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Covid-19 Vaccine - Where, How & Costs

DWG

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It's important to remember that every drug has side-effects, and that even over-the-counter medications like aspirin can have lethal side-effects. I just checked out the safety leaflet for the medication I'm on, as it lives on the desk in front of me, and even with a page and a half long list of side-effects (fairly typical in my experience), it doesn't get out to the 1 in 250,000 cited for AZ today. Within that list you've got depression and anxiety at 1 in 10, mood swings and hallucinations at 1 in 100, and angina and difficulty breathing at 1 in 1000, yet it's happily in - relatively - common use. So a 1 in 250,000 risk factor isn't actually too atypical.

Unfortunately the public are bad at risk analysis, and no doubt the antivaxxers will be trying to make more of this than its worth.
 

edwest

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Was that necessary? Check with your health care provider. Always.

If the public is confused, they should contact their health care provider or a doctor or nurse if without one.
 

Sundog

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After my second shot, last Thursday, my arm was sore for two days and I had a low grade fever and headache. I also felt really tired. I didn't need to take Aspirin or anything, it just felt like when you were a teenager and you stayed up all night and by evening the next day you were out of gas. Granted, it's different for everyone, but that was my experience and my parents as well. I received the Moderna vaccine for ref.
 

DWG

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It's important to remember that every drug has side-effects, and that even over-the-counter medications like aspirin can have lethal side-effects. I just checked out the safety leaflet for the medication I'm on, as it lives on the desk in front of me, and even with a page and a half long list of side-effects (fairly typical in my experience), it doesn't get out to the 1 in 250,000 cited for AZ today. Within that list you've got depression and anxiety at 1 in 10, mood swings and hallucinations at 1 in 100, and angina and difficulty breathing at 1 in 1000, yet it's happily in - relatively - common use. So a 1 in 250,000 risk factor isn't actually too atypical.

Unfortunately the public are bad at risk analysis, and no doubt the antivaxxers will be trying to make more of this than its worth.
A friend just reminded me the stroke risk from the pill is 1 in 25,000, 10 times that being cited from AZ.
 

Nik

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Sounds like my first one, an 'Oxford', back in mid-Feb.

Felt a bit more miserable than usual for a few days.
I was seriously disappointed I didn't get 'fevre dreams' per 'Seasonal flu' vac, as such usually spawn a scifi tale or two...

Whatever, I'm due my second in late-May, have not yet had call...
 

Flyaway

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It needs to be stressed that this is a preprint & therefore not peer reviewed.

Unexpected novel Merbecovirus discoveries in agricultural sequencing datasets from Wuhan, China

In this study we document the unexpected discovery of multiple coronaviruses and a BSL-3 pathogen in agricultural cotton and rice sequencing datasets. In particular, we have identified a novel HKU5-related Merbecovirus in a cotton dataset sequenced by the Huazhong Agricultural University in 2017. We have also found an infectious clone sequence containing a novel HKU4-related Merbecovirus related to MERS coronavirus in a rice dataset sequenced by the Huazhong Agricultural University in early 2020. Another HKU5-related Merbecovirus, as well as Japanese encephalitis virus, were identified in a cotton dataset sequenced by the Huazhong Agricultural University in 2018. An HKU3-related Betacoronavirus was found in a Mus musculus sequencing dataset from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2017. Finally, a SARS-WIV1-like Betacoronavirus was found in a rice dataset sequenced by the Fujian Agriculture and Forestry University in 2017. Using the contaminating reads we have extracted from the above datasets, we were able to assemble complete genomes of two novel coronaviruses which we disclose herein. In light of our findings, we raise concerns about biosafety protocol breaches, as indicated by our discovery of multiple dangerous human pathogens in agricultural sequencing laboratories in Wuhan and Fouzou City, China.

