SRBM with near MRBM range that were, when conventionally deployed, solely conventional ie early models had nuke but by later models all were conventional.)'s but have never developed them because they on launch and in flight look just like nuclear armed missiles, thus there is a extremely high chance that China would never launch them because the US would (with high likelihood) retaliate as it it were a nuclear launch because for all intensive purposes it might be. Anyway that's my option and I'm posting this and the article because I know many people would disagree and I want to hear people's opinion.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100805/ap_on_re_as/as_china_us_carrier_killer
 
DF-21D is not an ICBM. China operates a multitude of conventionally armed ballistic missiles.
 
yes but it is still a longer range ballistic missile, and more important as of now exclusively armed with nuclear warheads so my point of possible mistaken identity remains valid
 
http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/df21.asp

"There have reports suggesting that some DongFeng 21 MRBMs have been re-fitted with conventional warheads"

The DF-21C is also conventionally armed.
 
The concern with the Dong Feng 21D is that it will be a high hypersonic anti-ship ballistic missile with a range of up to 3,000 km (1,900 mi). When deployed it would be the world's first missile system capable of targeting a moving aircraft carrier battle group from long-range, land-based mobile launchers and penetrating its defenses. Alarmist news stories are being written that the missile could be used to threaten United States sea power in any potential conflict with North Korea or a potential conflict with the People's Republic of China over Taiwan. The system might also be used to deny United States warships safe passage through international waters near China's 11,200-mile (18,000-kilometer) -long coastline.

Sources:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/05/dong-feng-21d-chinese-mis_n_672166.html
 
What does the Puffington Post recommend? Retreating to San Fransico and cowering in terror?
 
sferrin said:
What does the Puffington Post recommend? Retreating to San Fransico and cowering in terror?

No, thanks for making this a topic for the Bar now sferrin. :mad: It was just the easiest source to quote the details of the DF-21D.

The reality is that the People's Republic of China is arming itself and is intent on becoming a military superpower. When the system is deployed, the United States will no longer enjoy unquestioned naval supremacy in the Yellow, East, and South China Seas. What implications does the DF-21D and other future weapon systems have on United States foreign policy? Might the threat of the DF-21D cause the United States pause when dealing with conflicts in the region? Might the United Sates back down if forces of the PRC cross the Formosa Strait and seize the Republic of China (Taiwan) which the PRC considers to be a renegade province? What happens when the People's Republic of China can challenge the United States militarily? What happens when the PRC becomes the world's dominant economic and military superpower?

These articles also fail to point out that India is arming itself and the systen could be used to target India's future aircraft carriers and surface ships.
 
Post Script: Does the United States have a ship defense system in development to deal with the threat of high hypersonic anti-ship missiles?
 
Triton said:
Thanks for making this a topic for the Bar now sferrin. :mad: It was just the easiest source to quote the details of the DF-21D.

Read the rest of the thread. It is more about the effects of a ballistic antiship missile in general than the DF-21D specifically.
 
Triton said:
PS Does the United States have a ship defense system in development to deal with the threat of high hypersonic anti-ship missiles?

SM-2 Block IV & SM-3. You may have heard of them. Or not.
 
sferrin said:
Triton said:
PS Does the United States have a ship defense system in development to deal with the threat of high hypersonic anti-ship missiles?

SM-2 Block IV & SM-3. You may have heard of them. Or not.

If the SM-2 Block IV & SM-3 can be used to defend against the DF-21D, why is Defense Secretary Robert Gates making such a big issue over the DF-21D and why are alarmist news stories being written about it? Is the program in danger of cancellation or budget cuts?

The Huffington Post also writes:

A pseudonymous article posted on Xinhuanet, website of China's official news agency, imagines the U.S. dispatching the George Washington to aid Taiwan against a Chinese attack.

The Chinese would respond with three salvos of DF 21D, the first of which would pierce the hull, start fires and shut down flight operations, the article says. The second would knock out its engines and be accompanied by air attacks. The third wave, the article says, would "send the George Washington to the bottom of the ocean."

Comments on the article were mostly positive.
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
Triton said:
PS Does the United States have a ship defense system in development to deal with the threat of high hypersonic anti-ship missiles?

SM-2 Block IV & SM-3. You may have heard of them. Or not.

