De Marçay Aircraft

[Apophenia]

Aircraft and Baron Edmond de Marçay

This is more a tangle ball of yarn than a designations list. Some sources describe Edmond de Marçay as an aeronautical genius, others as an enthusiast with a pile of money. De Marçay did go through a string of partner engineers.

The first was a Dutchman, J. Kluijtmans (variously misspelled as 'Kluytmann', 'Kluytmans', or 'Kluytemans'). In 1906, Kluijtmans had designed the first airship in the Netherlands but this project had faltered due to lack of interest and financial resources. De Marçay was able to solve both problems. Together, they designed a radical dirigible (tested as a scaled-down airship built by Paul Leprince). Kluitjtmans went on to design heavier-than-air machines on his own but, AFAIK, no fixed-wing aircraft for de Marçay.

The first de Marçay heavier-than-air aircraft was designed with Emile Moonen. The 1911 de Marçay-Moonen monoplane was the first to feature folding wings for transport and storage. Together, de Marçay and Moonen had filed UK Patent 18,661 "Improvements in and relating to Aeroplanes and other Machines" in Oct 1909, describing the folding wings.
In 1912, Edmond de Marcay and Emile Moonen also proposed an oblique wing design for the first time. [1] "The idea was to vary sweep of oblique wings for landing in sideslip." [2]

[1] Hirschberg, M., D. Hart, and T. Beutner, A Summary of a Half-Century of Oblique Wing Research, 45th AIAA Aerospace Sciences Meeting and Exhibit, AIAA Paper 2007-150, Jan. 2007.

[2] "Conceptual Assessment of an Oblique Flying Wing Aircraft including Controls and Trim Characteristics", Ryan W. Plumley (Masters thesis), 2008, pg.3

From 1916-to-1918, Anonyme d'Etudes et de Construction Aéronautique Edmond de Marçay in Bordeaux built 400 x Spad VII C1s but there is no sign of special designations applied.

Later designs are assigned exclusively to de Marçay. But, in L'Aeronautique 166, mention is made of a M. Botalli associated with the engineering of a monoplane tourer designed by de Marçay (presumably the de Marçay T-2). And a long-term association between de Marçay and Botalli is implied.
http://archive.org/stream/la02b9eronautiqu04pari/la02b9eronautiqu04pari_djvu.txt

Établissements d'Edmond de Marçay

It is not clear to me what company name (if any) de Marçay's early aviation efforts fell under. Later, the Construction Aéronautique de Marçay was formed in Bordeaux (or, more formally, the Société Anonyme d'Etudes et de Construction Aéronautiques Edmond De Marçay -- shortened to S.A.E.C.A de Marçay or Construction Aéronautique Edmond De Marçay). In web searches, the Établissements Edmond de Marçay & Cie (Paris) will pop up. This was an unrelated de Marçay firm which made Anzani-powered Cyclecars from 1920-to-1923.

De Marçay Aircraft Designations

The earliest de Marçay aircraft are simply described (without real suggestive of a formal naming). Examples are the de Marçay-Kluytmans Dirigeable (aka dirigeable Kluytmans de Marçay) or Monoplan de Marçay-Moonen. As these early designs were built in very small numbers, perhaps it was thought that no name or designation was needed.

An exception was the 1912 de Marçay-Moonen L'Abeille ('Bee') ... although 'abeille' may also have been an early useage for light aircraft akin to 'avionnette'.

After WWI, de Marçay types were given numbers. Only four numbers are known ('3' is missing) but there is a numeral repetition with the 1919 de Marçay 2 C1 sesquiplane fighter and the 1920 de Marçay T-2 monoplane tourer.

I have also seen the de Marçay 2 C1 fighter described as the 'Type C'. I assume this to be a generic term -- 'C' being for 'Chasse'.