 

Flyaway

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I increasingly think that the AZ vaccine will be weeded out longer term from the vaccines basket, you don’t want a vaccine that people are frightened of. Other similar viral vector vaccines are not getting these kind of issues coming up. We’ve got Moderna vaccine coming up & the J&J one. From what I’ve read the J&J one will be one given to millennials especially as it’s one shot and go.

There's at least some clotting cases associated with Pfizer as well IIRC (I know that's mRNA, not viral vector), so it's possibly not something specific to AZ. I'll be very interested to see what the mechanism is when they figure it out.
Personally the people I know who’ve had the worst side effects were those after having their second Pfizer jab including one who had to be rushed to hospital and kept over nigh for observation. It took them roughly a week to recover.
 

edwest

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TomcatViP

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It needs to be stressed that this is a preprint & therefore not peer reviewed.

Unexpected novel Merbecovirus discoveries in agricultural sequencing datasets from Wuhan, China

In this study we document the unexpected discovery of multiple coronaviruses and a BSL-3 pathogen in agricultural cotton and rice sequencing datasets. In particular, we have identified a novel HKU5-related Merbecovirus in a cotton dataset sequenced by the Huazhong Agricultural University in 2017. We have also found an infectious clone sequence containing a novel HKU4-related Merbecovirus related to MERS coronavirus in a rice dataset sequenced by the Huazhong Agricultural University in early 2020. Another HKU5-related Merbecovirus, as well as Japanese encephalitis virus, were identified in a cotton dataset sequenced by the Huazhong Agricultural University in 2018. An HKU3-related Betacoronavirus was found in a Mus musculus sequencing dataset from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2017. Finally, a SARS-WIV1-like Betacoronavirus was found in a rice dataset sequenced by the Fujian Agriculture and Forestry University in 2017. Using the contaminating reads we have extracted from the above datasets, we were able to assemble complete genomes of two novel coronaviruses which we disclose herein. In light of our findings, we raise concerns about biosafety protocol breaches, as indicated by our discovery of multiple dangerous human pathogens in agricultural sequencing laboratories in Wuhan and Fouzou City, China.


Pg4 of the document:
Also, the fact that the two novel coronaviruses documented here were sequenced (and
at least one actively researched) but have not yet been published points to a pattern of
behavior of cloning and research of coronaviruses by the WIV without their
disclosure to the wider international community. Furthermore, the identification of
these sequences as contaminants in low-risk agricultural datasets indicates that these
samples may have been sequenced without notifying the sequencing institution of
their potential pathogenicity.
[...]
MERS-r CoV related
research should be a highly regulated process, conducted within high-containment
biosafety laboratories. The presence of contaminating reads of potentially human
pathogenic MERS-r CoVs within agricultural research datasets, which do not have the
same high biosafety standards or protocols as BSL3 laboratories (Klein, 2012;
Heckert and Kozlovac, 2014), presents evidence of potential significant public health
hazards associated with biosafety laboratories in Wuhan, China.
:eek:
 
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Flyaway

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PMN1

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adding that any final agreement depended on Russia providing key data to the European Medicines Agency (EMA).

Wonder how long the wait will be............
 

Hood

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There's at least some clotting cases associated with Pfizer as well IIRC (I know that's mRNA, not viral vector), so it's possibly not something specific to AZ. I'll be very interested to see what the mechanism is when they figure it out.

There been 3 cases with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine too, so this seems to be something that affects all Covid vaccines. Presumably they are triggering the same immune response triggering platelet production to form clots as the Covid virus does, but with variable risk incidence depending on how the vaccine works.
Given the greater extent of minor side effects experienced from the AZ vaccine compared to the Pfizer vaccine, perhaps its just little too harsh in its action on the immune system compared to the others?

I'm not sure that I necessarily trust the risk figures at this stage; the European figures seem a little higher, for example in early March there had been 30 cases out of 5 million doses. Only 6 days ago the MRHA were claiming 22 cases and yet yesterday the reported figure was 79, so its clear that there might be other cases yet to come to light. The Yellow Card scheme is not accurate enough to assess side-effect probabilities, so presumably the other 57 cases were found from NHS records?