If the SM-2 Block IV & SM-3 can be used to defend against the DF-21D, why is Defense Secretary Robert Gates making such a big issue over the DF-21D and why are alarmist news stories being written about it? Is the program in danger of cancellation or budget cuts?

Why shouldn't he make a big issue of it even if SM-Xs aren't in danger of cancellation? Should he just ignore it? No defense is perfect, and maybe this is the fire that needs to be lit to get laser-based defenses more attention.
 
sferrin said:
Why shouldn't he make a big issue of it even if SM-Xs aren't in danger of cancellation? Should he just ignore it? No defense is perfect, and maybe this is the fire that needs to be lit to get laser-based defenses more attention.

It just seems odd that there is a propaganda battle going on between Washington and Beijing about a possible military showdown between the United States and the People's Republic of China, political and military hostility, and yet the economies of the United States and the People's Republic of China are interdependent. The PRC holds $1.3 trillion in US Government debt and the PRC is poised to be world's biggest manufacturing by 2011.
 
I still think there could be confusion over whether the missile is armed conventionally or with a nuclear warhead. There is a reason longer range missiles with mirv's haven't been made conventional, the chance of a screw up during a tense situation could lead to a nuclear exchange, just look at how close we came to war during the Cuban missile crisis. Now imagine the Cubans had launched a conventionally armed version of their missiles at the US carriers off their coast in the blockade. There probably would have been nuclear exhange. And with Taiwan and Korea a Similar standoff could occur.

PS: the navy is working on a 100kw solid state laser that could be used at sea level but that is for another topic.
 
Seems like the SM-3 and continued development of directed energy weapons are looking more important than before.

Perhaps it was a mistake canceling CGN-X? A few of those with "big-ass lasers" could certainly help reduce the threat of this.
 
check this out
http://forden.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/2819/df-21-delta-some-early-thoughts#more-262
 
Or from Defensenews:

TAIPEI - China's new anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) will be deployed at the Second Artillery Corps' new missile base in Guangdong Province in southeastern China, if a new report issued by Washington-based Project 2049 Institute is correct.

On July 28, the state-run Xinhua News Agency reported the visit of local government officials to a new missile base in the northern Guangdong municipality of Shaoguan. The media report is the first to acknowledge the existence of the new missile base.
Related Topics

* Asia & Pacific Rim
* Air Warfare

The new 96166 Unit will be outfitted with Dong Feng 21C medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBM) and possibly the DF-21D ASBM, said Mark Stokes and Tiffany Ma in a new report "Second Artillery Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile Brigade Facilities Under Construction in Guangdong?" posted on Project 2049's website.

The DF-21C was introduced into active inventory in 2005 and is designed for land targets. Though the DF-21D ASBM is nearing the stage of low rate initial production, expected in 2011 or soon after, it is not likely to be deployed into active service until after lengthy testing of the prototype.

Though the province is already home to a Second Artillery short-range ballistic missile (SRBM) base in Meizhou (96169 Unit), the new base could "have unique capabilities that could complicate the strategic calculus in Asia, and the South China Sea in particular."

The ASBM has been dubbed the aircraft "carrier killer" by observers and is part of China's larger anti-access/area denial strategy designed to discourage the U.S. Navy from coming to the aid of Taiwan during a war. Now it appears China is using the same strategy to deter U.S. and other regional navies from operating in the South China Sea.

Though U.S. aircraft carrier groups have significant air defense capabilities, including SM-3 missiles, the threat ASBMs pose is a new one, said Stokes. No country has yet developed a reliable ASBM system and therefore there is reluctance among some analysts to dismiss the possibility China has developed the capability of locating and destroying a moving target at sea with a ballistic missile.

However, U.S. Pacific Commander Admiral Robert Willard told members of the U.S. House and Senate Armed Services Committee in March that China was nearing a test phase for an ASBM.

China has recently announced that the South China Sea is a "core interest" and now state-controlled media outlets are claiming the entire South China Sea as Chinese territory.

"Seems to me they are staying on policy by asserting their ownership of the South 'CHINA' Sea," said a former U.S. intelligence officer now based in Singapore. "They aren't going to deviate from that policy. They've got the patience until they own it."

The deployment of ASBMs near the South China Sea adds a new dimension to the problem regional powers and the U.S. are facing as China begins enforcing maritime claims.

The 1,700 km range DF-21D MRBM can hit most land targets in Vietnam as well as the northern Philippines, including Subic Bay, with little difficulty.