At this stage, I run out of de Marçay projects. So, was de Marçay an enthusiast financier. Or was he an amateur aircraft designer in need of engineering assistance? Can anyone help untangle the naming/designation mess? Can anyone add any other de Marçay aircraft designs?
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[Apophenia]

De Marçay Aircraft Names/Designations

De Marçay-Kluytmans Dirigeable - [Project] 1907 planned 2500 m3 airship*
-- * Paul Leprince-built testbed airship (below) was only 24 m long

De Marçay-Kluytmans Dirigeable - 1908 airship designed with J. Kluijtmans
- Dirigeable: Divided-body airship (with large-diameter prop in the gap)
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1917/1917%20-%201388.html
-- http://archive.org/stream/aeronautics12aero/aeronautics12aero_djvu.txt
-- http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/180/772/707_001.jpg

De Marçay-Moonen - 1911, folding-wing* monoplane**, 13.5 m span, x 2
- De Marçay-Moonen: 1911, 1 x 50 hp Gnome, span 13 m, fully fabric-covered
-- * Folding-wing arrangement being to the design of M. Henri Chazal
-- ** Immense horiz. tail surfaces might suggest a tandem wing design
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1912/1912%20-%200007.html
-- http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft28620.htm
- De Marçay-Moonen: 1912, with fabric-covering of fuselage deleted

De Marçay-Moonen L'Abeille - 1912 single-seat, high-wing monoplane
- L'Abeille: 1912, under const'n at Camp de Châlons, Châlons-sur-Marne
-- http://www.modelflight.regheath.com/earlybirds/images/1912MarcayMoonen.jpg

De Marçay-Moonen - 1912 2-seat monoplane tested at Villacoublay*
-- * Possibly refers to the 2nd 1911 de Marçay-Moonen monoplane [??]

De Marçay-Moonen - 1913 single-seat monoplane* floatplane** racer
- De Marçay-Moonen: 1 x 100 hp Anzani tractor, raced at Monaco as #18
-- * Of 'Bielovucic' type (a ref to Juan Bielovucic's Hanriot-Pagny?)
-- ** Twin main floats + tail float design, typical of the period
-- http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft28756.htm

De Marçay-Moonen - 1914 double-biplane canard, tractor prop in nose*
- Canard: possibly built for the Concours de Sécurité)
-- * A rear-mounted engine drove this prop via an extension shaft
-- http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft29358.htm

Anonyme d'Etudes et de Construction Aéronautique Edmond de Marçay

De Marçay 1 - [Project] 1918 single-seat sesquiplane fighter
- De Marçay 1 C1: Initial design powered by 290 hp Liberty L-8 V8
-- Note: 'Marçay C-1' (sic) prob. refers to the De Marçay 2 C1

De Marçay 2 - 1919 single-seat sesquiplane fighter, 300 hp HS 8Fb, span 9.25 m
- De Marçay 2 C1: aka Type C (or 'de Marçay 2 C-1')
-- http://www.aviafrance.com/de-marcay-2-aviation-france-330.htm

De Marçay T-2 - 1920 2-seat monoplane tourer, 1 x 60 hp rotary*, span 5.95 m
-- * L'Aeronautique 166 says 60 hp Gnome, Aviafrance says 60 hp Le Rhône
-- http://archive.org/stream/la02b9eronautiqu04pari/la02b9eronautiqu04pari_djvu.txt
-- http://www.aviafrance.com/de-marcay-t-2-aviation-france-7955.htm

De Marçay 3 - single-seat sesquiplane fighter, 1 x 300 hp Hispano-Suiza
- De Marçay 3: Construction begun but incomplete?
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15821.msg279598.html#msg279598

De Marçay 4 - 1923 single-seat parasol fighter, span 10 m, 1 x prototype
- De Marçay 4 C1: 1 x 300 hp HS 12Fb, crashed Villacoublay 29 May 1923

De Marçay 5 - 2-seat 'combat' and recce monoplane, with 1 x Lorraine*
-- ** Lorraine-Dietrich 370-400hp [?? 12D ??] or 450 hp [?? 12E ??]
- De Marçay 5: Construction begun but incomplete?

Undesignated Aircraft Designs Displayed at 1919 Paris Air Show

De Marçay Limousine biplane, 1 x 60 hp Le Rhône (with annular spinner)
- De Marçay 2-seat Limousine had a detachable coupé top (for Show only?)
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200047.html
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200048.html

De Marçay single-seat biplane tourer, monocoque fuselage
- De Marçay monocoque tourer: 1 x 60 hp Le Rhône (annular spinner)
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200047.html
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200048.html

De Marçay Passe-Partout single-seat biplane, 10 hp ABC air-cooled 2-cyl
- De Marçay Passe-Partout light a/c, 13' 1" span
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200065.html
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[hesham]

Excellent work my dear Apophenia,


and for Type 3,I have it,but where is it now?,I can't remember.

 

[Stargazer]

Apophenia, this forum (and especially this board) would not be quite the same without you... You're amazing!