Also, very few people have had their second dose so there is no data on whether this is side-effect from coming into contact with the vaccine or whether its purely a chance reaction from your immune system that could occur with either dose. If its the latter, then essentially you are doubling your odds.

Even so, as others here have pointed out, these side effect probabilities are pretty good compared to the listed serious side effects for most drugs.
But the bottom line is, the UK health authorities have delineated the risk/benefit to a specific age group and obviously there is an intrinsic risk otherwise they wouldn't both setting one. You can argue whether its foolish to go for 30 when most other nations are capping at under 60 - but then not many weeks ago Germany was declining to give AZ to anyone above 60 claiming it was less effective for that age group! So you take your pick, humans are poor risk assessors at the best of times.
 
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Flyaway

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There's at least some clotting cases associated with Pfizer as well IIRC (I know that's mRNA, not viral vector), so it's possibly not something specific to AZ. I'll be very interested to see what the mechanism is when they figure it out.

There been 3 cases with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine too, so this seems to be something that affects all Covid vaccines. Presumably they are triggering the same immune response triggering platelet production to form clots as the Covid virus does, but with variable risk incidence depending on how the vaccine works.
Given the greater extent of minor side effects experienced from the AZ vaccine compared to the Pfizer vaccine, perhaps its just little too harsh in its action on the immune system compared to the others?

I'm not sure that I necessarily trust the risk figures at this stage; the European figures seem a little higher, for example in early March there had been 30 cases out of 5 million doses. Only 6 days ago the MRHA were claiming 22 cases and yet yesterday the reported figure was 79, so its clear that there might be other cases yet to come to light. The Yellow Card scheme is not accurate enough to assess side-effect probabilities, so presumably the other 57 cases were found from NHS records?

Also, very few people have had their second dose so there is no data on whether this is side-effect from coming into contact with the vaccine or whether its purely a chance reaction from your immune system that could occur with either dose. If its the latter, then essentially you are doubling your odds.

Even so, as others here have pointed out, these side effect probabilities are pretty good compared to the listed serious side effects for most drugs.
But the bottom line is, the UK health authorities have delineated the risk/benefit to a specific age group and obviously there is an intrinsic risk otherwise they wouldn't both setting one. You can argue whether its foolish to go for 30 when most other nations are capping at under 60 - but then not many weeks ago Germany was declining to give AZ to anyone above 60 claiming it was less effective for that age group! So you take your pick, humans are poor risk assessors at the best of times.
Both the J&J & AZ as is Sputnik V viral vector vaccines. Whereas Pfizer & Moderna are mRNA vaccines.
 

Trident

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- but then not many weeks ago Germany was declining to give AZ to anyone above 60 claiming it was less effective for that age group!

No! Sorry, but this just needs to be corrected for the record, because while the decision was constantly presented that way in UK media, this is very inaccurate. The fact that German and French press initially published grossly distorted reports claiming AZ was "virtually ineffective" in old people contributed, and Macron parroting these without checking was decidedly unprofessional. IIRC "only 8% of study participants over age 55" somehow became "only 8% efficacy in people over 55" in the media, or something to that effect! At the end of the day though, this portrayal (that is to say, both of EU members' rationale in imposing initial age restrictions and AZ efficacy in older patients) is simply wrong!

What Germany (and many other local EU regulators) *actually* did was to go with a - perhaps overly - cautious interpretation of EMA's recommendation. The agency had noted that study results submitted by AZ to that date were insufficient to make a sound judgement on efficacy in people older than 55:

EMA said:
Most of the participants in these studies were between 18 and 55 years old. There are not yet enough results in older participants (over 55 years old) to provide a figure for how well the vaccine will work in this group. However, protection is expected, given that an immune response is seen in this age group and based on experience with other vaccines; as there is reliable information on safety in this population, EMA’s scientific experts considered that the vaccine can be used in older adults. More information is expected from ongoing studies, which include a higher proportion of elderly participants.