The 1,500-2,000 km range DF-21D ASBM should be able to cover the Spratly Islands at 1,800 km. This would include roughly seventy percent of the South China Sea, if the maximum range of 2,000 km is confirmed.

Additionally, the DF-21C and D will easily handle land targets on Taiwan and naval targets beyond the island with no difficulty. The eastern coast of Taiwan is roughly 800 km from the base. China already has 1,300 DF-11/15 SRBMs aimed at Taiwan and an unknown number of cruise missiles.

During China's 60th anniversary parade in Beijing in October 2009, the military displayed a variety of mobile missile systems, including the DF-11A and DF15B SRBM, DF-21C MRBM and DF31A intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM). The parade also displayed the DH-10 land-attack cruise missile.

The DF-31A is China's first road mobile ICBM capable of hitting Washington. Before this missile, China relied on aging silo-based DF-5 ICBMs for use as nuclear counterstrikes on the U.S.

As mobile missile systems, they will be difficult to locate and destroy during a war with the U.S. To add more difficulties for the U.S., the Shaoguan area is near tunneling projects through the Nanling Mountains that divide Guangdong and Hunan provinces.

"A Second Artillery engineering unit known to be responsible for tunneling work under the so-called 'Great Wall Project' has been in Shaoguan since as early as 2008," said the Project 2049 report.
 
Triton said:
It just seems odd that there is a propaganda battle going on between Washington and Beijing about a possible military showdown between the United States and the People's Republic of China

Not really. With the demise of the USSR, how else is the Pentagon supposed to justify its defense budget? Talking China up as the next big threat is pure politics.
 
SOC said:
Not really. With the demise of the USSR, how else is the Pentagon supposed to justify its defense budget? Talking China up as the next big threat is pure politics.

Well if it gets them the budget they need to actually procure new equipment, fine by me.
 
Triton said:
It just seems odd that there is a propaganda battle going on between Washington and Beijing about a possible military showdown between the United States and the People's Republic of China, political and military hostility, and yet the economies of the United States and the People's Republic of China are interdependent. The PRC holds $1.3 trillion in US Government debt and the PRC is poised to be world's biggest manufacturing by 2011.

On the other hand, the same argument of interdependency could be made for, say, the USSR and Nazi Germany's economies prior to their little disagreement in the Great Patriotic War.
 
http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2013/01/24/did-china-test-its-carrier-killer/

http://blogs.defensenews.com/intercepts/2013/01/china-tests-carrier-killer-df-21d-missile-sinks-us-aircraft-carrier/


Should this topic be moved to Military?

Thanks.
 
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/28/18567021-south-china-sea-tension-mounts-near-filipino-shipwreck

It occurs to me that, if the PLAN are able to procure a naval version of the DF-21D, and are able to build something along the lines of the old Soviet Project 1080, then even backing up the Philippines could become difficult for the US.

On a side note, was the BRP Sierra Madre formally decommissioned before becoming a static outpost, or is she technically serving as a Stone frigate?
 
China set to parade its ‘carrier-killer’ missile through Beijing (ft.com, registration may be required)

Alternate promotional link that may or may not work without registration.

A weapon so secret China would not reveal it for years will make its first public appearance in a military parade on Thursday, Chinese defence experts say.

The so-called “carrier-killer” missile that threatens to reshape the balance of power in the western Pacific is set to wheel through the centre of Beijing along with 12,000 troops and 500 tanks and other vehicles as China marks the 70th anniversary of the end of the second world war.

The Dongfeng (East wind) 21D missile has been the subject of much speculation after a stray mention last week in a Communist party newspaper ignited excitement among China defence watchers.

However, Richard Fisher, a missile expert at the US-based International Assessment and Strategy Center, said it would be impossible to tell for sure whether the DF-21D had made an appearance because it is concealed in a launch tube indistinguishable from other missiles in DF-21 family.
 
It's amusing how the boogie-man keeps rearing it's scary face yet has never actually demonstrated the ability to live up to all the talk. Not even once.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar42im9x-zU

Of note is what it doesn't do. Still, even just as a psychological or land attack missile it's something to be wary of. Interesting how everbody and their dog seems to be deploying many different types of mobile ballistic missiles, but if the US even talks about doing so it's "destabilizing".
 

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