CRAIC CR929 (COMAC UAC joint venture)

Deino

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Russian, Chinese Companies Agree to Build Joint Long-Range Airliner
MOSCOW, May 20 (RIA Novosti) – The leaders of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation and the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China have signed an agreement to cooperate on the development of a new wide-body long-range passenger airliner, the Russian company said in a statement Tuesday.
“The combined efforts of COMAC and UNAC on the joint creation of a new series of long-range planes will bring cooperation between the two countries in the aircraft industry to a completely different level,” UNAC CEO Mikhail Pogosyan said, according to the statement.
The memorandum on cooperation was the result of two years of consultations between Russian and Chinese experts.
The new project will be one of the largest international collaborations in the aircraft industry, as well as in the hi-tech fields of both countries. The new plane is expected to eventually occupy a significant share of the international market.
A Russian delegation led by President Vladimir Putin arrived in China on Tuesday for an official visit that was expected to result in the signing of a large number of documents, including bilateral, intergovernmental, inter-departmental and corporate agreements.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140520/189969386/Russian-Chinese-Companies-Agree-to-Build-Joint-Long-Range.html
Or http://itar-tass.com/ekonomika/1198924


To admit I already got a lot of bashing today at other forums after I voiced some concerns or sceptics about the possible success of this project.

Does anyone have more information about it ?? I assume it will be at least a class above the MS-21/C919 and as such compete with the larger 767/777/A330/340 ... or even 787/777/A350 ??

Thanks in advance,
Deino
 

Deino

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Nothing ... no more information ??

From what I got so far it is said to be planned for 400/390 people total however if that is in one class configuration or three class layout I don't know.

Anyway IMO too much of a Memorandum of Understanding ...

Deino
 

Reaper

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From what I heard, are Russian designers supporting the development of the new Chinese fighter aircraft like J-20, J-31. So they have the knowledge, the Chinese have the money and both have the motivation to set a foot in the airliner market. You could see that Sukhoi needed Western systems support for the Superjet, but I dont see why they wont be able to develop a LR airliner. I guess it wont have the same quality as Western airliner, but since the market focus is a little bit different anyway. Why not?
 

Deino

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To admit even if most points of concern on the one side and on the other also all pros were mentioned, I'm actually surprised that only so few information was revealed so far, which gives that bird some kind of fishy taste IMO.

So far no timeline, no specifications, not even an artist impression ... simply nothing more than the reports above. Nothing ! ???

Deino
 

Deino

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A bit new information ...

There's recently been two interviews shedding a bit of light on the project that was allegedly in the works.

http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2014/11/05/313213.html
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/757550

Relevant bits are these:

"Regarding the wide-body long-range aircraft, the situation is also moving. Its design project has been completed. We are now calculating what China’s demand for these planes is, what our domestic demand is."

"And then, we now have a new project, we are working with Chinese colleagues: design of aircraft with a seating capacity of 250 to 300 seats, wide-body long-haul aircraft..."

And also via http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Regional/2014/11/07/China-looking-to-develop-big-passenger-plane/

China looking to develop big passenger plane

SHANGHAI, Nov 07, 2014 (AFP) - China is seeking suppliers to develop its own wide-body passenger plane over the next decade, industry executives told AFP, expanding its ambitions and rivalry with Boeing and Airbus.

The proposed aircraft - tentatively called the C929 - would be state-backed Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China (COMAC)'s largest, according to suppliers that have held discussions with the firm.

It would be a substantial advance on the smaller 158-168 seat narrow-body C919 it is currently developing and the 78-90 seat ARJ21 regional jet, which is undergoing test flights. The goal is for the C929 - which could carry several hundred passengers at a time on journeys across Asia - to take flight after 2020, possibly in 2023.

COMAC's ambitions will be on parade at China's premier airshow, which opens Tuesday in the southern city of Zhuhai, with a huge stand highlighting the C919 and a flying display by a prototype ARJ21.

The technological challenges for China to build its own passenger plane are formidable, with some comparing them to the difficulty of sending a mission to the moon. But the government considers developing a passenger aircraft industry a national priority that would vault it into an elite club of just a handful of nations. At the same time Russia has drawn closer to its ally China in the face of Western sanctions over Ukraine and following two years of discussions, the two countries signed an agreement in May to develop what Chinese state media call the "big plane".