(https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-authorisation-eu)

So Germany and a number of others decided to give it to under-60s only, pending better data on older patients (which eventually arrived and confirmed efficacy in this group, resulting in a lifting of the limit). This can legitimately be criticized as an over-abundance of caution, but it was a fundamentally rational, data-driven policy which had nothing to do with any Brexit-revenge conspiracies or lack of consistency. It's the media in both the UK and the EU that really dropped the ball here (and to a lesser extent perhaps also AZ's study design, which left them exposed to such misconstruction).
 

DWG

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I am guessing this is something that will suffer from fatigue over time. A lot of people start out with great enthusiasm but I am imagine this will wane.

This is how my local was handling things anyway all through the summer, and I'd guess probably a lot of others were the same.
 

GTX

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It's frustrating that after the good job done on keeping COVID cases/deaths low overall in Australia (just over 29,000 cases and 909 deaths in total since the start of the pandemic a year or so ago), the Govt in Australia are now seemingly bungling the vaccination roll-out.
 
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edwest

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I am guessing this is something that will suffer from fatigue over time. A lot of people start out with great enthusiasm but I am imagine this will wane.

This is how my local was handling things anyway all through the summer, and I'd guess probably a lot of others were the same.


This is a case of do it right or face closure or another lock down. The Prime Minister has said that some type of health status confirmation will be "a fact of life" for international travel. This is a national defense issue, especially if something similar occurs in the future.
 

DWG

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DWG

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The Prime Minister has said that some type of health status confirmation will be "a fact of life" for international travel. This is a national defense issue, especially if something similar occurs in the future.
As QANTAS have said they'll insist on Covid vaccination for travel even if governments don't, and IATA are producing an IT system to enable it which is in trials with at least 20 airlines, it's pretty much out of the hands of national governments at this point. But IATA have said they expect many national governments will insist on vaccination as a condition of entry.

 

Flyaway

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Both the J&J & AZ as is Sputnik V viral vector vaccines. Whereas Pfizer & Moderna are mRNA vaccines.

If you dig a bit then exactly the same issues have been reported for Pfizer and Moderna as for Astra Zeneca or J&J.

Round up article on the blood clotting issue with the AZ vaccine. Again this all debunks the claims of antivaxxers that stuff like this is covered up. It also seems to clear the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines?

 

PMN1

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It seems the Sputnik vaccine delivered to Slovakia differs from the Sputnik reviewed by the EMA and the Lancet....Russia is demanding it all back due to contract violations.
 

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To be frank, the whole thing seems far too mired in politics in Slovakia to take news from there, either way, at face value. We'll just have to wait for EMA's verdict, there is no shortcut.
 

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The Prime Minister has said that some type of health status confirmation will be "a fact of life" for international travel. This is a national defense issue, especially if something similar occurs in the future.
As QANTAS have said they'll insist on Covid vaccination for travel even if governments don't, and IATA are producing an IT system to enable it which is in trials with at least 20 airlines, it's pretty much out of the hands of national governments at this point. But IATA have said they expect many national governments will insist on vaccination as a condition of entry.

ICAO has preventive legislation for that: a member state may request certain type of vaccination prior to entry.
However, embbeding Vaccination to travel documents is not permitted actually (as not being part of all the discussions leading to all the recommendations). Moreover, the spirit of facilitating and expediate travel across borders would see a global swap of documentation as a burden going opposite to ICAO core objectives.
 
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edwest

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Prior to this virus, people had to have other vaccinations to go to other countries. This is not new. And keep in mind that some people have a need/desire to upend things, and/or a "no government will tell me what to do" attitude. However, what have they chosen as their alternative? A risk to their health and the health of others. The fact is, if anyone wanted to travel in the past, certain rules were there. There need be no global swap of anything. Only those individuals engaged in international travel on any particular day getting verified and off they go.