Thank you so much for such quality research work... and a special extra thanks for minding the cedilla under the letter "c" in Marçay!!!

 

[Apophenia]

Wow, thanks guys!

... and a special extra thanks for minding the cedilla under the letter "c" in Marçay!!!

Çould anyone çonçeivably forget the çedilla? ;D

Hesham: Anything on the Type 3 would be most welcome ... I couldn't find a trace!

 

[c460]

Hi,
The aircraft by De Marçay were covered by Charles Claveau in Trait d'Union no.263, notably describing two projects:
- Type 3, single-seat sesquiplane fighter with Hispano-Suiza 300hp engine, apparently unfinished
- Type 5, two-seat "combat" and reconnaissance monoplane, with Lorraine 370/400hp or 450hp engine, unfinished too

De Marçay single-seat biplane fighter, monocoque fuselage
- De Marçay monocoque fighter: 1 x 60 hp Le Rhône (annular spinner)
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200047.html
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1920/1920%20-%200048.html

About this aircraft, it was certainly not a fighter, more a tourism light aircraft.

 

[Apophenia]

Excellent! Many thanks for the additions and corrections, c460

 

[hesham]

From Flight 1967.

 

[dan_inbox]

Contrary to the cheap slander in the caption, this Marçay-Moonen plane was not swing-wing, but folding-wing.
Apparently the British press wasn't much better then than now...

 

[Arjen]

@dan_inbox That's probably from Uncle Roger / Roger Bacon, the one responsible for Flight's humourous page Straight And Level. And Flight's Christmas Quiz.
"Still a little late on the round out, Hoskins"
@hesham Can you provide the whole page, for context?

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Arjen.

 

[Arjen]

Love the Customs Officer.

 

[dan_inbox]

Thank you both. Indeed the context changes it.
Still not my cup of tea, but feeble humour rather than cheap slander.

 

[Stargazer]

De Marçay-Moonen - 1911, folding-wing* monoplane**, 13.5 m span, x 2
- De Marçay-Moonen: 1911, 1 x 50 hp Gnome, span 13 m, fully fabric-covered
-- * Folding-wing arrangement being to the design of M. Henri Chazal
-- ** Immense horiz. tail surfaces might suggest a tandem wing design
- De Marçay-Moonen: 1912, with fabric-covering of fuselage deleted

De Marçay-Moonen L'Abeille - 1912 single-seat, high-wing monoplane
- L'Abeille: 1912, under const'n at Camp de Châlons, Châlons-sur-Marne

It would seem that these two aircraft were in fact one and the same type, the latter possibly the one "with fabric-covering of fuselage deleted" (link is dead so I couldn't find the photo that was linked, which is why I now systematically save and share instead of linking).
"L'Abeille" was the folding wing aircraft exhibited at the Paris 1911 Salon, which caused quite a stir with the public and was heavily commented upon in specialized press at the time.

 

[Stargazer]

Anything on the Type 3 would be most welcome ... I couldn't find a trace!

De Marçay Type 3 (from Le Trait d'Union):

 

[hesham]

From, French Aeroplanes Before the Great War

 

[Stargazer]

The De Marçay "Passe-Partout" was one of three lightplane types presented by French baron Edmond de Marçay at the Paris Salon de la Locomotion Aérienne in Paris' Grand Palais in December 1919, and was by far the one that caused the greatest sensation. The diminutive biplane, which was heralded as "The world's smallest airplane", measured a mere 3.80 meters in length, with a wingspan of only 4 meters. Weighing no more than 100 kilos, it was powered by a 10 hp A.B.C. motorbike engine; and although perceived largely as a civilian sports type, it was also envisaged as a possible military liaison type, able to land about anywhere and to deliver urgent documents at 100-110 kms per hour.

 

[Stargazer]

De Marçay's other two aircraft at the Dec. 1919 Paris Salon were the following:

• a single-seat biplane refered to only as a "monocoque" type;
• a tandem two-seat biplane with detachable canopy bay refered to as a "limousine" type.

Some sources give the latter as the T.2, which (if accurate) would not mean the Type 2 (since that was the 1918 C1 fighter), but probably "Tourism, 2-seater" (in which case the single-seater COULD be the T.1, but this is only guesswork).
The images below show that the Flight (UK) and Aviation (US) had a slightly different perception of these aircraft's lines.

