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Convair P6Y

Skybolt

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Also known as the last Navy seaplane (which is wrong, since there were alot of activities going on for years after the P6Y concellation).
Convair won the competion in 1956/7 to substitute the Martn P5M ASW seaplane. The designer was Hans Amtmann, of Blohm und Voss fame, who went on a cruise in a US submarine to look first hand at the problems in hunting a sub by plane (very German-style , I'd say). Specs were: lenght 36.90 m; span 38.86 m; wing area 232.25 sqm; engines: 3 Wright 3350-32W. I have also an internal arrangement plan, BUT, since they come from a book I STRONGLY recommend (Vanishing Paperclips, Monogram), I'll post only the model photos and the 3-views. For the rest, go and buy ;D
No, Monogram doesn't pay me (sigh).
Forgot: competitors were Martin (model 313, AKA as P7M) and possibly Boeing. Anyone has details/info?
 

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TinWing

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Skybolt said:
The designer was Hans Amtmann, of Blohm und Voss fame, who went on a cruise in a US submarine to look first hand at the problems in hunting a sub by plane (very German-style , I'd say).

Very German style indeed.

Three engines, cantalever wing, etc.

It looks like a Dornier Do-24. Oddly enough, Dornier equipped one their tri-engined flying boats with Pratt&Whitney turboprops...in the 1980s. They didn't sell any, not unsurprisingly.
 

Sentinel Chicken

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TinWing said:
It looks like a Dornier Do-24. Oddly enough, Dornier equipped one their tri-engined flying boats with Pratt&Whitney turboprops...in the 1980s. They didn't sell any, not unsurprisingly.
Wasn't the Do-24TT really just a flying testbed to validate the wing planned for the Do-328 turboprop?
 

frank

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ISTR reading of a proposal in the '60s or '70s to fit the Do-24 with 2 P & W R-2800s for some specification. Maybe Spain?


TinWing said:
Skybolt said:
The designer was Hans Amtmann, of Blohm und Voss fame, who went on a cruise in a US submarine to look first hand at the problems in hunting a sub by plane (very German-style , I'd say).

Very German style indeed.

Three engines, cantalever wing, etc.

It looks like a Dornier Do-24. Oddly enough, Dornier equipped one their tri-engined flying boats with Pratt&Whitney turboprops...in the 1980s. They didn't sell any, not unsurprisingly.
 

Skybolt

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Found a photo of the Martin P7M mock-up. From Martin Aircraft, Narkiewicz/Thompson Publ.
 

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devi

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General Dynamics/Convair Model 24-------------XP6Y-1
Martin Model M-313-----------------------------------XP7M-1
 

Orionblamblam

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Where oh where have I seen detailed, attractive and affordably priced drawings of this before...
adwg3ani.gif

adwg3ad.gif

Hmmm...
http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocair.htm#airdwg3
 

fightingirish

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CONVAIR P6Y ASW WARFARE FLYING BOAT PROPOSAL

The missions for this airplane in order of importance were as follows:
1.) Detect, locate and destroy submarines.
2.) Perform barrier patrols, convoy escort, hold down, hunter/killer operations, and area search.
3.) In a search and rescue configuration, rescue personnel from the sea.

The P6Y was to be powered by 3 Pratt & Whitney R3350-32W engines with two General Electric YJ85-GE-1 turbojets mounted in the rear engine nacelle of the center engine. The aircraft was to be equipped with a MAD boom.
[Attached Images defunct due to copyright issues & forum rules!]

Source: Convair XP5Y-1 & R3Y-1/2 Tradewind by Steve Ginter, Ginter Books, Simi Valley, 1996
 

foiling

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I have this general arrangement in E R Johnson's "American Flying Boats & Amphibians" (2009). In my opinion this is an excellent book for anyone with an interest in this topic, and it includes a substantial chapter on projects. All aircraft mentioned in the book are covered by a breif account, as well as technical data, usually a black-&-white photo, and a good 3-view drawing. I am not an expert on .... well anything .... but I thoroughly recommend it.
 

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frank

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I can't find that title, but found this one. "American Flying Boats and Amphibious Aircraft". Are they the same book?



foiling said:
I have this general arrangement in E R Johnson's "American Flying Boats & Amphibians" (2009). In my opinion this is an excellent book for anyone with an interest in this topic, and it includes a substantial chapter on projects. All aircraft mentioned in the book are covered by a breif account, as well as technical data, usually a black-&-white photo, and a good 3-view drawing. I am not an expert on .... well anything .... but I thoroughly recommend it.
 

LowObservable

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The P6Y looks very like a boat that appears on my notepad during boring meetings.