COMAC's strategic partner for the C929 is Russia's United Aircraft Corp., created in 2006 when Moscow combined the assets of the country's largest state-owned aircraft manufacturers, which have decades of experience. "Russia and China have been working together, figuring out things, now they're ready to start talking and getting ideas from suppliers," said Briand Greer, president of aerospace for Asia-Pacific for US firm Honeywell, which already provides components and systems for both the C919 and ARJ21.

COMAC is floating ideas about the design of the plane ahead of making formal information requests to prepare a tendering process, industry sources said. "We have been talking about this new project, the 929," said another supplier to the C919, who declined to be named. "They have started with design of the plane. They are talking beyond 2020 (for the launch)," he said.

One possibility for the wide-body - which has two passenger aisles - is a plane capable of flying within Asia for journeys of up to around five hours, industry officials said, but not for lengthy intercontinental flights of 12 to 14 hours. Such a concept would compete with the planned regional version of the Airbus A330, they said, which will enter service early next year. Planes in the A330 family hold 200-400 passengers. Boeing's wide-body offerings include its 767 and 787.

COMAC did not respond to requests for comment by AFP. China has dreamed of building its own civil aircraft since the 1970s when Jiang Qing, Mao Zedong's wife and a member of the notorious "Gang of Four", personally backed the attempt to develop the Y-10. Only three of the lumbering planes were ever built. But with its deep pockets China can now tap foreign companies, some of them already suppliers to Boeing and Airbus. The C919, which has a range of up to 5,555 kilometres (3,444 miles), is scheduled to make its first test flight at the end of next year, with deliveries planned for 2018, according to state media, although some doubt the company will meet the target. "It's a national agenda, it's going to happen," Greer said of the C919. "Timing - we'll see."

Its engines are made by CFM International, a venture between France's Safran group and US industrial giant General Electric (GE). COMAC has 400 orders for the C919, most from domestic customers with the exception of GE Capital Aviation Services - a subsidiary of GE. The ARJ21 regional jet claims 253 orders but the project is years behind schedule, with deliveries originally due in 2009. COMAC plans to certify the ARJ with China's own civil aviation authority before year-end but approval from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is necessary before it can fly in most countries.

The C919 has just started being assembled at a sprawling complex next to Shanghai's Pudong Airport, where workers in blue uniforms fit together pieces of the fuselage, industry officials and media reports say. Elsewhere on the vast tract of land, COMAC planners have already reserved space for a yet-unbuilt factory to house the C929.
 

FighterJock

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Will the new airliner be in the A-350 class or be a Sino-Russian A-380?
 

totoro

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I would expect they are counting on domestic markets primarely. If so, it could dictate a plane somewhat similar in concept to 787-3, optimized for capacity rather than for range. At least for chinese subvariant. Russian subvariant might want to trade some capacity for a 7000 km range or something like it.

But in reality, the whole project is just a computer design at the moment. We'll have to wait a year or two for some official annoucement, it seems.
 

sferrin

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What do they plan to do for engines? I don't see their first outing seriously competing with the 787 or A350. Then again, maybe all they need is a home grown option that they can tell the domestic carriers they HAVE to buy.
 

Moose

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Triton said:
We've been hearing about the airlines wanting a new Boeing 757.
certainly not from Russia or China they aren't.
 

totoro

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It is way too early to know what engines are in store, probably even they don't know for sure. My bet would be something based on future PD18 family of russian engines, themselves based on current PD14 family of fairly modern turbofans. PD18 was said to go up to some 195 kn of thrust. That in itself wouldn't be equal to smallest 767, but it wouldn't be that far off either. some extra 25 or so kn would be needed per engine to match the thrust of 767-200/300. In 8-10 years time a bit more powerful engine variant may be available, or the plane itself may be sufficiently lighter that even 200 kn engines can pull it off, which is also plausible since 767 is going to be literally 40 years older tech when this new airliners flies.

In any case, i do believe this new airliner will be much, much closer to 767 in size/class rather than any other current airliner.
 