 

[Stargazer]

In 1916, Edmond de Marçay established his first company, Établissements Edmond de Marçay, to contribute to the war effort. He set up production facilities avenue de Suffren, in Paris, in order to produce warplanes, and introduced innovative methods of production rationalization and organization, inspired by Taylorism. A second factory was soon set up in Bordeaux, with the help of De Marçay's three younger brothers. The factories produced considerable numbers of SPAD airframes in 1917-18, but De Marçay and his team, which comprised famed pilot Georges Lebeau, believed the SPAD design could be improved upon.
A first project, the Type 1 C1, was drafted, with a V-8 type Liberty 8 engine and sesquiplane wings, but with the end of the war, the project was cancelled. Soon after, however, De Marçay's technical team, headed by Georges Botali, used a SPAD XIII airframe and fitted it with a new set of sesquiplane wings to produce the one-off Type 2 C1, which flew in 1919.
The Type 2 used a 300 hp Hispano-Suiza 8Fb engine and was armed with two machine guns. The new fighter remained a sole prototype, and though never used as a fighter, it soon became famous for breaking the world speed record at 252 kms per hour, piloted by Lebeau.

 

[dan_inbox]

The De Marçay "Passe-Partout" was one of three lightplane types presented by French baron Edmond de Marçay at the Paris Salon de la Locomotion Aérienne in Paris' Grand Palais in December 1919, and was by far the one that caused the greatest sensation.

A good photo of Passe-Partout at the salon:

 

[Stargazer]

The Type 3 C1 fighter, also using the 300 hp Hispano-Suiza engine, was apparently started but not completed. Although it was also a sesquiplane, the top wing was not placed above the pilot, but was flush with the fuselage top, in the manner of several racers of the time.

The Type 4 C1 replaced it, and it was produced under De Marçay's newly-formed Société Anonyme d'Études et de Constructions Aéronautiques (S.A.E.C.A.) company, also based in Paris, specialized only in aviation — as opposed to De Marçay's previous company, Edmond de Marçay & Cie. founded in 1920, which also produced cars. The new fighter's main differences were the change to a monoplane configuration (bottom wings removed) as well as a total redesign of the tail fin. The engine was still a 300 hp Hispano, but now of the 12Fb type (12 cylinders), and the pilot was provided with a headrest. The thick 10-meter wing allowed for speeds of up to 270 kms/hour at an altitude of 4,000 meters, and a ceiling raised to 9,000 meters. The new fighter was sleek, fast, allowed for great visibility for the pilot, and despite its weight (1200 kgs) it boasted a desirable landing speed of only 60 kms/hour! But that performance came with a cost: the first prototype was lost on its initial test flight, killing Captain Albert Deullin on 29 May 1923. A second example was built, which incorporated a few changes and flew very succesffully.

The French authorities showed little interest, however, preferring to work with established names such as Nieuport, Bréguet and others, with little consideration for De Marçay's valuable wartime contribution. The S.A.E.C.A. had contacts in Algeria willing to secure a deal for ten Type 4 monoplanes at a coast of 1 million francs each, but no agreement was ever reached.

De Marçay's team had a final fighter design in the works, the Type 5 C1 with a more powerful 370 hp Lorraine-Dietrich engine, but it is not certain if a prototype was even started. I haven't been able to find a single drawing of it so far. Baron Edmond De Marçay stepped aside from the S.A.E.C.A. (which was renamed Lutétia - Société Anonyme d'Études et de Constructions Aéronautiques in 1925), and passed four years later — a man highly celebrated at the end of the Great War, but now sadly relegated to the vaults of history.

 

[hesham]

De Marçay Type 3 (from Le Trait d'Union):

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/little-known-french-projects-and-prototypes.15821/page-6#post-279598

 

[Stargazer]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/little-known-french-projects-and-prototypes.15821/page-6#post-279598

I know, but what's the point? That post is now useless, since we have everything about De Marçay regrouped in one place.
The way I understand it, you're trying to say: "Hey, I posted it first!" Well, this is not a race! If I can post a better version of a picture that's already elsewhere, I certainly do not care about that sort of childish considerations...
The "Various" kind of topics are only good for material that can be placed nowhere else, which is no longer the case. I strongly believe that such isolated posts in generic topics should be removed (or emptied, so as not to change the post numbering) when they can be replaced by more accurate and better documented dedicated topics elsewhere.