At this point, there are only three types of people: the vaccinated, the non-vaccinated, and those who can show a negative test.

If global safety is desired then these are the options for everyone.
 

TomcatViP

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Prior to this virus, people had to have other vaccinations to go to other countries. This is not new. And keep in mind that some people have a need/desire to upend things, and/or a "no government will tell me what to do" attitude. However, what have they chosen as their alternative? A risk to their health and the health of others. The fact is, if anyone wanted to travel in the past, certain rules were there. There need be no global swap of anything. Only those individuals engaged in international travel on any particular day getting verified and off they go.

At this point, there are only three types of people: the vaccinated, the non-vaccinated, and those who can show a negative test.

If global safety is desired then these are the options for everyone.
The point is that re-issuing billions of passports globally won't take a single day.
There is also the learning curve among ground crew for a new document that would see changes simultaneously in a multitude of languages, what will slow down the flow of passengers.

More and more ICAO pushes for direct exchange of passengers data b/w states to hasten passengers flow at entry points (think also that if Vaccination is linked to travel documents, it's every commercial airport in every country that would have to be turned into an international Airport!).
Vaccination would only be one of such data and could be treated automatically though secured software.
Most vaccinations are done in vaccination center where a logistic is in place to catalogue receivers.
Most physicians are now electronically linked to state regulator when it comes to patient expenses/data.
The infrastructure is already in place, globally and would have only to be amended.
 

Flyaway

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The Brazilian senate is to launch an enquiry into the government response to the pandemic in the country as things go from bad to worse with their highest ever single day death toll.

 

Hood

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- but then not many weeks ago Germany was declining to give AZ to anyone above 60 claiming it was less effective for that age group!

No! Sorry, but this just needs to be corrected for the record, because while the decision was constantly presented that way in UK media, this is very inaccurate. The fact that German and French press initially published grossly distorted reports claiming AZ was "virtually ineffective" in old people contributed, and Macron parroting these without checking was decidedly unprofessional. IIRC "only 8% of study participants over age 55" somehow became "only 8% efficacy in people over 55" in the media, or something to that effect! At the end of the day though, this portrayal (that is to say, both of EU members' rationale in imposing initial age restrictions and AZ efficacy in older patients) is simply wrong!

What Germany (and many other local EU regulators) *actually* did was to go with a - perhaps overly - cautious interpretation of EMA's recommendation. The agency had noted that study results submitted by AZ to that date were insufficient to make a sound judgement on efficacy in people older than 55:
That is a fair point, the media coverage has been distortive and both sides at the time were engaged in a political tug of war over Brexit and vaccine shortages.

My point was that the knowledge of the risks change over time, we are at the beginning of a potentially very long vaccination programme and things evolve fairly rapidly, which does not inspire public confidence and which political and media interference only makes worse. In six months time there might be a whole new set of risk factors that alter everything again. We have no crystal ball.
 

Flyaway

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You want to know the power of vaccines then see this they’ve already saved the lives of over 10,000 over sixties in the U.K. alone. Sorry to go on a rant but it’s stuff like this as to why I can’t stand anti vaxxers and science deniers. Especially as these very same people are often only alive because of science in numerous ways. Over the coming years there will be millions of people still alive because of COVID vaccines so how can you be possibly against them unless you’re completely irrational, oh wait...

 

edwest

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Prior to this virus, people had to have other vaccinations to go to other countries. This is not new. And keep in mind that some people have a need/desire to upend things, and/or a "no government will tell me what to do" attitude. However, what have they chosen as their alternative? A risk to their health and the health of others. The fact is, if anyone wanted to travel in the past, certain rules were there. There need be no global swap of anything. Only those individuals engaged in international travel on any particular day getting verified and off they go.