Deino

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via "Austin" at the Key-Forum:

Some official info on Chinese-Russian Wide Body Jet

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/759157

“We intend to elaborate this project and economic issues related to its implementation soon. Within the next 9-10 years this program should enter the market,” According to him, the flight tests of the plane with a cruising range of 12,000 kilometers and capacity of up to 300 passengers are to be launched in early 2020.

And Engine would be in 30 t class

http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2014/11/11/314107.html

"We Chinese colleagues are actively discussing the creation of a joint project of the engine capacity from 30 tons and up to wide-haul aircraft," - he said.
 

Triton

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Perhaps China has acquired foreign engine technology through their espionage efforts and/or reverse engineering. They're bold enough to manufacture counterfeit products.
 

sferrin

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Triton said:
Perhaps China has acquired foreign engine technology through their espionage efforts and/or reverse engineering. They're bold enough to manufacture counterfeit products.

They do it all the time. One only needs to look at all the new weapons they're rolling out almost daily.
 

totoro

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So a new engine after all. 30 tons (and up) seems way too much for it to be a new variant of current russian engines under development. Since there's been a lot of cooperation between China and Russia lately, i do believe it's likely the new engine (just as the new plane alotgether) is a joint development, so there might not be an issue of copying there.

Still, developing both a whole new plane and a whole new engine in the mentioned timeframe? And it would be fairly new tech for both sides? I somehow am not sure it's realistic that such a plane/engine will enter the market comercially by 2024. A few years later, sure. But 10 years from now seems a bit overoptimistic.

Cited figures suggest an a330 sized airliner of similar specifications.
 

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It might end up being a variant of the new Russian bomber engine (think F101 -> CFM-56). That idea was already mooted some time ago as the NK-65.
 

totoro

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i guess anything is possible but it would have to be quite a jump... going from 140 kn to 300-350 kn just with higher bypass ratio and newer tech.
 

Trident

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Not a problem - the CFM-56C (A340) exceeds the *afterburning* thrust of the F101, so going from 25 tons to 30 should be entirely feasible.
 

Triton

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"UAC Wants Government Money For Russo-Chinese Widebody"
Feb 23, 2015 Maxim Pyadushkin Aviation Daily

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/uac-wants-government-money-russo-chinese-widebody

In spite of earlier calls to eliminate state financing, Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will seek government funding for the development of the new widebody aircraft it plans to build in cooperation with Chinese civil aircraft manufacturer Comac.

“We will raise the issue of financing [for this program],” UAC President Yury Slyusar said last week.

The program was officially announced in May 2014 and calls for the development of a 250-280 seat aircraft. Development costs were estimated to reach $13 billion in late 2014. The partners will share the expenses, but this figure will be revised due to the weakening ruble. “We are now optimizing [the program’s budget]. We will need less than asked [initially],” Slyusar explained.

Slyusar made his statement a week after the Ministry of Industry and Trade suggested canceling the government’s financing of the widebody-aircraft development in 2015. The federal program for the development of commercial aircraft in Russia in 2002-2015 initially suggested that the government would allocate 1.1 billion rubles ($17.2 million) for the aircraft’s preliminary and detailed design in 2015.

The project’s total 2015 budget was estimated at 3.6 billion rubles, as it also included 2.5 billion rubles from non-budgetary sources. The ministry now suggests the program’s budget should be limited to 50 million rubles from non-budgetary sources only. The suggested cuts are part of the general effort to reduce the government expenses due to the economic difficulties Russia faces at the moment.

The federal program for the development of commercial aircraft in Russia in 2002-2015 is a major tool for the government to subsidize the aircraft industry. For example, as part of the program the government plans to allocate 15 billion rubles this year to UAC to assemble the first prototypes of the MS-21 narrowbody airliner and start testing.
 

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Triton

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Is C929 the official designation of this joint project between COMAC and UAC?

"China And Russia Join Forces To Build New Jumbo Jet"

A challenger appears
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer Posted February 13, 2015

Source:
http://us.newscodex.com/china-and-russia-join-forces-to-build-new-jumbo-jet-4efaf01ea42f483f901cb277c720c2da

China and Russia are taking their high tech relationship to the next level, as the preliminary design for their jumbo jet will be completed by July. The C929 will be China's ever largest civilian aircraft, and Russia's largest post-Cold War jetliner.
China COMAC C919 airliner

In January 2015, the C919 prototype has its wings attached to the fuselage. The C919 is China's largest civilian aircraft, with its first flight planned in 2016. COMAC hopes that experience from developing the C919 will help in developing the larger "C929" with Russia.