Related subject: Are there any sources on the relationship (if any) between the P6Y/P7M and the ShinMaywa boats? Both the original CONOPS (ocean landing to use dunking sonar) and technology (BLC with separate GE turbine engine) are very similar.

According to the Beriev site, the A-40 was also designed as a sea-sitter.

Cool video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LKAh3KpmtI
 

foiling

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My apologies; yes you have the correct title - it is 'amphibious aircraft'. God, I yearn for a spell-check that leans over one's shoulder.
 

saturncanuck

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foiling said:
My apologies; yes you have the correct title - it is 'amphibious aircraft'. God, I yearn for a spell-check that leans over one's shoulder.

Although I use the spell-check in WordPerfect, there is nothing better than a dictionary....
 

lark

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If I'm correct Foiling,there should be a separate chapter in the book about
projected designs.
Have you an idea which are described ?
Thanks in advance.
 

foiling

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Wow, two statements that beg a response, just when I felt like the village idiot again for trying to share something interesting. First, it's great to know that among a clearly very bright bunch of guys, someone still loves the dictionary. I play Scrabble at competition level, so a dictionary is a very precious possession, and my e-mail spell-check only understands French - I have no idea why. Frank, thanks, I feel less stupid, although an amphibian, to me, is always a frog (unless it's been kissed).
But, seriously, the book is constructed thus: Part 1: 1912 - 1928; Part 2: 1928 - 1945; Part 3: 1945 - present. Appendix 1: lesser known ....; Appendix 2: design concepts: Appendix 3: glossaries.
In appendix 2 (pp 336 onwards) you'll find Bel Geddes 4, Boeing Model 320 & Model 326, Sikorsky 45, Consolidated XPB3Y-1, Consolidated Pan Am project, Convair Skate, Edo Model 150, Convair XP6Y, Grumman G-132, Martin P7M Submaster, Convair Model 37, Martin M-193, Convair Supersonic Attack Seaplane, all covered in detail, and a couple others not illustrated.
In the main section of the book some of my favourites include Martin Seamaster, Martin Mars (both versions), Hughes H-4, Convair Sea Dart (2 versions), Convair Tradewind (2 versions), and Boeing 314, to name only a few.
 

frank

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I guess 'amphibian' just depends upon its context during discussion. In my part of the USA, we have quite a few 'amphibs', as they're usually referred. Funny thing, in southern Louisiana, not far from me, a swamp or other body of water could have a couple of different 'amphibians' in it. A Cessna 185 on amphibious floats & some amphibious reptiles! Thanks for clarifying the title, I found one & have it on order. I hope it has decent info on the P7M.



foiling said:
Wow, two statements that beg a response, just when I felt like the village idiot again for trying to share something interesting. First, it's great to know that among a clearly very bright bunch of guys, someone still loves the dictionary. I play Scrabble at competition level, so a dictionary is a very precious possession, and my e-mail spell-check only understands French - I have no idea why. Frank, thanks, I feel less stupid, although an amphibian, to me, is always a frog (unless it's been kissed).
But, seriously, the book is constructed thus: Part 1: 1912 - 1928; Part 2: 1928 - 1945; Part 3: 1945 - present. Appendix 1: lesser known ....; Appendix 2: design concepts: Appendix 3: glossaries.
In appendix 2 (pp 336 onwards) you'll find Bel Geddes 4, Boeing Model 320 & Model 326, Sikorsky 45, Consolidated XPB3Y-1, Consolidated Pan Am project, Convair Skate, Edo Model 150, Convair XP6Y, Grumman G-132, Martin P7M Submaster, Convair Model 37, Martin M-193, Convair Supersonic Attack Seaplane, all covered in detail, and a couple others not illustrated.
In the main section of the book some of my favourites include Martin Seamaster, Martin Mars (both versions), Hughes H-4, Convair Sea Dart (2 versions), Convair Tradewind (2 versions), and Boeing 314, to name only a few.
 

Stargazer2006

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If you dig into the beginnings of aviation, and look carefully at Curtiss, Wright, Aeromarine or Burgess aircraft, you'll find that the distinction was quite clear from the start: a float-planes was a land-based aircraft resting on underwing floats, a flying-boat was a hull type, and an amphibian was a flying-boat that could operated from water or land.
 

lark

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Thanks for the additional info Foiling.The book is on my 'to buy' list..
 

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"..an amphibian was a flying-boat that could operated from water or land."

Nevertheless I would call a Cessna Caravan on floats, that house a retractable
landing gear an amphibian. To me it's just the possibilty to operate from land
and water, that makes an amphibian, not the type of fuselage. Cessna, too calls
it an amphibian with "dual-purpose floats" .
But I agree, that type is quite rare, compared to amphious flying boats.
 