At this point, there are only three types of people: the vaccinated, the non-vaccinated, and those who can show a negative test.

If global safety is desired then these are the options for everyone.
The point is that re-issuing billions of passports globally won't take a single day.
There is also the learning curve among ground crew for a new document that would see changes simultaneously in a multitude of languages, what will slow down the flow of passengers.

More and more ICAO pushes for direct exchange of passengers data b/w states to hasten passengers flow at entry points (think also that if Vaccination is linked to travel documents, it's every commercial airport in every country that would have to be turned into an international Airport!).
Vaccination would only be one of such data and could be treated automatically though secured software.
Most vaccinations are done in vaccination center where a logistic is in place to catalogue receivers.
Most physicians are now electronically linked to state regulator when it comes to patient expenses/data.
The infrastructure is already in place, globally and would have only to be amended.


The goal is not to reissue passports. The goal is to prevent the spread of disease. Commercial carriers will automatically deny tickets to anyone wanting to go to a prohibited area. It can be compared to a wartime situation and no-fly zones.
 

DWG

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The point is that re-issuing billions of passports globally won't take a single day.
There's an app for that.

IATA already have their phone-based Travel Pass app in trials with multiple airlines. Apparently they and ICAO have come out against actually using it - as WHO opposes vaccine passports, but it's there and ready to roll if needed.

IIRC - couple of months since I delved into the details - it's set up so it can either take information from central government or from the individual user, down to screenshots of appropriate documents. Which makes it somewhat more standardised than things like Yellow Fever vaccination checks.
 

edwest

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Not everyone has a smart phone. Paper documents will be used in those cases.

Also, some people 65 and over do not know how to navigate websites or have a computer. So seniors in the US have to contend with poorly designed websites and interpret/guess certain aspects. It would be most helpful if Public Service Announcements would appear on TV and be broadcast on the radio. It worked during the Cold War.
 
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TomcatViP

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The point is that re-issuing billions of passports globally won't take a single day.
There's an app for that.

IATA already have their phone-based Travel Pass app in trials with multiple airlines. Apparently they and ICAO have come out against actually using it - as WHO opposes vaccine passports, but it's there and ready to roll if needed.

IIRC - couple of months since I delved into the details - it's set up so it can either take information from central government or from the individual user, down to screenshots of appropriate documents. Which makes it somewhat more standardised than things like Yellow Fever vaccination checks.
Screenshot won't help. Ground crews are not trained officers and the variety of languages and doc scanned will be a nightmare.
Any solution that is not a centralized database would have to be commune to all countries willing to participate. I don't think that state base organizations have the intelectual trained capacity to do that.

Market on the contrary is expert at selling single form product globally through marketing study and campaign... Let them do what they do best.
 

edwest

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It seems to me that aside from language problems, which the private sector is already familiar with, is a highly secure way to avoid fraud. Sadly, the internet is not getting more secure and identity theft is of great concern in the US.
 

DWG

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The point is that re-issuing billions of passports globally won't take a single day.
There's an app for that.

IATA already have their phone-based Travel Pass app in trials with multiple airlines. Apparently they and ICAO have come out against actually using it - as WHO opposes vaccine passports, but it's there and ready to roll if needed.

IIRC - couple of months since I delved into the details - it's set up so it can either take information from central government or from the individual user, down to screenshots of appropriate documents. Which makes it somewhat more standardised than things like Yellow Fever vaccination checks.
Screenshot won't help. Ground crews are not trained officers and the variety of languages and doc scanned will be a nightmare.
Any solution that is not a centralized database would have to be commune to all countries willing to participate. I don't think that state base organizations have the intelectual trained capacity to do that.

Market on the contrary is expert at selling single form product globally through marketing study and campaign... Let them do what they do best.
Remember, they're already successfully doing this for existing vaccinations with the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, there's plenty of evidence the system can work if required.
 

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