The United Aircraft Corporation (UAV) and China's COMAC civilian aviation firm have been collaborating since early 2014 to build a wide body jetliner capable of seating 250 to 280 passengers in a 3-class configuration, with a range of 12,000km. While this aircraft has not yet been named, its Chinese designation is likely to be C929 (COMAC's 190 passenger C919 is currently China's largest civil aircraft project).

The MS-21, like the Airbus 320, Boeing 737 and Comac C919, is a medium sized narrow-body jetliner capable of carrying up to 190 passengers. The MS-21 is expected to enter service around 2017 or 2018.

Russia has high hopes for the C929, as evidenced by the string of Russian defense and industry ministers praising the jet to the press. UAC President Yuri Slyusar said that the C929 will cost $13 billion to develop, with a first flight between 2021 and 2022. Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov says that Chinese and Russian engineers will develop the prototype blueprints between 2016 and 2018, with a service entry date of 2025. Slyusar notes that UAC will build the composite wing and tail of the C929, while China will handle fuselage construction. To reduce costs and improve reliability, the initial C929 is likely to use Western engines from Pratt & Whitney, General Electric or Rolls Royce, though Russia's United Engine Corporation hopes to power some C929 by 2030. Chinese technologies would likely include the use of advanced manufacturing techniques like 3D printing, not to mention funding.

This is the first official concept art of the new Sino-Russian jumbo jet, which can seat up to 280 passengers (stretched versions can probably carry 350 passengers).
 

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"Russo-Chinese Widebody Concept Design Underway"
Full-scale development of a Russo-Chinese widebody may begin next year
Feb 11, 2015 Maxim Pyadushkin and Bradley Perrett Aviation Week & Space Technology

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/russo-chinese-widebody-concept-design-underway

Russia’s United Aircraft Corp. (UAC) and China’s Comac have begun preliminary design of their proposed joint 250-280-seat widebody airliner, which Moscow now expects to enter service in 2025. This phase should be completed by July, says UAC President Yury Slyusar, while Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov suggests that full-scale development will begin next year.

“We have the money for this,” Manturov says, referring to the preliminary design. As for the next design stage, more funding will be needed, and this would fall in the 2016-18 budget cycle, according to an Interfax-AVN news agency report on the press conference.

By “next design stage,” Manturov appears to be referring to detail design. That implies that a nine-year program for full-scale development will be launched in 2016. Entry into service in 2025 would be at the end of the target period previously set as 2023-25. China and Russia each allowed eight years for development of their narrowbody airliners, the C919 and MS-21, respectively, and each now expects that it will take 10 years to bring those aircraft to fruition.

Last November Slyusar, who was then Russia’s deputy industry and trade minister, said that the aircraft would make its first flight in 2021-22. Development cost is now estimated at $13 billion before the ruble’s recent fall in value, he says. That compares with a figure of $7-8 billion he mentioned in November. The cheaper ruble should reduce the U.S.-dollar cost of the program, however; the two sides are probably budgeting in dollars because that is the currency customers and suppliers will use.

The structure of the proposed Russo-Chinese widebody is likely to have a large composite content. Credit: United Aircraft Corp.

UAC and Comac, both state-owned, signed a memorandum on cooperation for the program in May 2014. A joint feasibility study was completed in autumn 2014 with positive results, says a UAC official.

Russian industry is keen to work with the Chinese since Beijing can afford to help fund the program. The joint widebody program has been met with great support from the Russian government, but a wholly Russian effort may struggle for funding. Comac is far less keen about the endeavor, say industry officials in China, because the Chinese industry would likely receive government backing for independent development of a widebody. One has been planned for several years under the name C929.

UAC is likely to develop and build the composite wing and fin for the widebody while Comac handles the fuselage, says Slyusar. Although that blueprint assigns the most difficult part of the airframe to Russia, the UAC president points out that not all of the technology is coming from his side. “China is now not only a market and investor but is also providing some expertise in technologies needed for our joint project,” he says.