Stargazer2006

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Agreed. I didn't mention these because they came later on in history. Just like floatplanes can also be single main float under fuselage with additional small floats at the wingtips, and these also are not so common (Northrop N-3PB, Curtiss Seahawk, Japanese "Norm" and a few others).

So amphibian means both land and water capability, but with the capacity to land on the wheel gear. That's why I think a float plane or a flying boat with wheels used only for taxiing would not qualify as an amphibian.
 

frank

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I'd venture to say that amphibious float equipped airplanes outnumber amphibious flying boats by far now-a-days. The majority of amphibs used in swamplands & for bush flying are float equipped airplanes as opposed to flying boats. Whether they're amphibious or not, I'm sure Cessnas & DeHavillands on floats are much more numerous than flying boats. Also, IIRC, Grumman considered their Albatross a 'tri-phibian', since it could operate on land on the wheels, water on its hull & ice on its hull.


Jemiba said:
"..an amphibian was a flying-boat that could operated from water or land."

Nevertheless I would call a Cessna Caravan on floats, that house a retractable
landing gear an amphibian. To me it's just the possibilty to operate from land
and water, that makes an amphibian, not the type of fuselage. Cessna, too calls
it an amphibian with "dual-purpose floats" .
But I agree, that type is quite rare, compared to amphious flying boats.
 

Jemiba

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We're straying OT, but you're right with regards to numbers and nowadays types, too,
I think. I was thinking of amphibians (aircraft, not frogs) in general and had all those
Convair Catalinas, Martin Mariners (both types), Grumman Gooses and Widgeons in mind.
Nevertheless, calling the Albatross a "Tri-phibian" is just a PR trick, I think, that could have
been used for the Dornier Wal or He 115, too. A true Tri-phibian would be something like the
Dassault Trifibium design or another of those submersible aircraft, I think. Or perhaps an aircraft,
that can digg itself through the ground ? :D
 

frank

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I just got my copy of "American Flying Boats and Amphibious Aircraft" from eBay. For those interested in a number of unbuilt or project a/c, this book is pretty informative, but the best thing is, it has 3 view drawings of a number of them, including the elusive P7M. I've looked for a 3 view of the P7M for years! How accurate, I dunno, but they're done by Lloyd S. Jones. The 3 view makes me think of a 4 engined evolution of a Grumman Albatross rather than a relative of the P6M, but I'm grateful nonetheless.
 

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I just came across these scans I made at NARA back in 2014 of the Convair Model 44. Not perfect scans,
you do what you can do.These scans were done with a book style overhead scanner. The dark areas are
caused by the blocks that were used to hold the drawing "more of less" flat during the scan.

Here are the general arrangement views.
 

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Bill S

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Another interesting view, especially to potential modelers or artists is this view of fuselage stringers and station numbers.
 

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Bill S

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A final couple of drawings.

This time the flight controls diagram.
And one I found really interesting was the
Boundary Layer Control Diagram.
 

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Ray

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Off-topic: I use Grammarly although it doesn't know what an aeroplane is.
 

aim9xray

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Bill S said:
I just came across these scans I made at NARA back in 2014 of the Convair Model 44. Not perfect scans, you do what you can do.These scans were done with a book style overhead scanner. The dark areas are caused by the blocks that were used to hold the drawing "more of less" flat during the scan.

Hmmm. Fixable, not a fatal error.

Thanks for the scans Bill!
 

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Bill S

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Bill S said:
I just came across these scans I made at NARA back in 2014 of the Convair Model 44. Not perfect scans,
you do what you can do.These scans were done with a book style overhead scanner. The dark areas are
caused by the blocks that were used to hold the drawing "more of less" flat during the scan.

Here are the general arrangement views.

Mistake on my part it is of course a Model 24 not 44. I got the 44 by mistake while looking at Bradley's Convair Advanced Designs book
Sorry if it caused any confusion.

bill
 

hesham

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From a member;

the Convair P6Y was NOT an amphibian, but strictly a flying-boat. Its wheel gear was only meant for beaching out of water, entering water on an ramp and taxiing autonomously on tarmac, in order to avoid the need for a crane or a separate beaching chassis that needed to be attached /detached each time (cf Martin P6M), and hence to reduce the demand on ground crew and equipment. This gear could not be used for taking off from or landing onto a runway and was not stressed for that, only to support the weight of the aircraft on the ground. The Shin-Meiwa PS-1 had the same configuration ; its US-1 successor is a true amphibian and photos clearly show that US-1 wheel gear (tires, wheels, legs etc.) are much sturdier, bulkier and larger.
 
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