Still, UAC has more experience in major composite structures than the Chinese industry has, although Avic, Comac’s airframe supplier, owns Austrian composites specialist FACC. UAC subsidiary Aerocomposit has developed the carbon-fiber wing for the MS-21 in cooperation with FACC and Diamond Aircraft, another Austrian company. That wing completed fatigue testing at the government aeronautical engineering institute TsAGI near Moscow last spring. Comac considered developing a composite wing for the C919, but ultimately decided against it.

The MS-21 wing has since been sent to TsAGI for static testing. Program managers for the widebody are looking at their options in acquiring tooling that needs to be ordered early, says an industry official in the U.S. Their requirements are consistent with the large-scale use of composites that Slyusar describes.

The UAC president hopes that most of the work on the aircraft will be done in Russia. That point should be settled soon, since detailed work distribution will be defined during the current, preliminary design phase. UAC estimates that the world will need 8,000 widebody airlines through 2033, with 1,000 bought by Chinese airlines.

Comac’s studies have pointed to a gap in the market for a widebody with the moderate range of 7,400 km (4,000 nm), but in November Mikhail Pogosyan, who was then president of UAC, said the joint airliner would have a range of up to 12,000 km and seat 250-300 passengers. Slyusar has refined that to 250-280 seats in the basic version, which could later be lengthened or shortened.

The intended engine for the type has not been mentioned, but a competitive widebody would almost certainly need a Western powerplant in its initial versions. Similarly, Western onboard systems would normally be expected.

Tensions between Russia and the West over the past year must increase the desire of Moscow, if not Beijing, to equip the aircraft as far as possible with systems from Russian and Chinese factories. The Chinese are probably far from building an industry capable of producing robust, efficient aircraft systems able to meet globally recognized certification standards, but Russian industry could develop some equipment.

Russia’s United Engine Corp. (UEC) says it discussed possible joint development of a high-thrust engine for the new widebody with Avic during Airshow China at Zhuhai last November. The parties have had “serious negotiations,” a UEC representative tells Aviation Week. The parameters of the joint engine should be defined in the first quarter of this year. It would be a Phase 2 powerplant for the aircraft, which would probably go into service with a Western engine.

Avic Commercial Aircraft Engines has been working on the preliminary design of a turbofan for the widebody, with the aim of entry into service between 2025 and 2030.

The Chinese have had far less experience in developing transport aircraft than the Russians, but they trail only slightly in producing aircraft with globally recognized airworthiness certification. UAC’s Sukhoi Superjet 100 regional jet is the first such Russian aircraft; it entered service in 2011 and has certification endorsed by the European Aviation Safety Agency. Comac’s ARJ21, a similarly sized aircraft, was declared airworthy in December after a certification program monitored by the FAA.
 

flateric

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Oh, ups
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/uac-wants-government-money-russo-chinese-widebody
 

Trident

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Triton said:
UAC’s Sukhoi Superjet 100 regional jet is the first such Russian aircraft; it entered service in 2011 and has certification endorsed by the European Aviation Safety Agency.


Second actually :) The Il-96T was granted FAA certification in June 1999, although the variant never entered production due to the economic turmoil in Russia at the time (big lost opportunity, IMHO). You can actually find the TCDS online if you search around a bit. Possibly the experience did help smooth the path for the Superjet though, the contrast with the drawn-out disaster that was the ARJ21 certification campaign is certainly marked.
 

Triton

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Rename topic to "CRAIC CR929". CRAIC for China-Russia Commercial Aircraft International Corporation, a joint-venture between Chinese Comac and Russian United Aircraft Corporation (UAC).
 

fightingirish

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Just noticed, that the word "craic" is the Irish Gaelic term for fun, gossip, entertainment and enjoyable conversation between friends. ;D ::) B)
 

Triton

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Russia, China partner for PD-35 ultra-high duty bypass turbofan engine

Published on Dec 15, 2017

Russia’s Rostec State Corporation will jointly develop the PD-35 aircraft engine with China. Confirmed at the Gulf Defense & Aerospace 2017 exhibition in Kuwait City, the announcement also provided details on the facilities tasked with development of the engine.

https://youtu.be/iWvQ9jc4dZ0
 

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